30 replies to this topic

[Bigbacon]

why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

If the team doesn't move around the map and/or re-position to attack smaller groups then you lose most of the time.

if people could just grasp that and move together your chances of winning go WAY up and your chances of have a good round go WAY up...

All moving to one small area and standing there means the enemy can move around you all they want and just crush you.

[InspectorG]

^This.

Team drops is a game of pushes. Doing so without VOIP is hard.

Solo drops a game of peek-a-boo.
This doesnt mean hide behind your favorite rock and peek all match. Basically, if you go to the same well more than twice, you get popped. And trading armor this way until one of you starts hobbling back to base is not a good use of firepower.
The idea is to advance behind cover and peek-a-boo along the way until you and some teammates find a lone opponent and gang him.
Hiding in Solo is more viable because: trying to herd cats. Sometimes pugmates push with you, usually not. It usually turns into an attrition match until a team gets a 3-4 mech lead then the snowball gets going. OR, which ever team sucks LESS.
Team drop you should always be moving with mates so you all can converge on some unlucky fool.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Sticking together is a basic lesson in any sort of team-based gaming. It's amazing that people still fail to understand how it works. I think a lot of pilots turn their brains off and just follow the nearest 'Mech until they see red doritos.

[RustyBolts]

I disagree. The situation dictates the tactic. We had a multi grouped team drop against a 12 man on Tourmalin. Instead of trying to chat coordinate 4 teams against a voice commanded 12 man while moving and attacking, we decided to take up a defensive position with only 3 avenues of approach.

We stayed together and stayed paitent while the 12 man spent 10 minutes trying to get us to rush them, sniping us and probing our positions.

Finally around the 12 minute mark they decided to rush us, but we were ready and decimated them winning 12-4. Moving is not always the answer.

On the flip side just this morning I had a match at Alpine peaks where several of us did not sit on the mountain and wait. We saw they were still spread out and pushed forward off the mountain crushing them one lance at a time winning 12-2.

Situation will always dictate the tactic.

[HlynkaCG]

RustyBolts, on 22 October 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Situation will always dictate the tactic.

What he said ^

Edited by HlynkaCG, 22 October 2014 - 03:35 AM.

[Nightmare1]

The team that is aggressive is normally the team that is the victor. If your team keeps moving and keeps pushing, then you deny Red Team the initiative and force it to receive. Once you have convinced the enemy that they cannot push, and can only receive, then you have defeated them. They will become stagnant and watch for your moves, believing that if they make you come to them, then they can win. A defensive mentality typically makes players complacent. However, if you push hard enough or from different directions, then you can panic them and cause them to play poorly.

Maintaining the initiative also enables you to control the battle. Red Team may sink in to defend a strong position, but they become immobile. Your team's aggressiveness forces them to maintain that position, and a couple of good sniper/skirmishers can convince them that there is an impending attack on their front. They often never see the flanking maneuver coming until it is too late.

Overall, being aggressive is the best tactic when your entire team follows suit. A strong push can demoralize and enemy, causing some to break and run, and others to panic and lose focus. I can't count the number of times that I've been in a situation where my team sat around and got stomped. After my Mech dies, I spectate, only to see spectacles like a friendly Heavy losing his cool and trying to run from enemy Lights or Meds, Assault pilots panicking and overheating their Mechs, Lights running to hide, etc.

It all really just goes to show that a strong offense really is the best defense. Besides, if you're busy moving, it's a lot harder to get hit by arties.

[Chuck Jager]

As a pretty new player to this game, I have learned that many people in pugs will wait until they see at least a 3 kill lead before pushing because the numbers will be on their side and will be reflected in their score. I have had great games where 2-4 of us figure out how to flank or push through a side and once that count comes up it is a rush to get the kills because everybody is all over it. It is also a fact that with the matchmaking and scouting the 3 kill lead may be 1 disconnect a very bad/unlucky scout and the Dwhale that got left behind. I have had almost zero luck saying " ton of LRMS need 4-5 to make aggressive flank". A split group is very bad, I am asking to work as a group to apply pressure against a known weakspot - it is not like they changed the maps or the mindset of the average PUG in the last 48hrs. It is frustrating that folks run straight towards the same place every time and choose the same hidey holes and the outcome is decided by the mix of who got the 2-3 very good or 2-3 very "new" pilots that should not be facing each other.

Honestly if you have a chance of loosing because of odds outside your control -why do people think you are an idiot for saying everybody retreat to back of map and lets take the long way around and see what happens. If I am going to be clobbered again, I want to at least have it be in a different location.

I think it was easier to convince folks that the earth was not flat

[3xnihilo]

I have hit a rash of these lately (worse than usual it seems). Where even when our team gets up numbers I still find myself all alone in a commando/spider against their last 3 mechs while all the blue triangles are close by but still clinging to their rock. But I tend to get into more trouble being too aggressive (I am always sure I can make that strafing run through 7 enemies ) because I am not patient enough.

[zudukai]

speed is always the answer; out pace, out position, out preform. isolate and remove, pressure and pretend. always know your ground and never overcommit.

[Kahadras]

I must say it's a bit frustrating when other players don't move when there's an oppertunity. Yesterday I was engaging at least four enemy mechs in my Raven. OK I was taking hits but I was confident in the knowledge that a 35 ton mech had pulled over 200 tons of mech out of the game for a conciderable length of time. While I was ducking and weaving the rest of my team conspired to sit around and wait for the enemy to come to them. End result was the mechs gunning for me lost interest and went after the rest of my team with predicable results.

Edited by Kahadras, 29 October 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[L Y N X]

The problems being addressed here is when part of the team moves and part stays put. One part loses, then the other part loses, this will nearly always create Stomps...

[YueFei]

When deciding to flank, don't take the looong way around with the faster mechs and leave the slower mechs there to die against 2-to-1 odds.

If you're gonna flank, make it happen close by, make it happen fast. If you can't do that, and you wanna reposition, it's better to let the big boys start moving first. Move in stages, so all elements of the team maintain mutual support throughout the maneuver.

Don't isolate yourselves, don't separate the team into pieces that can't support each other.

[White Bear 84]

Bigbacon, on 20 October 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

If the team doesn't move around the map and/or re-position to attack smaller groups then you lose most of the time.

if people could just grasp that and move together your chances of winning go WAY up and your chances of have a good round go WAY up...

All moving to one small area and standing there means the enemy can move around you all they want and just crush you.

Can we make this a tip on the loading screen? Seriously, this the best advice for teams. It is 100% on the ball. And the most annoying thing in game, after team mate clipping your mech....

ArtyomBrusilov, on 20 October 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

Sticking together is a basic lesson in any sort of team-based gaming. It's amazing that people still fail to understand how it works. I think a lot of pilots turn their brains off and just follow the nearest 'Mech until they see red doritos.

Mmmm, doritos. Much cheesier!

Edited by White Bear 84, 29 October 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

Getting your team to have the initiative to move is one thing, but the bigger issue is teams don't know how to move. I find a lot of teams on Caustic Valley move way ahead of their assaults and lose by a pretty huge margin.

[HimseIf]

What bugs me is when they hide behind a rock from LRMs and then a trial blackjack walks up behind them and snipers them all to death with a medium laser and they lose 12-0. Trial blackjack every time. Must love his deathstar achievement.
Moving can be good!

Edited by HimseIf, 30 October 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Zordicron]

There are a few issues at play:

Assault LRM boats. They don;t want to move, they dont want to follow even most of the time. Unfortunatly, many pug team mates will instinctively hang out by thr assault mechs(not actually bad). So, unfortunatly, when this happens, the whole team gets freegin stomped because LRM boat bads(not always bad, but I have had my fill of them) pull a double whammy with camping assault+no way to get to cover or defend themselves against the inevitable enemy flank. The only way I have seen a way to mitigate this is to move far enough away from camping crew, wait. When enemy starts to come, you will be front line, or if they come from the other side, you can set up a crossfire to try to keep them pinned, buy some time, and cross fingers some of them either show their backs to you trying to get LRM boats, OR stay out in the open long enough the LRM boats can get some licks in on them. basically, use camping LRM boats as bait. It only works maybe 30% though, because the LRM boats are taking assault slots usually, so you have a disadvantage in tonnage for brawls/support fire.

Secondly, following chat directions is mostly miss, with occasional hits. Tonight I had 2 matches of note, one in my Misery, another in a DWF. Misery match, Caustic: Got team to mostly follow me around on a flank move. Enemy had left behind about 5 mechs, but they were big mechs, LRM atlas S, a HGN, a jager, and some others, I think a TBR, for sure a Nova. I came around corner, put an alpha into the atlas S lrm boat. backed away slightly around cover corner to wait for weapon cooldown. Nova appears around rock, I alpha his LT, team mates blow him apart. Alright I think, now we got something. I move forward, put two more alphas into Atlas LRM boat. Nobody else is shooting it, they start shooting at the jager Waaaaaay across the way. I am taking heavy fire, dealing out what I can, get atlas S CT down to orange internals, blow ST off TBR that had stepped in front of him, and got a shot in with half my lasers(other half wre blown off) on HGN before going down. I tell team, "Atlas is almost cored! finish it off!" No one took a single shot at it, and they actually retreated! We had them outnumbered, and they pulled back. Atlas LRM boat was then free for the remainder of match to lob missiles over hill from safety and racked up 800+ dmg and 3 kills because nobody could put a pair of PPC into is fat torso. In the mean time, team scrambled all over, couldnt fight effectively because of incoming missiles warnings and in general got peek a boo'd to death from missile spotters and fast lights. It was annoying to say the least.

DWF match was on River City, I had taken my quad AC10 wolf up onto platform where enemy mostly was defending. Half my team got their first, but were sort of chickening out without fatty support, and were pinned in a little. I moved in, cored a crow, moved up, team was right there with me. jager with AC2/5's was by aireplane, I picked off his foot that he left exposed, he backed away with red internal leg. Spider was hiding on other side of fence from me, keeping me in ecm disrupt, but too chicken to run. I coulnt flush him, because 2 guass wolf were to the rear of plane. When one of my team mates showed themselves, they both fired(only one slug of 4 actually hit team mate that was just baiting them). i moved out, and DPS AC10'd one of them down, took slugs though doing it. Backed off, cooled down. jager got peepy again, put some ML into his torso, he backed away. Team was getting antsy and pushing, so I moved out, took on other guass wolf. I got half his mech, took out a ST and got his CT into exposed internals, he took me down(had some help). I type into chat "DWF is almost cored! finish it off!" Nothing.

So then, shortly after "finish it off or let him blow you apart, your choice". Nothing. And he did, he ended with 5 kills and 1000+ dmg, mostly with half a mech, that had exposed internals on CT. we had them outnumbered(after I went down) 5 to 3, we were smaller, but they had a legged jager with long range guns, half a DWF, and a ECM spider with a missing arm. All 3 of those mechs were alive at match end, because team basically turned around and fled because some mech was lobbing LRM from upper city.

Really, the amount of hiding in pug matches is astounding, and usually leads to the losses. It really does come down to the team that is mobile and seizes the opportunity when the enemy leaves a few players on the fringes, wins. Camping kills, and I make sure I tell my teams that die that way that exact message. Sit in one place=sitting ducks, waiting for the enemy to flank and surround you.

Unfortunatly, I have this feeling the only people that will see this thread will be players that don't need to. One can only hope the people like me that point out the camping and how the enemy flanked can show the newer players the folly of putting it in Park.

[CaptainDeez]

Move or lose isn't the only strategy. Some maps reward defensive posistions. The center of HPG Manifold comes to mind where holding the top gives you an LRM shield and a line of sight on the most of the outside, or the top of Alpine. It's probably impossible to get a PUG to move with you. But you can sometimes get them to camp an effective area which can work just as well.

[Benjamin Davion]

What never ceases to amaze me is watching 6 or 7 mechs turtle up in one spot, and one by one, they getted picked off my a rain of noobtubes. One by one by one... and no one ever moves... they just stand there and die, one by one... Drives me absolutely bonkers.

[RustyBolts]

Benjamin Davion, on 07 November 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

What never ceases to amaze me is watching 6 or 7 mechs turtle up in one spot, and one by one, they getted picked off my a rain of noobtubes. One by one by one... and no one ever moves... they just stand there and die, one by one... Drives me absolutely bonkers.

Then they come to the forums to QQ about how OP LRMS are.

[Yosharian]

Except when your 'move' strategy leaves behind a lance of Dire Wolves & Atlases to die horribly

"Omfg stupid Dire Wolf why aren't you keeping up with our 80kph push strategy?"