24 replies to this topic

[Xarian]

So a great many people are tired of being pounded on by LRMs in solo queue. This is kinda obvious - here's why:

• TAG/NARC spamming gets you more C-Bills than any other method.
  
• TAG/NARC spamming helps LRM spamming.
  
• LRM spamming gets you C-Bills fairly reliably (and did before).
  
• LRM spamming is even easier in the presence of TAG/NARC spam.

Let's also start with a couple of observations:

• Before the reward change, LRM spam was present but not nearly as much.
  
• In terms of helping your team win or lose a match, LRMs are balanced.

So the main problem here isn't that LRMs are overpowered in-match - it's that the game currently gives you too many C-Bills for using them. Solution?

• People don't want to run TAG/NARC all the time - they run TAG/NARC to get more C-Bills.
  
• If people had other options to earn C-Bills, they would use them instead of TAG/NARC.

So, there you have it: give people better ways to earn C-Bills, and TAG/NARC usage will decrease. When TAG/NARC usage decreases, so will LRM spam. How can this happen? First, look at the changes that PGI wants to implement but hasn't yet:

• Make TAG/NARC bonus only work for LRMs. This will stop TAG/NARC on direct-fire mechs.
  
• Make Flanking bonus only work for non-LRMs. This will help decrease LRM spam.

Second, add in some changes to reduce the easy/dishonorable/team-hurting usage of TAG/NARC:

• Make TAG/NARC bonus work only on damage over a certain amount (not dealt by yourself) - no bonus on kill. People with TAG/NARC will be forced to use them for their team's benefit, and not just to get a quick C-Bill bonus if the mech is about to die.
  
• Increase TAG/NARC bonus by 100%.

Third, add in some bonuses to get C-Bills without using TAG/NARC:

• Increase Flanking bonus by 100%.
  
• Increase Hit-and-Run bonus by 100%.
  
• Increase Brawling bonus by 100%.
  
• Bonuses for neglected roles: add bonuses for tanking and aggressive rushing.
  
• Diminishing returns! The highest "primary" bonus gets you the full reward. The second-highest "primary" bonus gets you half rewards. The third-highest "primary" bonus gets you one-third rewards, and so on.

Fourth, give LRM boats a real role:

• Defensive Support: bonus for hurting an enemy mech with LRMs shortly before or after that mech shoots a friendly mech (not yourself)
  
• Offensive Support: bonus for hurting an enemy mech with LRMs shortly before or after that mech is shot by a friendly mech (not yourself)

So, there you have it. Put in those changes and LRM boating will still be a viable way to play the game, but people will play other roles too.

Edited by Xarian, 28 October 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

I dont mind lrms. Right now almost every map lrms boats get loaded to have tons of of cover. When i get bored and load up a lrms boat 75% of the time it loads mining.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 28 October 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[FupDup]

So what you're saying is that we should address the problem instead of the symptoms of the problem?

[Joe Mallad]

Like I have said, you want to cut down on the use of TAG and NARC Spamming, make these variant only specific just like ECM. Not every mech in the game can mount ECM which makes its a role warfare system. If people want to run ECM and be the ECM guy/gal for their team, than guess what? You have to take one of the few mechs in the game that has it.

The same should go for NARC, TAG and so on. And the mechs that would have these systems (just like ECM) would be the mechs you would have to run if you want to run these specialty systems. The same is being done with AMS right? It's only on select mechs.

But there are TAG changes coming very soon anyway...

[Joseph Mallan]

I will just say I don't use any of that equipment, run a brawler, and am not having pain over Missiles still.

[Joe Mallad]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I will just say I don't use any of that equipment, run a brawler, and am not having pain over Missiles still.

the issue I see right now is that using NARC and TAG is just to convenient for the "farmers" and that issue is leading into more missile mechs popping up because they are feeding off of the insurgence of NARC AND TAG on the field. So most of the easy button missile spam is directly coming from the TAG NARC farming.

Stop the TAG NARC farming and most of the easy button missile spamming should stop

[Belorion]

Why would they want to reduce the number of LRMs?

[Kitty Bacon]

Why not, you know. Keep LRMs and narc/tag the way it is but give rewards for using AMS? that way people will be encouraged to run AMS. Plus it would make the 3 AMS and 2 AMS mechs more viable because they will be rewarded for being ran. I mean, no one runs AMS so LRMs are dominant XD

[Triordinant]

Belorion, on 28 October 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Why would they want to reduce the number of LRMs?

Russ Bullock said he wanted to reduce the number of LRMs on Twitter.

[Joe Mallad]

Triordinant, on 28 October 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Russ Bullock said he wanted to reduce the number of LRMs on Twitter.

reduce how? The only way I can see them effectively reducing the number is one of 3 ways.

1. Make the reload times a lot longer, making it so you don't fire as many as often.
2. Cut the number of Missile hard points on most missile based mechs, so you can't take as many missiles.
3. Put a hard cap on the amount of missile ammo you can carry, effectively cutting off the number of missiles you can fire. This one I see not happening as much as the first 2.

[Xarian]

Yoseful Mallad, on 28 October 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

reduce how? The only way I can see them effectively reducing the number is one of 3 ways.

1. Make the reload times a lot longer, making it so you don't fire as many as often.
2. Cut the number of Missile hard points on most missile based mechs, so you can't take as many missiles.
3. Put a hard cap on the amount of missile ammo you can carry, effectively cutting off the number of missiles you can fire. This one I see not happening as much as the first 2.

He wanted to reduce the amount of LRMs used, not the power of LRMs.

Option 4. Give more C-Bills for non-LRM mechs.

Edited by Xarian, 28 October 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Joe Mallad]

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

He wanted to reduce the amount of LRMs used, not the power of LRMs.

Option 4. Give more C-Bills for non-LRM mechs.

you don't ever want to give c-bills for not using something. That's counter productive. And all 3 of my points do and can reduce the amount of LRMs on the field.

[Kitty Bacon]

Yoseful Mallad, on 28 October 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

reduce how? The only way I can see them effectively reducing the number is one of 3 ways.

1. Make the reload times a lot longer, making it so you don't fire as many as often.
2. Cut the number of Missile hard points on most missile based mechs, so you can't take as many missiles.
3. Put a hard cap on the amount of missile ammo you can carry, effectively cutting off the number of missiles you can fire. This one I see not happening as much as the first 2.

Or option 4, buff the mechs that carry dual AMS so there is a reason to carry it. Give us Cbils/XP for shooting down missiles. Give the ones that chose to devote weight into AMS a reason to keep LRMs away from allies.

[Mechteric]

Sorry but there was plenty of LRM spamming before CBill rewards for Narc were worthwhile. I'm honestly spent on this topic, there's been plenty of ideas put forth, good and bad, and we just have to wait on the devs to crawl their way to a solution.

[Brody319]

How about instead of decreasing them, you REWARD mechs for bringing counters.
AMS coverage reward
ECM coverage reward.

They would have to be pretty significant but you would see a lot of lights bringing ecm, and a lot of bigger mechs bringing AMS.

my proposed rewards:
50CB and 10XP for every mech under ECM covered every 20 seconds. (If my ECM is covering 10 teamates, I get 500 CB and 100XP for every 20 seconds I cover them.
10CB and 10XP for every point of damage stopped my AMS. (If you launch 10 lrms and my AMS stops 5, then every point of damage those missiles would have done, is multiplied by 10 and given as CB and XP)

these would vastly increase the use of ECM and AMS. but now the current system rewards mechs helping LRM boats rather than rewarding people who bring counter systems.

[Almond Brown]

Yoseful Mallad, on 28 October 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

reduce how? The only way I can see them effectively reducing the number is one of 3 ways.

1. Make the reload times a lot longer, making it so you don't fire as many as often.
2. Cut the number of Missile hard points on most missile based mechs, so you can't take as many missiles.
3. Put a hard cap on the amount of missile ammo you can carry, effectively cutting off the number of missiles you can fire. This one I see not happening as much as the first 2.

4. Reduce the ammo/ton to 120 missiles. Then players would need to sacrifice more weight, armor, engine whatever, to maintain missile load counts.

Brody319, on 28 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

How about instead of decreasing them, you REWARD mechs for bringing counters.
AMS coverage reward
ECM coverage reward.

stuff

LOL! ECM already has a coverage reward. Carry, or be inside any ECM bubble, and you don't have to taste the bitter sweet "Steel Rain".

A true coverage reward if ever there was one.

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 October 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[627]

Man you guys.. we waited years, *years* to finally get a narc that is useful and not a joke. And then we waited month that we get a reward so that finally someone uses this equipment and you finally get some kind of role warefare and on top of that some kind of team play... and now you just want to nerf that back to the ground?

We already have a completely useless weapon in this game, why do you want to add more? because you can't dance in the rain?

[Lyoto Machida]

Almond Brown, on 28 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

4. Reduce the ammo/ton to 120 missiles. Then players would need to sacrifice more weight, armor, engine whatever, to maintain missile load counts.

How about just reducing all ammo down to TT levels?

AC20 - 5 shots per ton
UAC5 - 20 shots per ton
LRM10 - 10 shots per ton
etc...

Also, add heat penalties to the game (for energy weapon drawbacks) and make DHS 2.0 to compensate.

[AlphaToaster]

Good post Xarian.

Has anyone else ever tried an all dual ams lance?

4 mechs w/ 8 AMS between them all configured for brawling.

Another method is to play "catcher" using a triple AMS/ECM kitfox or a dual ams light like a locust or firestarter. You load up on lots of AMS ammo and modules. You spend your game with your camera aimed up and you position yourself next to whoever is getting focused by lrms. Lots of running around as the lrms change targets.

It's actually kind of fun. For every mech you save you more than make up for your lack of firepower.

[AlmightyAeng]

Or...increase the rewards for brawling or direct fire so everyone isn't taking a NARC/TAG to supplement?