157 replies to this topic

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

win



loss



Both with 1 kill and in a hero mech no less. Not much damage I know. But this is a serious nerf. Why bother spending more money on this game if I get no rewards even with a money mech.

[mad kat]

Only two games tonight a steam roll washout. And a great little game despite dying, hardly firing a weapon in anger, doing barely any damage and no kills but still earning shy of 125k in a raven 3l from these rewards er rewarding scouting and use of ecm, tag and narc.

The reward increases are now much more in line with how they should be. Now scout mechs can skimp on weapons and earn more money by being a spotter. I even discovered two enemy mechs that were reluctant to engage me presumably the tag and narc would bring the rain.

Screen shots of the same match but showing more of the earnings list.

Edited by mad kat, 23 October 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 23 October 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

win



loss



Both with 1 kill and in a hero mech no less. Not much damage I know. But this is a serious nerf. Why bother spending more money on this game if I get no rewards even with a money mech.

Actually, that looks about right to me. You didn't really contribute in either match, so why expect loads of C-bills? The new system emphasizes team contribution over individual Rambo attempts.

[ExoForce]

After the fix, rewards look back to normal, at least for me, only different names for rewards.
I even see slight increase in XPs.

Timber-S is still transformed to Nova with fixed JJ, please transform it back to Timby. He is crying to the moon...

Lightfoot, on 23 October 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

"The Sleeper must awaken."



.

Yea, then You got abomination like previous patch...

[ShadowDraconis]

Woot! More evidence of PGI moving in the right direction. Thank you PGI. I will now be buying a collection or two in the near future.

[A sebaceous cyst]

Ok, I ran another 10 games after the hotfix to Rewards 2.0 and recorded somewhat more accurate data than yesterday (sorry I know you all would prefer the actual screen captures, tried but it didn't work). The games today overall were much better than yesterday (6 wins/4 loss vs 4wins/6loss yesterday) and my performance overall was much better in most games (yeah I'm still newish, yeah I still suck). so for a quick recap here are yesterdays 2.0 pre-hotfix results:

Prior to today (yesterdays patch) I was averaging 679 exps per match along with about 76000 cbills per match without any bonuses from premium time or heroes/champions. After being shocked earlier at the severe reduction in exps and cbills from the new rewards system I decided to track 10 games in the new centurion (not stock, I made a few mods) to see just how much the difference is. Most matches weren't great, but I had at least a couple of spots, 1-6 assists and 100+ damage In all games but one (the first win of the day where I had 3 spots, 1 kill, 5 assists but only 40 damage). Here are the results:
game 1: loss 103 exps 26000ish cbills
game 2: loss 114 exps 32000ish cbills
game 3: loss 155 exps 29000ish cbills
game 4: win 746 exps 70000ish cbills (1st win of the day, exps were double)
game 5: win 293 exps 63000ish cbills
game 6: win 251 exps 58000ish cbills
game 7: loss 200 exps 64000ish cbills
game 8: loss 42exps 19000ish cbills
game 9: loss 66exps 23000ish cbills
game 10: win 281exps 49000ish bills
Now I know these games weren't stellar but I was trying as much as I would on any given night. I was slightly hampered by using a new mech that has no skills (but this is pretty much what a brand new player who just completed the 25 cadet matches and just bought their first mech would experience...and yeah again I realize many many new players could do much better than me). Also after the first 2 games I stopped loading coolshots and artillary strikes because I noticed I would loose money if I had to replenish them. Prior to today in 10 games (just over an hour of play by the way) I was averaging 6800 exps and 760,000 cbills. with the "new improved" rewards system I averaged 2250 exps and 430,000 cbills with a 30% boost (around 303,000 if I had a standard mech). I know there are many of you out there who are a lot better players than I am and due to your skill (and perhaps also the skill of your teammates, specially if you drop in large groups, I dont have that luxury, I have 2 friends who play this game and were are rarely on at the same time and since there is no in-game social system I mostly play solo) are able to effectively capitalize on the "new improved" rewards system and are most likely earning more experience and cbills with this system...but the point is newer players like me aren't...and more importantly this is NOT a slight difference in rewards/earning. For newer players like me its more than a 50% reduction in cbills per hour and more than a 60% reduction in exps per hour. The grind to earn enough cbills to buy a new mech was already pretty severe but now mastery of a chassis seems almost unattainable. Frushtration will drive newer players from the game, it won't encourage them to open their wallets (right now I pretty much regret having bought MC and have completely changed my mind about getting any level of the resistance pack I was so excited about yesterday).

Now here are today's post hotfix results:

game 1: Win 99,729 cbills 758 exps (1st win of day) 5 assists
game 2: Loss 73,874 cbills 251 exps 1kill 3 assists 1 comp destrct 330 damage done
game 3: Loss 38,293 cbills 85 exps 1 assist 1 spot 67 damage (only conquest rnd, got stomped)
game 4: Win 107,167 cbills 409 exps 7 assists 4spot 203 damage done
game 5: Win 125,686 cbills 600 exps 7 asst 1spt 2comp 136 damage done
game 6: Loss 68,894 cbills 168 exps 5 asst 2 comp 136 damage done
game 7: Win 81,016 cbills 345 exps 1kill 4 asst 2 comp 123 damage done
game 8: Loss 32,982 cbills 42 exps 1 asst 59 damage done
game 9: Win 107,167 cbills 431 exps 6 asst 2 spot 185 damage done
game 10:Win 129,297 cbills 918 exps 1kill 5 asst 5 spot 1comp 164 damage done

So todays totals, with the 30% bonus (for the new Cent-AH, still havent bought any skills for it to keep things on part with yesterday) I totaled 864,105 cbills and 4001 exps for 10 games...take away the 30% bonus and its 604,874 cbills and 4001 exps VS my pre-rewards 2.0 average of 760,000 cbills and 6800 exps I would say Cbills are about right, or at lease at a tollerable level but exps are still way too low! which was Half of the issue yesterday. I know we all have bad rounds once in a while but 42 exps? Really? I do like the direction rewards 2.0 is headed in but previously you couldn't earn less than 100 exps (which felt punnishing enough for a bad round if that was all you got). Considering it takes over 57000 exps to master the skills for a mech x3 mechs how many thousands of matches (and yes it is thousands) would you have to play just to master 1 chassis if all you got was 42 exps per match because you are a new player (I know highly unlikely that there could be someone out there who sucks worse than me, but it is possible to do that bad with rewards 2.0)??? As it is from my 20 games played with the new Cent AH I have totalled a whopping 6352 exps VS my average for 20 games pre-rewards 2.0 of 13600 meaning instead of almost completing teir one skills I am less than half done, so my time to master a mech would seem to have more than doubled with rewards 2.0 and my income has gone down slightly as well, sorry but that doesn't inspire me to play more or get better!!!
Russ, Niko and the rest I know rewards 2.0 is a work in progress and really we appreciate what all of you are doing and how quickly you reacted to the Cbill imballance, BUT PLEASE REVIEW EXPS AS WELL!

Edited by A sebaceous cyst, 23 October 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Nightmare1, on 23 October 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Actually, that looks about right to me. You didn't really contribute in either match, so why expect loads of C-bills? The new system emphasizes team contribution over individual Rambo attempts.

And to an extent I will agree. But let me ask you this. How many new players are going to be able to get even that. And While I am PO'd that even a hero mech didn't make up the difference on bad matches. Those would be great matches for new players. So how long do you think they will stay for this.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 23 October 2014 - 04:08 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 23 October 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

And to an extent I will agree. But let me ask you this. How many new players are going to be able to get even that. And While I am PO'd that even a hero mech didn't make up the difference on bad matches. Those would be great matches for new players. So how long do you think they will stay for this.

That depends on how much they want to play this sort of game. I don't know of any other ones aside from Hawken that are like this.

Overall, the newb experience is pretty bad from what I hear. PGI is taking steps to correct that. One of their most recent and interesting examples is the discussion to form a mentoring/training program for newbs.

Frankly, I think the rewards system is excellent as it currently stands. New players may be discouraged by the low rewards they will probably earn but, hopefully, they will be interested enough to learn how the rewards system works. If they do that, then they can adjust their playstyles accordingly to earn significantly more C-bills. They can also join a Unit and get speed-trained and then have the advantages of superior players helping them learn and fight.

Overall, I think that the current system is the best we've had yet. We just need better orientations and learning materials for newbs.

[YUyahoo]

Nightmare1, on 23 October 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

That depends on how much they want to play this sort of game. I don't know of any other ones aside from Hawken that are like this.

Overall, the newb experience is pretty bad from what I hear. PGI is taking steps to correct that. One of their most recent and interesting examples is the discussion to form a mentoring/training program for newbs.

Frankly, I think the rewards system is excellent as it currently stands. New players may be discouraged by the low rewards they will probably earn but, hopefully, they will be interested enough to learn how the rewards system works. If they do that, then they can adjust their playstyles accordingly to earn significantly more C-bills. They can also join a Unit and get speed-trained and then have the advantages of superior players helping them learn and fight.

Overall, I think that the current system is the best we've had yet. We just need better orientations and learning materials for newbs.

Rewards 2.0 is a step in the right direction, totally agree with that...but as it is right now, even after the C-Bill hotfix, it is still only "excellent" for average and above players, not for below average or new players. Look at the guy in the post 2 above yours, he's new and he had a bunch of rounds where he didn't even earn 100 exps. That's your new player base! Think of how frustrating it would be, just starting out playing 5 games and not even having 750 exps to unlock the cheapest skill!!! If that would have been my first experience I certainly wouldn't have stuck around (and I have spent well over $100 on this game, revenue that PGI wouldn't have). New people get excited when they feel a sense of accomplishment (and an excited new player is far more likely to open their wallets) and are easily frustrated when the feel they aren't getting anywhere specially with a FTP game they will quit far faster than someone who bought a AAA game because they have nothing invested (and thats a loss of potential revenue). Minimum C-bill earnings after todays hotfix seem fairly decent compared to yesterday (at least most of the time you won't loose $ if you had a bad round and used an artillery/air strike or cool shot) but the minimum exp threshold and exp in general per match is still far too low!

[Nightwielder]

honestly the rewards are still too low. You have to go crazy narcing and tagging and then you can make 400k creds if you play normal be happy if you break 140k. Assaults would love to get some rewards too I think.

[Nightmare1]

YUyahoo, on 23 October 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Rewards 2.0 is a step in the right direction, totally agree with that...but as it is right now, even after the C-Bill hotfix, it is still only "excellent" for average and above players, not for below average or new players. Look at the guy in the post 2 above yours, he's new and he had a bunch of rounds where he didn't even earn 100 exps. That's your new player base! Think of how frustrating it would be, just starting out playing 5 games and not even having 750 exps to unlock the cheapest skill!!! If that would have been my first experience I certainly wouldn't have stuck around (and I have spent well over $100 on this game, revenue that PGI wouldn't have). New people get excited when they feel a sense of accomplishment (and an excited new player is far more likely to open their wallets) and are easily frustrated when the feel they aren't getting anywhere specially with a FTP game they will quit far faster than someone who bought a AAA game because they have nothing invested (and thats a loss of potential revenue). Minimum C-bill earnings after todays hotfix seem fairly decent compared to yesterday (at least most of the time you won't loose $ if you had a bad round and used an artillery/air strike or cool shot) but the minimum exp threshold and exp in general per match is still far too low!

I'm not saying that it's perfect with regard to new players. I just think that it's great for seasoned pilots.

All-in-all, I don't want to see it changed. However, what would help new pilots (aside from the learning tools I previously mentioned) would be an extension of the Cadet Rewards. Since Awards 2.0 is so good for experienced pilots, I would hate to see it tweaked any more. If PGI could simply increase the duration of the Cadet bonuses, then that may go a long way towards helping keep the new player base engaged and interested without compromising all the awesome new C-bills we're earning.

[King of the Woad]

Shadow Magnet, on 23 October 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

No big difference for me after the hotfix, still around 20-30k for a loss and around 100k for a win.

No more rewards for me. Just more Assaults and incredibly lopsided games.

As in "I can't stand to play" lopsided. Incoming "the only consistent thing..." stupidity.

[Kali Rinpoche]

In the hot-patch notes, it said Kill assist were going from 20 to 40xp. It appears to not be fixed.
So far tonight in 3 matches.

9 assits 15 xp
9 assst 56 xp
5 assist 11 xp

[YUyahoo]

Nightmare1, on 23 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I'm not saying that it's perfect with regard to new players. I just think that it's great for seasoned pilots.

All-in-all, I don't want to see it changed. However, what would help new pilots (aside from the learning tools I previously mentioned) would be an extension of the Cadet Rewards. Since Awards 2.0 is so good for experienced pilots, I would hate to see it tweaked any more. If PGI could simply increase the duration of the Cadet bonuses, then that may go a long way towards helping keep the new player base engaged and interested without compromising all the awesome new C-bills we're earning.

The trouble is not everyone who plays MWO is a veteran player. I'm certainly not, I'm probably average at best (1-3 kills per game, 250-500 damage typically, some rounds better but we all get in slaughters now and then) and from my own experiences before rewards 2.0 I was averaging about 900 exp per game. I've played a few dozen games since yesterday's patch...some yesterday and a few today after the hotfix...and even my exp totals are way down. The best way I can track things is with the rewards mechs (since my stats with them are all after rewards 2.0 was implemented)...I have played a total of 13 games with them and made just over 3600 exps. That's an average of 276 exp per game vs my overall average of 900 or less than 33% of what I was making before rewards 2.0. Sure I've had better games since the patch with my older mechs, but even in great rounds where I have a few kills, did over 500 damage it is rare that I break 1000 exps where those types of games before rewards 2.0 would have been 1500+ exps easily. I'm not saying the whole exp system in rewards 2.0 should be fixed top to bottom, not at all but I am saying that the low end is far too low (for veteran players, average players and new players). Extending the cadet bonus I don't think is going to fix that for new players...just recently a friend of mine went through the cadet rounds and after 15 he was already starting to get frustrated at how long "training" was, extending the cadet bonus would just exasperate that frustration. Seriously, how harmful would it be if the minimum exps, win or loose, stayed at 100 as it was prior to rewards 2.0?

[Aelryc Maalen]

First off I'd like to congradulate PGI on having listened to the player's concerns and even more importantly allowing a number of us the opportunity to volunteer our statistics for them to do some analysis before making changes.

Like many have already said the hotfix has returned cbill earning to an understandable level while encouraging lights and mediums to play more towards role warfare. Playing my raven i feel properly rewarded for filling the scouting role.

A few other posts have mentioned rewards for heavies and assaults. I think the idea has merit. While its true that due to their size most assaults can dish out high damage the way the kill rewards are tied to the killshot should be reconsidered.

I don't view a teammate striking at the exposed components of a mech I've stripped of armour and severely damaged as kill stealing except in situations where they're blatantly cherry picking without otherwise doing anything of use. Instead in a fight the quicker your enemy dies the better, why absorb more potential return fire? The angst seems not that theyre kill stealing but by finishing the enemy off depriving the other pilot of the greater reward they could have earned without their intervention. Another side effect to this is I've noticed more pilots continuing to fire even when a friendly strays in front of their sights. Ive noticed more TKs recently though you have access to the data and perhaps as I've only played in a small number of the overall total I may have a skewed perception?

The TK issue I think is being exacerbated by the reduced rewards for losses. Namely players fear being the first few mechs to be killed in a match as they are then going to receive a very low reward. This leads to timid huddles of mechs hiding behind their higher tonnage teammates and not being careful of their weapon arcs when trying to engage targets of opportunity while standing behind and even potentially preventing their hapless meatshield the opportunity to move out of the way focused enemy fire. (I've noted this behaviour more in solo queue than group I drop in both) I'm not sure if others have noticed this? As for fixing this behaviour perhaps scaling penalties based on damage to a team mate nothing massively punitive as mistakes happen and sometimes the more maneuverable mechs are bound to cross through your weapons fire (perhaps a threshold that needs to be reached before the penalty)?

I apologize for the wall of text but I wanted to give a fully reasoned out response. I respect others may have differing opinions and i encourage and look forward to reading them. Perhaps they can change my perspective.

Edited by Aelryc Maalen, 23 October 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Gattsus]

Please bump Assist to 4500!

[JackkyChan]

I still get bad C-bill and Xp per battle win 70-80k loss 28-40k with a few kills and assists before new reward system 80k-120k win or lose battle.Like I say before MWO is not worth playing with bad grind now if you want to play for free.My friend tried the game out on my account he start to laugh he said you are crazy to play this terrible game.

So with no friends to play this game with MWO really sucks very bad game it is billed as a team game but it is just another lame MMO that tries to get money for low content and no social game play.

[Darth Futuza]

JackkyChan, on 23 October 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

So with no friends to play this game with MWO really sucks very bad game it is billed as a team game but it is just another lame MMO that tries to get money for low content and no social game play.

If you're looking for a social game I don't think a game where there are only 24 players in a match is really the best of choices. Also trying to chat it up while shooing each other isn't really what most of us are here for...however...social aspect is important and the game becomes a lot more interesting and fun if you join a unit and spend time on teamspeak when your playing. As far as I'm concerned the only really big problem with MWO right now is that we still don't have built in voip. Oh and letting us chat while searching for matches...I hate that...

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 23 October 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

And to an extent I will agree. But let me ask you this. How many new players are going to be able to get even that. And While I am PO'd that even a hero mech didn't make up the difference on bad matches. Those would be great matches for new players. So how long do you think they will stay for this.

Well I wouldn't want to encourage newbies to try to play rambo style. It doesn't help their team, if they get money by doing the right thing, they'll learn to be a better play more quickly. However...there should probably be some more tips or something indicating how to be effective. A better tutorial teaching 'role warefare' would be nice, but is unlikely to happen.

[Phoenix Wolf]

After the patch I still feel, that average C-Bill and XP per match is significantly lower than it was before Reward v2. Earning this few XP will make the walk through the mech tree painful, and the 30-50% drop in C-Bill is even harder - and feeling bankrupt won't encourage me to buy new mechs - or even play the game. Some of the reward, that are intended to promote team play (and the intent is good), mostly does not depend on my behavoir - and we do not have time to educate people during a battle (and mostly they won't listen). The system should not punish players for that they are not responsible - promoting the correct behavoir is the correct way to educate people, not punishing the bad.
I do not think that the new reward system is bad altogeher. But it still needs a lot of adjustment in terms of C-Bill and XP earning, because now we feel that this is a serious cut.

And the nerf with the fixed JJ's are simply a foolish try to downgrade the profile of the Timber Wolf, that I cannot understand. LRM people will use their Warhawk or a Stormcrow D instead of the TW, and get the same (or better) hit profile as the timby S. (BTW: Clan LRM's are already nerfed with that minimum range, that they haven't in Battletech. Clan LRM's are armed at their launch immediately and do damage in 30m as they do in 1000m. Correct this please ) As a workaround you could make the "D" pod available for the Timber Wolf and that will make everybody happy. (graphically the same as the S)

[Winters Rigor]

There is a stupid situation with tag rewards. Mech with tag and same results gets ~30k c-buills (hero ~40k) more. I don't want always play lrms or set tag without lrms...