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Why Is There Elo Separation For Leaderboard Tournaments?

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#61 Lily from animove

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 05:06 AM

View PostSatan n stuff, on 26 October 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Well I know for a fact that certain high elo players I won't name do sync drop, but it doesn't really work due to them often being on opposing teams, unless they arrange for one side to lose. I personally haven't seen that happen though I wouldn't be surprised if some of them do it.

Edit:



butgettign opposed would be perfect to abuse the system, becaue oyuc an controlled let someone specific farm kills and damage.

but not sure if someone really does thta, its cheap and really pityfull

#62 Galenit

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 05:15 AM

Another point noone mentioned:

We have new rewards for roles (sure they need more balancing),
but the tournament still only counts on damage, kills and assists.

Why dont they use the matchscores for the tournament?


View PostLily from animove, on 26 October 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

but not sure if someone really does thta, its cheap and really pityfull

Just use the search for syncdropping in the forum about the past tournaments and a lot of people trying to defend it ...

Edited by Galenit, 26 October 2014 - 05:18 AM.


#63 Mcgral18

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 08:31 AM

View PostGalenit, on 26 October 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

Another point noone mentioned:

We have new rewards for roles (sure they need more balancing),
but the tournament still only counts on damage, kills and assists.

Why dont they use the matchscores for the tournament?


It's changing for the next one.

https://twitter.com/...153509297995777

#64 DarthPeanut

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 08:53 AM

Maybe I am misreading some of the replies but elo is being talked about like it is a static value. If you are dominating in your elo bracket for a period of time... your elo and bracket will have moved up. Short of manipulating it by repeat suicide or whatever else people do now.

It would only be a limited window of time a person could be mopping up in a lower elo before they 'should' be adjusted up by the system. Granted I am not sure how quickly and how much the system realistically adjusts elo.

No?

Edited by DarthPeanut, 26 October 2014 - 08:55 AM.


#65 Aresye

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:15 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 26 October 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Agreed, but who's to say those top tier players aren't taking advantage of the same thing. There is one large assumption that you are making, that not only are top tier players are always getting placed against other top tier players but that these are also the matches that they are getting counted towards the tournament. Without PGI's official stats or the ability to compile our own through screenshots and such (which Im sure many have) you can't say one way or the other. Not to mention, the bigger the divide in ELO the better players will be able to abuse it.


During peak play times, top tier players will get matched with other top tier players nearly every time. It is downright near impossible to get any score high enough to get on the leaderboard. I think I've seen a grand total of 4-5 individual games over the past 3 leaderboard tournies, where I've seen somebody in a high Elo match get a score high enough to count. It isn't impossible, but it's extremely unlikely to happen, and it certainly isn't going to happen to the same player 10 times in a weekend.

Once again, it isn't an issue of farming, but rather an issue of consistency. The high Elo players are playing in an environment where players rarely make mistakes, and consistently perform at a very high level, whereas in the average to low Elo brackets, while players may technically be amongst similarly ranked players, not all of them will consistently perform at a high level.

The middle/average Elo bracket, as somebody mentioned before, has the widest variation and least consistency in performance, so a player in the average Elo bracket actually has a higher chance of getting a high scoring game, and it will happen more often.

Let's use football as an example:

The high Elo matches are essentially 2 professional NFL teams going up against each other, and while sometimes the planets align and one team drastically outperforms the other (see: this year's superbowl), most of the time scores are very close between the two teams, in addition to the overall scores being relatively low due to good defense on both teams.

The average Elo matches are like a pickup football game in the neighborhood. Nobody is professional, but some people may have more experience than others, which leads to very inconsistent games, and without knowing who has more/less experience, the teams have a higher chance of being lopsided, and the possibility is very likely that one team will drastically outperform the other, with the players that have more experience doing the majority of the work.

Imagine now that individual players from both of these groups have their stats compared against each other, competing for the same prize of being labeled, "One of the top 15 football players."

The kid with some high school level football experience in a neighborhood game may score 10 touchdowns in a single game, whereas it's extremely unlikely any professional player will ever do that in a professional game.

The problem is, when it comes down to just stats, the neighborhood kid ends up looking better than the professional players, despite the fact that the professional players are technically better.

Edited by Aresye, 26 October 2014 - 12:18 PM.


#66 Writhenn

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:29 PM

View PostBudor, on 25 October 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

I am still not convinced that there are so many different "elo" brackets to be honest, probably because the playerbase is just to small.

Today i played Stormcrows on my alt account because thats the only mechs i own there besides a nova. I thought i might aswell opt in while grinding double basics and maybe get some free mc.

I see the exact same people in my games i did in the last tourney on my main account and the teams are just as mixed containing everything from the poorest to the most skillfull players.



Many of the pilots on the leaderboard I have not seen at all, even for one match. So it really makes one wonder how they can score so well and not get bumped up to the higher elo brackets.

#67 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:29 PM

View PostAresye, on 26 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

The middle/average Elo bracket, as somebody mentioned before, has the widest variation and least consistency in performance, so a player in the average Elo bracket actually has a higher chance of getting a high scoring game, and it will happen more often.

I bolded an assumption that I don't believe to be the case.
You are assuming that someone just happens upon a mystical game, and can do so repeatedly within a weekend. That an amazing enough game to score on these leaderboards takes no actual skill, but all luck. Do you realize the kind of statement that is? I'm sorry but without the ability to learn from your mistakes, I don't believe the infinite monkey typewriter situations holds here. Given an infinite amount of chances, some players will just never be able to put up scores past a certain threshold without learning from mistakes imo (and that takes more than a weekend for most).

Are top tier pilots disadvantaged at getting these opportunities to exploit the system? Yes, but they are more apt at making full use of these opportunities when they get them not to mention obviously they CAN put in enough time to still get enough good opportunities to place themselves high enough on most of the leaderboards, about as much time as it probably took most other players to even get within the top 100 (or the "abusers" to place in the top 15).

This isn't even broaching the subject that there a different levels of high scoring game and that the gap between a 160 and 200 point match is not equivalent to the gap between a 200 and 240 point match in terms of the skill necessary to achieve them.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 October 2014 - 12:33 PM.


#68 Flyby215

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:34 PM

I like the idea where we just generically indicate players' bracket. Maybe a Diamond next to players' names who are 2200+, a Gold Star for 1800-2199, etc. Keep everything else as is, but at least there's a tip of the hat (some sort of recognition) for those players who are in the toughest bracket compared to players in a lower bracket but higher tournament score.

#69 Squarebasher

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:46 PM

View PostNKAc Street, on 25 October 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

tourney winners don't mean ****, get over it,


I agree but they are giving away in game cash, so there is an issue.

From what I have seen a lot of these players at the top of the leader board are hidders, they wait and then near the end of a game their side looks like winning they come out and clean up.

#70 Zoid

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:47 PM

The tournaments have so much wrong with them already, this is just one piece. You need to play so many games because your team needs to be good enough to win, but not so good that they kill everything before you get the chance to do so.

I've already had 2 200+ point games in my KFX that didn't count because my team didn't win (because they were awful and 5 of them died within 2 minutes), so I've given up on this tournament.

I don't know what would make a better tournament format and not require you to just play until you get lucky, but this definitely isn't it.

#71 Squarebasher

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:54 PM

PGI are putting to many points into the kills and not teamwork.

#72 Budor

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:59 PM

View PostWrithen, on 26 October 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:



Many of the pilots on the leaderboard I have not seen at all, even for one match. So it really makes one wonder how they can score so well and not get bumped up to the higher elo brackets.


Well i havent seen the guy that is 2nd or 3rd in Crows (thisgamerocks) a single time either, on the other hand i played on a alt account (Lhaim) and still got you and all the other "names" in my games non stop.

Maybe coincidence maybe there is a underhive, we'll prolly never know ^^

Edited by Budor, 26 October 2014 - 01:01 PM.


#73 Aresye

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 01:22 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 26 October 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I bolded an assumption that I don't believe to be the case.
You are assuming that someone just happens upon a mystical game, and can do so repeatedly within a weekend. That an amazing enough game to score on these leaderboards takes no actual skill, but all luck. Do you realize the kind of statement that is? I'm sorry but without the ability to learn from your mistakes, I don't believe the infinite monkey typewriter situations holds here. Given an infinite amount of chances, some players will just never be able to put up scores past a certain threshold without learning from mistakes imo (and that takes more than a weekend for most).


An above average player has a better chance of doing exceptionally well in the average Elo bracket than a top tier player does in the high Elo bracket. Both are good players. Heck, both could even theoretically be at the same skill and ability.

In a perfect world, they would both be on the leaderboard with scores very close to each other, but that's not the case.

#74 Deathlike

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 01:34 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 26 October 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:


It's changing for the next one.

https://twitter.com/...153509297995777


Oh, how the heck I'm gonna farm work for the scores now? :P


The thing about winning a tourney... is all about winning. This sounds dreadfully obvious. When you win more often, your Elo changes positively, so it difficult to "game" the act of winning (outside of "rigging").

The whole thing about Elo that it is predicated on is that, if you generally do everything to win, you'll probably going to win. There's nothing mythical or magical about that, especially when there are actual matches when all the tourney notables show up in one match. It's not a random event.

For those in lower Elo brackets or "alt accounts", you still have to win to do anything worth of consequence. I guess you could just be a strict C-bill farmer in those to lower the Elo, but for the most part, Elo would "self correct" to a degree. It will never be perfect though.

With how the tourney as currently designed, it is very difficult to get everyone "to play at the same time willingly", when the tourney itself is a semi-casual type of event. I mean, people massively grind and that can't be stopped... but if you want to be "all inclusive" of the playerbase that is willing to opt in, it's a logistics nightmare to get the top tier players to schedule a time to play against each other. Remember... we're considering players from all timezones... and at best it could be "done" in a weekend. There is no perfect method, so it is what it is.

#75 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 01:41 PM

View PostAresye, on 26 October 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:


An above average player has a better chance of doing exceptionally well in the average Elo bracket than a top tier player does in the high Elo bracket. Both are good players. Heck, both could even theoretically be at the same skill and ability.

In a perfect world, they would both be on the leaderboard with scores very close to each other, but that's not the case.

Again, that's an assumption you make that lower ELO players are able to put up the same match score as a higher ELO player given the distance of a gap in skill between a game's average and that player is equal. I don't believe that to be the case, but what do I know *shrug*.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 October 2014 - 01:41 PM.


#76 Adiuvo

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 01:47 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 26 October 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Again, that's an assumption you make that lower ELO players are able to put up the same match score as a higher ELO player given the distance of a gap in skill between a game's average and that player is equal. I don't believe that to be the case, but what do I know *shrug*.

People post enough 1k damage screenshots here that it's obvious that everyone will get a few. They don't understand why they get that damage or how to reproduce it, but luck happens.

#77 Vassago Rain

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 01:53 PM

Elo is a no fun allowed score. If it was working flawlessly, every match would end in 12-0 or 0-12.

That's the entire reason it exists.

#78 Murphy7

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 02:06 PM

View PostDYSEQTA, on 25 October 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Perhaps the opt-in tournaments should be ELO free but run on a separate server so as not to upset those not talking part.



I do wish they would either change the scoring system AND/OR for these leaderboard-type tournaments have a separate queue for them. Whether you opt in or not, the solo queue this weekend has been about as bad as I have ever seen it.

#79 DAYLEET

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 02:29 PM

While i agree that more time equal better score, saying elo affect the score is just way dumb.

#80 MischiefSC

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 03:40 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 25 October 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

1 point between 1800 to 2000 is worth more than 1 point in a middle Elo rating.

You've just pointed out how easy it actually is as well. 400 points is actually more than I thought I could do in 50 losses.


Again, about 1/2 of your matches you can even lose points on. A bit less. You'll lose about 20 puts on those. You're going to still gain points on about 1/2 your wins, so you'd need to lose about 50 more than you win to drop about 400 or more points. That's going to take hard work and sandbagging a hundred matches.

That's like 10 hours or more of work and a significant risk of getting a ban. Why not just spend that same effort on winning?





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