24 replies to this topic

[Tatula]

Instead of nerf'ing the Clan XL engine (making them lose power when the side torsos are damaged), how about buff'ing the IS XL engine?

What I mean is, let's make the IS mechs with XL engine not die when side torso is breached. Instead make them lose power (25% with is side torso, 50% with both side torso) like it was proposed as a nerf to Clan engines.

Probably lots of Pros and Cons, but one result is that IS mechs with XL engine won't be as easy to kill as it is now, which will make battles last a little longer. IS lights will benefit, but hopefully hit registration will get better and they'll lose some of that lag armor. IS mediums will be much more viable, and IS heavies and assaults with XL's won't be so fragile.

Discuss?

[EvilCow]

Interesting proposal but I think that an engine with destroyed parts should have some drawbacks.

May be it is possible to think at a mixed solution, clan engines would only lose 20% of speed and 2 internal heat sinks, IS engines would lose 60% of speed and 6 internal heat sinks (which pretty much equates to a dead mech anyway).

[Angel of Annihilation]

Actually I was just thinking this myself while driving to work today.

First, everyone likes a buff so if you were just to buff IS XLs to what they plan to nerf Clan XLs to, ie loss of a ST add extra heat and reduces speed, then they end up with balance without pissing off everyone who spent money on clan (including myself).

Also like I said, everyone likes a buff. IS players would be jumping for joy at getting a major buff to IS mechs.


Also it can be pointed out to those still not happy with the fact that Clan XLs still have an advantage, that Clans were always going to have an advantage and to just be happy that IS mechs got a major buff.

Seems like a major win-win to me.

[Maggiman]

Wouldn't that make the IS Std pretty much a niche choice? I mean there are a lot mechs with an XL already (And wasn't XL meant to be a rather modern and special thing?)
One example: Unless you want an ac20 in a Hunchback you have a lot pros and cons for the XL. With your proposal it literally boils down to AC20?No?XL!

I really hate nerfing the clans and would have wished for more lateral thinking.But I don't think buffing IS is better

[Firemage]

Maybe a better idea would be to allow CT engine crits to be hit which would make it easier for someone to take a clan side torso and then just do a bit of damage to the CT engine for the kill. Clans would still have a slight edge but losing a Side would still make you much easier to kill with just one engine crit remaining.

[Christof Romulus]

Nah, let's nerf the clans. =-P

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, the idea sounds cool and all. It is a nice compromise, but then we end up going down the same path as Planetside 2, where we have 2 different armies, that are supposed to be very different, but due to nerfs, QQ and everything else, we end up with 2 armies that are largely identical....eliminating any differentiating features between Clan and IS....

Might as well get to calling the army in this game the Clanners Sphere....

Cuz thats the bonus to Clans, XLs that dont kill the mech, thats the penalty to IS for running one. Perhaps it shouldnt kill the mech in the name of fun...but meh....I dont dig the idea of giving the IS clan bonuses, just as much as I wouldnt really want to see the Clans running around with w/e bonuses the IS have, PPFLD ACs?. Which I cant really think of any, never did like IS equipment..always was so inferior...

Clans already have longer durations, swarm LRMS that are easy to AMS, slower lights, hotter weapons, slow ass Streak SRMs...burst ACs. Meh...

[Sundervine]

Why is this even an issue, as always the boardgame already took care of this.
1st engine critical hit, +5 heat, second critical hit, +10 heat.
Since there are two not three engine crit locations in the clan xl engines per side, just give them +10 heat. In the already hot clan mechs that would be disasterous.

Mechwarrior fans really should go check out all the actual rules in BT since every single balance issue in the game was already taken care of there. Even real time combat. Yes they even stated how long the reload times are on all the weapons with a sub 10 second times table. Happened like 15 years ago.

[General Taskeen]

In Mech Warrior 2, when you lose both torso's in a Clan Mech, your Mech's total speed is reduced up to almost 50% instead of just dying. I would have to check again, but heat might become more of an issue too (as per TT).

I proposed something similar a while ago, that losing torso's should not destroy a Mech outright depending on if it is an IS XL or Clan XL, instead other drawbacks should occur such as highly reduced top speed and reduced torso twist.

The major thing about previous MW games is that they went away with the XL engine destruction crit rules for the better, and added other draw backs instead which were similar to TT. Over all, it means a Mech can stay in the fight longer and TTK was way longer.

The major advantage of simply using a Standard engine would then be no speed loss and no torso twist speed loss and no loss of engine heat sinks, etc.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 September 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The Clan XL is only getting a heat penalty on side torso loss, I'm pretty sure it is not getting a performance drop.

The Clans do need some penalty from s side torso loss, we can start at the loss of heat sinks first. It might be enough just doing that.

Eventually IS XL engines will probably receive engine critical hits that destroy heat sinks as well (no side torso armor with exposed side torso internals). Once that happens, the balancing might need to be revisited.

For now, heat sink destruction on Clan XL is probably good enough.

[Jacob Side]

Terrible idea.
'Cause all the BT Lore.

[FupDup]

Clan XL penalties of some sort should have been added BEFORE all of the various heat nerfs to the weapons. We might have been able to have much lower heat nerfs to the guns themselves, or in some cases no nerf might be necessary at all.

I think the penalty should just be heat, however, because speed might end up hurting a few mechs that don't really need it (such as both of the lights).

[Pacifist]

What you've suggested can be bacicly summed up as lets Power Creep. Before the clans there was a balance between XL and Standard engine types. One gave you tonnage one gave you survivability. The clans give you both.

The solution isn't to make everything the same. It's to find an asymetrical balance. The easiest way would be battle value rather than equal tonnage Clan vs IS. As they've appearently decided they cannot reduce the number of clan mechs per side.

[Firemage]

Sundervine, on 29 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Why is this even an issue, as always the boardgame already took care of this.
1st engine critical hit, +5 heat, second critical hit, +10 heat.
Since there are two not three engine crit locations in the clan xl engines per side, just give them +10 heat. In the already hot clan mechs that would be disasterous.

Mechwarrior fans really should go check out all the actual rules in BT since every single balance issue in the game was already taken care of there. Even real time combat. Yes they even stated how long the reload times are on all the weapons with a sub 10 second times table. Happened like 15 years ago.

The heat will be a slightly smaller issue since your still losing a ST and Arm worth of weapons. But going with the TT answer might be best given how punishing the MWO heat system is anyway.

[Tatula]

OK... so the main complaint so far is that the idea deviates from LORE. But there seems to be already a bunch of stuff in MWO that departs from a strict TT translation (I apologize for never playing the TT version of Battletech). Ghost Heat, ECM implementation, etc. I just hate to see more nerf's coming to the Clan.

How about making IS side torsos like the legs? Lose one ST, lose 50% power/heat dissipation. Lost both TS, the mech dies?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jacob Side, on 29 September 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Terrible idea.
'Cause all the BT Lore.

BT lore has been thrown out the window a long, LONG time ago. We have 1.4x Double Heat sinks, weapons and damage figures that don't come close to matching, JJs that can't jump a mech 20-30m let alone the 150m TT lore has them being to jump. Hell Clan mechs are supposed to run cooler that IS mechs but in MWO it takes roughly 22 DHS to sink the same amount of firepower that 18 DHS will cool on IS mechs and lets not forget that IS mechs generally offer more customization options than Clan mechs which is entirely backward from lore.

Anyway, point is, Lore is dead and gone so they need to make balancing decisions on what is best for the game, not on lore. Buffing IS XL engines to be non-lore-like is a much better option than them nerfing Clan engines to be non-lore-like.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 29 September 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[elde]

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 September 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Yeah, the idea sounds cool and all. It is a nice compromise, but then we end up going down the same path as Planetside 2, where we have 2 different armies, that are supposed to be very different, but due to nerfs, QQ and everything else, we end up with 2 armies that are largely identical....eliminating any differentiating features between Clan and IS....

Well, the thing is, there are no factions at the moment to speak off - there are just supreme machines of destruction (clan omnimechs) and the old, horribly underpowered rusty buckets (IS). If it were Clans vs IS, they could compensate it with other ways (tonnage restrictions, 10 vs 12 etc) - and we could have to 'armies' to fight each other.

[Almond Brown]

Engine DHS's are equal for both sides. Space is not considered, only engine size. That said, if a Mech loses 2 but also ALL the weapons on the ST, how will there be a Heat issue that would be "devastating"?

Take a Nova. 12 CerML with 18 DHS, 250XL (10 + 8 added) provides a 17% heat Eff. Now we lose the RT. Now you have 6 CerML and a 28% Heat eff. You have only lost 22% of your DHS's, 50% of your firepower but gained 11% Heat Eff. with your remaining weapons and...you aren't dead, yet.

Sounds like a deal for the Clanners still.

P.S. You can pick one arm to carry a DHS but then it is a crap shoot which arm may be lost first. Both have the ability to carry 50% of your payload.

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 September 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[Xarian]

Aloha, on 29 September 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

How about making IS side torsos like the legs? Lose one ST, lose 50% power/heat dissipation. Lost both TS, the mech dies?

Because this makes them nearly identical to Clan XL engines. This is a bad thing.

Most IS XL engines are fine. Most IS Std engines are also fine. The only exceptions are the really light engines - the game needs engines smaller than 100 rating (for the Urbanmech, obviously), and the small engines need more internal heat sinks (this diverges from TT, but lights in TT were never supposed to be remotely equal in BV to heavier mechs). This would also apply to small Clan engines.

Give Clan XL engines heat and movement penalties if you lose a ST. Give everyone appropriate heat penalties at high heat and remove the "override = automatic CT death" mechanic (mech is more sluggish at high heat, for example). Increase heat dissipation rates across the board, but lower maximum threshold. Combine those three things and suddenly Clans will take a huge hit for losing a ST - slower, and no more alphas.

[Coolant]

please don't nerf the Clan engines or anything else on Clans...their stream ballistics and long beam duration lasers have already balanced things....I've gone back to IS cause they are equally deadly now