54 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

As much as I'd LOVE to see people get penalized for being boneheads, this idea simply won't work.

WON'T WORK.

Here's your problem: New players have NOTHING available to teach them how to play except the Solo Queue. In fact, let's just stop calling it the "Solo Queue" and call it what it is.....the training grounds.

New players can't move and shoot at the same time, they can't unzoom without looking at their keyboards, they have trouble telling the difference between friends and enemies and......they're used to balance the Elo average on YOUR team. You have to carry them, every single match.

Penalizing them isn't going to make them learn any faster or better. In fact, if they can't progress at all due to their incompetence, they'll ragequit and uninstall. And, although I'd love to see 80% of the drooling morons uninstall....I'm thinking that's bad for PGI's business model.

So, since they can't come up with any meaningful "new player experience," we're stuck with having to teach them in the Training Queue.

[Mechteric]

We definitely need some sort of indicator, and at least a minor CBill deduction. More important than the deduction is the visibility of the indicator in real time, not just end-of-match.

[Vaderman]

Willard Phule, on 23 October 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

As much as I'd LOVE to see people get penalized for being boneheads, this idea simply won't work.

WON'T WORK.

Here's your problem: New players have NOTHING available to teach them how to play except the Solo Queue. In fact, let's just stop calling it the "Solo Queue" and call it what it is.....the training grounds.

New players can't move and shoot at the same time, they can't unzoom without looking at their keyboards, they have trouble telling the difference between friends and enemies and......they're used to balance the Elo average on YOUR team. You have to carry them, every single match.

Penalizing them isn't going to make them learn any faster or better. In fact, if they can't progress at all due to their incompetence, they'll ragequit and uninstall. And, although I'd love to see 80% of the drooling morons uninstall....I'm thinking that's bad for PGI's business model.

So, since they can't come up with any meaningful "new player experience," we're stuck with having to teach them in the Training Queue.

I understand what you're saying, but they're also learning some bad habits if allowed to play that way.

Getting your back ripped open by friendly fire while simultaneously being unable to back up due to someone behind you is never fun.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Sirius Drake, on 23 October 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

No. Thank you but: no.

Sorry, this forum is the one called ‘General Discussion’ not ‘General Disagreeing’. I don't mind that you disagree, but this isn't a poll. Can you maybe expand on why you don’t like it as that’d be more along the lines of what’s expected, otherwise I will simply pretend like you haven’t said anything at all via the ignore button.

Thanks.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Willard Phule, on 23 October 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

As much as I'd LOVE to see people get penalized for being boneheads, this idea simply won't work.

WON'T WORK.

Here's your problem: New players have NOTHING available to teach them how to play except the Solo Queue. In fact, let's just stop calling it the "Solo Queue" and call it what it is.....the training grounds.

New players can't move and shoot at the same time, they can't unzoom without looking at their keyboards, they have trouble telling the difference between friends and enemies and......they're used to balance the Elo average on YOUR team. You have to carry them, every single match.

Penalizing them isn't going to make them learn any faster or better. In fact, if they can't progress at all due to their incompetence, they'll ragequit and uninstall. And, although I'd love to see 80% of the drooling morons uninstall....I'm thinking that's bad for PGI's business model.

So, since they can't come up with any meaningful "new player experience," we're stuck with having to teach them in the Training Queue.

I understand your concern that it could be frustrating for new players. If you’re comparing solo queue to training grounds, then what a better place to discourage friendly fire? Right?

I’m not expecting anyone to do more than 75-100 team damage. And if they are, they seriously need to know about it. Team damage is a bad habit. Like I said, the penalty is going to be negligible, but as long as it’s there, it will likely surprise some people who are careless. So with that in mind, instead of being penalized for all damage, I’m sure we could compromise and say if you do less than 24 team damage you won’t be penalized.

What I would like to see from PGI to help new players, is a tooltip that pops up when you hover over penalties to explain why you got it, and a tooltip for rewards to explain how you can earn them/increase them. With that in place, it would be possible to explain through the penalty tooltip that no team damage awards you with 5,000CB.

This effectively discourages bad behaviour, and gives a goal for players to work towards.

[MoonUnitBeta]

El Bandito, on 23 October 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Then yo



Well, you better not hug the enemy while my LRM60s rain down on him then. I will agree if only LRMs are exception to the rule.

Huh? There weren't any LRMs flyng. And I was standed around a corner where the enemy could not see me, motionless.

I can understand if LRM's were excluded, as you can't stop others from running through your stuff.

[MoonUnitBeta]

The Boz, on 22 October 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

As an Atlas, I dislike this, because good lord, clueless people are constantly randomly running in front of my guns...

Brody319, on 23 October 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

I agree team kills are bad and should be punished, but When I twin gauss at a whale, and some cheeky little light jumps in front of the shot and gets cored I fail to see how that is my fault. With the new rewards system people jumping in for the kill steal has gotten worse, so hopefully the hotfix, does in fact fix the problem

I understand these types of points. But we're talking about an accident that will happen maybe once or twice throughout the match. If it happens more often, you should be more careful. So earlier I proposed a threshold of around 25 damage(could be 30 for the dual gaussers to allow a freebie accident shot), but anything after that you start getting penalized for your past damage. I would like to make a point that this may or may not indirectly affect how you fire your weapon as well. If you stagger your shots, you have a chance to only do 15 damage instead of a full 30 to a team member. But remember that if all you want to do is Alpha, then you should make extra careful that you have a clear shot. Gauss are fast, so a light mech sneaking in front of your shot has to be pretty close for that to happen. If it’s extreme distances with long flight times, then I warn you, you’re not doing full damage.
I think that is a working compromise so that one time accidents (doesn’t matter who’s fault it is) is ignored, but if the person is continuous offender for team damage, then all past damage gets penalized and gets worse as he goes on.
The main focus is to discourage repeat offenders for excessive team damage.

So currently after our discussions we’ve made the current changes:

• Max damage threshold until you’re penalized: 30 damage
  
• Reward ‘0 Team Damage Dealt’ with 2,500cb and a +100xp bonus (this might get tricky as we enter the realm of AFKer’s vs spotters. So perhaps to acquire this reward, you must deal some form of damage to enemies.)
  
• Introduce tooltips to explain how both the rewards and the penalties are earned (much like what was found in this latest patch notes, but expanded on slightly.)
  
• Include in the Team XP damage penalty tooltip that if no team damage is dealt, you are rewarded with the above bonus of 2,500cb and 100xp.

Requires to be looked into further:

• LRM’s are either not included in team damage penalty or have a drastically reduced penalty. (Though this will need to be looked into. I don’t suspect that an LRM boat would exceed 30 team damage.)

If we can agree on this, I'll include these changes to the proposal in the OP and take this to the feature suggestions forum.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 24 October 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Egomane]

MoonUnitBeta we have a function called MultiQuote (right next to the quote button), with it you can answer multiple posts as one. All you need to do is mark any post you want to answer with a click on this button. Please refrain from multi-posting in the future and use the tools available to you.

Don't you agree, that it looks kinda silly, if you post four or five times in a row?
Thank you!

Edited by Egomane, 24 October 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[PappySmurf]

MoonUnitBeta we have a function called MultiQuote (right next to the quote button), with it you can answer multiple posts as one. All you need to do is mark any post you want to answer with a click on this button. Please refrain from multi-posting in the future and use the tools available to you.

Don't you agree, that it looks kinda silly, if you post four or five times in a row?
Thank you!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is 1/2 the forum functions don't work for a lot of folks because PGI wont fix even there forums so get to work and fix your forums before you complain about all the posts or topics that are incorrect.

Edited by PappySmurf, 24 October 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Egomane, on 24 October 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

MoonUnitBeta we have a function called MultiQuote (right next to the quote button), with it you can answer multiple posts as one. All you need to do is mark any post you want to answer with a click on this button. Please refrain from multi-posting in the future and use the tools available to you.

Don't you agree, that it looks kinda silly, if you post four or five times in a row?
Thank you!

Thanks. I knew about the multi quote function, but I’m at work right now and getting all my responses in one go is hard to do. So I just respond one at time. I’m not vain enough to care about how it –looks- as long as it serves its purpose that’s ok.

Don’t tell my boss I’m on here.

[Kreisel]

I like the idea of a reward for zero team damage dealt, but it might be more realistic to make it a reward of a set amount that is deducted from for each point of damage dealt to a friendly. It takes some serious effort sometimes not to do ANY damage friendly, It's annoying how often teammates cut right through my line of fire. In some sense it's not really fair to punish a player when a ally runs right infront of their already fired AC20, SRM volley or through an active laser beam, so there should be some forgiveness for FF. I can't count the number of times a friendly have charged directly into my ongoing laser blast or Dakka from offscreen, like runs right through it while looking at it... Or is so eager to shoot a foe, they will run around me from behind and then cut right in front of me, completely denying me a line of fire at the guy I was in the act of shooting at.

I do think FF should be penalized after a point though... or at least a visible stat. Maybe not to everyone, but you should really being seeing how much damage you do to friendly targets. A Cbill deduction makes more sense than XP to me, sort of like playing for the friendly mechs repairs. Also it might make more sense to have the deduction be on a 'per incident' rather than a per damage basis. Maybe each time you deals more than a set amount of damage to a friendly in a set timeframe you get the penalty. Say 1 Damage over the course of one second. This saves you from taking the penalty in those instances where a friendly wanders into your active laser beam and you quickly jerk it away to save them from taking more damage from it.) Maybe 1 is too low maybe something like 2.7 in 1 second would be better, juuuuuust barely enough so a single stray SRM going wide wouldn't penalize you, or multiple larger lasers could get one or 2 'ticks' off before you managed to aim it away from the idiot who strayed into it.

Edited by Kreisel, 26 October 2014 - 12:00 AM.

[Krivvan]

Elizander, on 22 October 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes, deny a kill.

It's a fine line between denying a kill and trying to get off a kill before dying. Easier way is to just give an overheat kill to the one who last did damage or the one who did most damage or something like that.

[The Flying Gecko]

I'd rather die from overheating then let someone kill me.

Especially when I'm the last mech alive and there's still 6 enemies (near by) and I'm missing a leg.

Heck, you should get a consolation prize of BONUS C-BILLS if the shot that makes you overheat (and thus kills you) deals damage (or better yet destroys) an enemy mech. The BLAZE OF GLORY bonus!

[Kiiyor]

Elizander, on 22 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

This is a good idea.

Add penalties for dying to overheat while you are at it.

Or dying while powered down and being the last of your team.

How to penalize though? Let's say... the random sale of one of your mechs.

[Pat Kell]

blaze of glory achievement, I like it:)

[Mudhutwarrior]

Just had a match where the other team said we had a TK on our team. Of course idiots jumped on that which started a melee at spawn ending with three dead and two damaged. Come to find out it was a bad synch and they were having fun with us. At least they were open about being scumbags.

Most fight was on the spawn, rest dead within 60 seconds.. Yep real sporting fellows there.

Karma is coming.

[Satan n stuff]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

OP

Looks good so far, but how about collision damage? You can't always avoid people running into you and sometimes friendlies happen to be in your way but stopping or going around isn't an option, like when you're backing away from the enemy and there's someone right behind you, if you stop you die but if you don't you deal team damage.

As long as collision damage isn't penalized I'm okay with it.

[Tarogato]

@OP: I support this cause.

I suggest an exponential curve: you deal a little damage (woups, he walked in front of me and I averted my lasers!) and you get a very minimal penalty. But you deal a little damage consistently (woups, I don't pay attention to what's in front of my whale!) and you start racking up some noticeable penalties.

The Flying Gecko, on 26 October 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

Heck, you should get a consolation prize of BONUS C-BILLS if the shot that makes you overheat (and thus kills you) deals damage (or better yet destroys) an enemy mech. The BLAZE OF GLORY bonus!

No. That would encourage some people to just suicide if they're near death in attempts at the prize. However, I TOTALLY support this as a one-time achievement get. Awesome name. =]

Edited by Tarogato, 26 October 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Kiiyor, on 26 October 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Or dying while powered down and being the last of your team.

How to penalize though? Let's say... the random sale of one of your mechs.

And that whole "powering down when you're the last guy" thing should be reportable.

You've got multiple mission parameters on every map. Destroy the enemy or capture the base....or resource points...or whatever. By hiding and powering down, you're attempting neither. Avoiding the mission parameters should be on the list of reportable stuff.

[Satan n stuff]

Willard Phule, on 26 October 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

And that whole "powering down when you're the last guy" thing should be reportable.

You've got multiple mission parameters on every map. Destroy the enemy or capture the base....or resource points...or whatever. By hiding and powering down, you're attempting neither. Avoiding the mission parameters should be on the list of reportable stuff.

Sometimes it actually does help win the match, so indiscriminately reporting people because they're doing something you don't like would not be a good solution. Hell I've seen quite a few resource wins happen because the last guy powered down, and there is such a thing as a power down ambush, which could under the right circumstances win the match.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 26 October 2014 - 03:56 AM.