54 replies to this topic

[MoonUnitBeta]

Detail the friendly fire.

• Deduct 1 point of XP per point of team damage, after 30 points of team damage is dealt. (yet 31 damage points yields -31 xp points)
  
• Reticle displays a subtle teal/blue(IS), or red/orange(Clan), X over top when a friendly mech is in the line of fire or was hit.
  
• Place the XP Team Damage XP penalty beside or under the reticle, counting up per point of damage (-31, -32, -33...),disappearing after a couple seconds.
  
• Include an audible sound per point of damage
  
• Incorporate a 2500CB and 100XP reward for 0 team damage dealt
  
• Incorporate reward and penalty tooltips
  
• Incorporate the reward in the XP penalty's tooltip to further encourage cooperative play

[Short Story]
Team damage has always been a problem. But it’s a special treat when you haven’t moved from your spot waiting for the enemy to pop around, and a Timberwolf peeks out from behind you and then starts backing up just after unloading his large lasers at an enemy; following his last .6 seconds of his large laser alpha across your back.

Mmmm. Thanks bro. I thought that armor was there to protect me against sneaky light mechs and damage mitigation, but now I’m convinced that armor is only there so people like you don’t end up with a -10,000cb and -150xp penalty for a team kill.

I’ve been pretty forgiving when it comes to receiving team damage, especially when things get harry it’s more difficult to keep people from clipping each other or walking into someone’s line of fire. But this particular one just tipped the scales when I turned around to stare at him, I didn’t even get an apology


[Statement]
1 xp per point of damage is not terrible. In fact, it’s more than reasonable if it effectively discourages lazy behaviour. You likely will not notice a difference if your average team damage is under 100 (If it’s more than that, please google “local optometrist”)
But I know for a fact, simply showing -27xp for Team Damage, will be a gentle reminder that team damage is not good damage, and it does have a consequence.

Based on the amount of “watch your fire” comments I see in chat, I’m hoping that there’s a good amount of people that can agree with this little addition.

The nature of a real time penalty carries heavier value than the actual deduction. -1XP per damage point is hardly a penalty, but it must be shown as a constant reminder friendly fire is discouraged. The 1:1 ratio double acts as a counter for how much team damage you've done during a match. A reward should be given for those yielding to team damage, with the requirement that enemy damage must be dealt. Thus, players must be at risk of dealing team damage are awarded so that AFKer's do not receive unjustified rewards.


[But It's Not Always Me!]
I understand not all team damage is intentional. Sometimes it's not even your fault. I’ve had a few moments where I hammer on that fire key and my AC/20 shell soars through the air and plows into a teammate. -20xp. But that’s ok. Really. I would not mind that. Part of it might be his fault for nearly running through my burning lasers, but part of it is my fault for not being aware of my teammates location and proceeded to fire my AC20. Accidents happen and that’s OK. But unfortunately accidents have to be included into the penalty in order for this to work. It has been discussed that you will only be deducted once you go over the 30 team damage penalty limit.


[Feedback To The Community]
I’d like to thank everyone who swirls or drops their lasers or holds their fire just to avoid hitting team members. I see it happen - people toss their mouse to the side or let go of the fire button - I especially notice it when I’m the one who caused them grief in my light mech. It’s very appreciated when I see a medium laser move out of the way while I’m zipping around in a light mech to keep the enemy from get a beat on me.
It’s this behavior of avoiding friendly fire that I’d just like to see encouraged more often with a gentle reminder for people to watch their fire.



Please read this thread about some team damage averages...



Thank you all for reading.

Edit: Updated post.
Edit: Cleaned up the layout a bit. And reworded some of the changes.
Edit: Added latest reference, that proves these numbers are more than reasonable. most people are doing less then 30 team damage a game.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 01 February 2015 - 04:58 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Even more than the xp being taken away i would like to see if i dmg my team. Sometimes i wonder if it was a close call or not.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Monkey Lover, on 22 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Even more than the xp being taken away i would like to see if i dmg my team. Sometimes i wonder if it was a close call or not.

How do you mean?
You get -1xp per point of damage to a team mate and a reticle blip and on-screen notification that you did damage. So if you have -X xp, you did X amount of damage.

Or do you mean you'd just be fine with a different type of reticle blip (and audible sound?) if you hit a team mate?

[Elizander]

This is a good idea.

Add penalties for dying to overheat while you are at it.

Edited by Elizander, 22 October 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Elizander, on 22 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

This is a good idea.

Add penalties for dying to overheat while you are at it.

I think the penalty would be death itself. Unless there's something I'm missing? Are people doing this to avoid something?

[Elizander]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 October 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

I think the penalty would be death itself. Unless there's something I'm missing? Are people doing this to avoid something?

Yes, deny a kill.

[Monkey Lover]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 October 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

How do you mean?
You get -1xp per point of damage to a team mate and a reticle blip and on-screen notification that you did damage. So if you have -X xp, you did X amount of damage.

Or do you mean you'd just be fine with a different type of reticle blip (and audible sound?) if you hit a team mate?

I think -1xp is a good idea but more than a punishment i would see it as a way to improve. Sound effects for team hits would also be nice as i think it would help a lot of the new people.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 22 October 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Elizander, on 22 October 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes, deny a kill.

Hmm. Then there should be a penalty for going out of bounds too.
But maybe we should make a new thread to discuss that part. It seems like it will be finicky to effectively discourage because you're putting a value on something that's relative to how valuable denying a kill is to the person commiting suicide.
Will it take -100xp for overheating? Maybe that;s not enough because denying a kill is more important. I think the penalty would be so large to discourage that behaviour, so much that folks who unintentionally die from it will feel like they're getting disciplined for something they didn't do.

Monkey Lover, on 22 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think -1xp is a good idea but more than a punishment i would see it as a way to improve. Sound effects for team hits would also be nice as i think it would help a lot of the new people.

I see, good points. Thank you.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 22 October 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[SweetJackal]

Elizander, on 22 October 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes, deny a kill.

Actually there is a simple solution to this. If someone dies from going out of bounds, overheating or fall damage then the most recent enemy to deal damage to them in the last 5 seconds gets credited for the kill. If they haven't taken damage from opposing forces in that last 5 seconds then it's a misadventure death as normal.

I honestly doubt the majority of engine overheat deaths are intentional denies. There are cases where firing would lead to an overheat, shutting down would be death and not firing would lead to your death or a teammates. Damage from Overheating is randomly assigned and in random doses, it may just color your internals a bit or it may just oneshot both legs from full, so you roll the dice and hope for the best.

[MoonUnitBeta]

SuckyJack, on 22 October 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Actually there is a simple solution to this. If someone dies from going out of bounds, overheating or fall damage then the most recent enemy to deal damage to them in the last 5 seconds gets credited for the kill. If they haven't taken damage from opposing forces in that last 5 seconds then it's a misadventure death as normal.

That seems reasonable. But why would there be a time limit on it? Just make it so that no matter how you die someone gets the kill, Maybe the person who did the most damage instead of the last person to hit?.Then there's no point to killing yourself except to speed up the process (if the enemy is far away and you're the last one standing) as somebody is always going to be awarded a kill. New players or accidents don't get penalized negatively that way.

[The Boz]

As an Atlas, I dislike this, because good lord, clueless people are constantly randomly running in front of my guns...

[EvilCow]

Good idea, I would make it "live", the negative counter should go up as long as damage is applied: -1, -2...
The color should not be the usual HUD orange but a bright bold red.

[mindwarp]

I'm all for this. Especially if it was a live counter. Friendly fire is a battlefield hazard and you'll never get rid of it, but a reminder to be aware of where your shots are going is always going to be a good thing.

[The Wakelord]

Approved!

[Brody319]

I agree team kills are bad and should be punished, but When I twin gauss at a whale, and some cheeky little light jumps in front of the shot and gets cored I fail to see how that is my fault. With the new rewards system people jumping in for the kill steal has gotten worse, so hopefully the hotfix, does in fact fix the problem

[Troutmonkey]

I am however all for different coloured reticles, but am against the XP penalty. Half the time it's the fault of the person who's been shot, and as someone who has on occasion foolishly run into a team mates line of fire I don't think they should be penalized for that.

There could be a threshold for team damage before penalties get applied, meaning griefers who damage but not kill their team could still be penalized appropriately.

[El Bandito]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

• Deduct 1 point of XP per point of team damage.
  
• Place the -1xp for crossfire beside or under the reticle. It does a subtle little “bounce” as damage is applied. Disappears after a couple seconds.
  
• Reticle displays a subtle teal/blue(IS) or red/orange(Clan) X over top it when a friendly mech is in the line of fire or hit,
  
• The nature of a realtime penalty carries a heavier message than the actual deduction. -1 xp per damage point is hardly a penalty, but it must be shown, and double acts as a counter for how much team damage you've done.

Team damage has always been a problem. But it’s a special treat when you haven’t moved from your spot waiting for the enemy to pop around, and a Timberwolf peeks out from behind you and then starts backing up just after unloading his large lasers at an enemy; following his last .6 seconds of his large laser alpha across your back.

Well, you better not hug the enemy while my LRM60s rain down on him then. I will agree if only LRMs are exception to the rule.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 October 2014 - 09:06 AM.

[aniviron]

SuckyJack, on 22 October 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I honestly doubt the majority of engine overheat deaths are intentional denies. There are cases where firing would lead to an overheat, shutting down would be death and not firing would lead to your death or a teammates. Damage from Overheating is randomly assigned and in random doses, it may just color your internals a bit or it may just oneshot both legs from full, so you roll the dice and hope for the best.

I can tell you that in a Nova there's almost no reason not to go out from overheating. I tend to die from overheat suicide, I'd guess about a quarter of my deaths (would be more if override weren't so wonky) are from it. I mean, when you know you're dead anyway, might as well go out with a bang and slag someone along with you! [redacted]

Edited by Egomane, 24 October 2014 - 08:44 AM.
language

[lsp]

I haven't had such a big issue with friendly fire where I see it needing to have these changes. Don't stand infront of people, even in pugs it's not really an issue for me. Yeah, take a little flak here and there, but so what. I do it too, stuff happens.

[Sirius Drake]

No. Thank you but: no.