161 replies to this topic

[Xarian]

So here are the quirks for the Spider 5V:

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Spider 5V - Tier 5 Skirmisher

Medium Pulse Laser Range +12.5%
Energy Weapon Range +12.5%
Medium Pulse Cooldown +12.5%
Energy Weapon Cooldown +12.5%
Medium Pulse Duration -12.5%
Laser Weapon Duration -12.5%
Medium Pulse Heat Gen -12.5%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -12.5%

And here is the stock loadout of the Spider 5V:

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Armament

• 2xMedium Lasers

And here is what you get in Smurfy if you try to run 2x Medium Pulse Lasers:

Quote

Smurfy link

This is not a viable build. Why? It's too slow. Here are the commandments for using the Spider 5V:

• If you are not using long-ranged weapons, then you must take the largest engine that you can - this applies to all very light mechs
  
• You must take all of your jump jets - this is the only unique feature of the Spider 5V. Otherwise, just take the Spider 5D or 5K because they are better in every respect.
  
• You must take as much armor as you can - except for your Arms, because they are useless on the Spider 5V

Now, the Spider 5V is, as of right now, arguably the worst mech in the entire game. Why?

• It's a light mech with 6 tons and 12 critical slots worth of jump jets
  
• Because it uses so many critical slots, you cannot take Ferro Fibrous Armor with an XL engine
  
• All of its hardpoints are on the center torso - if you want to use a long-ranged weapon, you cannot use a TAG
  
• Only two hardpoints and both are energy, so your alpha strike will always be terrible
  
• Jump Jets aren't very good after various nerfs, and that's the only special thing about the 5V
  
• 12 Jump Jets gets you less than 2x the lift height as 4 Jump Jets, but requires 3x the investment
  
• Extremely easy to leg yourself unless you barely use the Jump Jets at all... in which case, you might as well use the Spider 5D or 5K.

So having these quirks just further makes the 5V the worst Spider, and further cements its position as the worst mech in the game. Look at the quirks on the Locusts if you want an example of great quirks given to bad, extremely light mechs.

There are a bunch of problems with these quirks by themselves, too:

• -25% laser duration is meaningless on Medium Pulse Lasers. The duration is 0.6 seconds base, and goes down to 0.45 seconds. These are essentially the same value.
  
• +25% range is slightly better but not much. Your range goes up to 275, which is the same as a Medium Laser.
  
• -25% heat on Medium Pulse Lasers is meaningless - the mech only carries a maximum of two of them. Heat doesn't matter; the mech can't even equip an ERPPC.

So here are a couple of things that need to be changed:

• Switch all quirks over to Medium Lasers instead of Medium Pulse Lasers. They are on the stock build, anyway.
  
• Remove the -Heat quirk for energy weapons.
  
• Add new quirk: -75% damage taken from falls (stacks with Shock Absorption, giving you 100% fall damage reduction)
  
• Add new quirk: +5% Jump Jet fuel and Jump Jet fuel regeneration rate for each equipped Jump Jet (maximum 60% with 12 Jump Jets)
  
• Add new quirk: -50% Jump Jet heat generation

I'll restate a couple things:

• Quirks are meant to make each chassis unique - to give you a reason to pick that chassis.
  
• The only unique thing about the Spider 5V is its huge amount of Jump Jets. Every other variant has superior equipment selection and hardpoints. If you are going to drop Jump Jets, you should take a different variant.

Edited by Xarian, 29 October 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Remove the -Heat quirk for energy weapons. Heat doesn't matter unless you are using an EPPC, and these quirks are supposed to be buffing short-ranged 'skirmisher' builds.


Why would you do that, you can put and ERPPC on and have it generate less heat.

Also

Medium Pulse Laser Range +12.5%
Energy Weapon Range +12.5%
Medium Pulse Cooldown +12.5%
Energy Weapon Cooldown +12.5%
Medium Pulse Duration -12.5%
Laser Weapon Duration -12.5%
Medium Pulse Heat Gen -12.5%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -12.5%

Add on Cooldown and range modules and you have and additonal %12 cooldown speed etc.

So now your MPL range is about 300M
Cooldown on it is down to 2.25s
Speed of firing is no 0.45s

Right there the weapon is a whole second faster to fire, so your DPS goes from 1.67 in to the 2.2 Range per MPL

4.4 DPS is close to a friggin AC20.

heat is also down in to the 3.45 range. per shot.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

• If you are not using long-ranged weapons, then you must take the largest engine that you can - this applies to all very light mechs
  
• You must take all of your jump jets - this is the only unique feature of the Spider 5V. Otherwise, just take the Spider 5D or 5K because they are better in every respect.

You're being silly. You don't have to take all of the jump jets, and you don't have to take the biggest engine.

Look at this build. I dropped just one jump jet and shaved off a couple points of armor in the arms and head and was able to fit in FF and an XL280. Or you could drop another jet to fully max the engine. Either way, you'll be flying higher than any other mech in the field.

I do agree that energy heat quirks are kind of pointless. I would very much rather have your jump jet and fall damage quirks.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 29 October 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[SweetJackal]

Actually, no. You cannot put an ERPPC in as PPCs take 3 critical slots, the CT only has 2 critical slots after engine.

As for the 5V not being able to use MPLs, just drop 4 JJ if you need max engine sizes. Just like there is a difference between Max JJ and Getting High Enough there is a difference between Maxing Engine Size and Going Fast Enough.

MPLs are chosen as they have the highest DPS for the use of those hardpoints (which are cripplingly limiting in the first place) and as point out before the heat generation reduction matters as firing faster means an increase in heat per second. Still, would rather have the MPL cooldown quirk be a x2 quirk to squeeze more power out of it.

[DONTOR]

WTF are you talking about? You dont need max JJs! Just delete them till you have 4 tons left and all will be well. 2MPLs is actually pretty good on the spder 5V now, it will be even better.

[Xarian]

SuckyJack, on 29 October 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Actually, no. You cannot put an ERPPC in as PPCs take 3 critical slots, the CT only has 2 critical slots after engine.

As for the 5V not being able to use MPLs, just drop 4 JJ if you need max engine sizes. Just like there is a difference between Max JJ and Getting High Enough there is a difference between Maxing Engine Size and Going Fast Enough.

MPLs are chosen as they have the highest DPS for the use of those hardpoints (which are cripplingly limiting in the first place) and as point out before the heat generation reduction matters as firing faster means an increase in heat per second. Still, would rather have the MPL cooldown quirk be a x2 quirk to squeeze more power out of it.

Fixed the bit about the PPC.

And no, there really isn't a difference between "going as fast as possible" and "going fast enough". On a mech that uses extremely short-ranged weapons, you need to move as fast as possible. Speed is life and death.

As I said, if you are going to drop Jump Jets, then you should just move to a different chassis.

[Summer]

Xarian is spot on. The 5V, before the fall damage nerf, used to be my go to mech for conquest matches. I've won countless times in this mech with only me left on the battlefield. Combined with max JJ, it's 170kph speed, and capture accelerator, it's pretty much an unstoppable capping machine. But now that you can't even use the jets to their max height without legging yourself on landing it's completely useless. I can't believe PGI thinks laser buffs would make this any good at all. I would be happy if they only added one quirk, fall damage immunity.

[Ace Selin]

There's lots of energy weapon buffs included for the mech snd for those that think outside the box a little get some pulse laser buffs. The spider certainly doesnt need max JJ or engine to play well (for me to do well in it), though you may need those to play decently.

To the above poster, the spider should not get fall immunity for the exact reason your example proves, it would always be the last mech standing. Having played all the spiders pre fall damage, the spiders were all unstoppable killing machines you could do anything with - we dont need such game breaking mechs again.

Edited by Ace Selin, 29 October 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Or take one med pulse laser and get all the bonuses. Then learn to play. try and ambush someone from behind. i think that single weapon with those bonuses are dangerous, but we shall see.

[Durant Carlyle]

I will certainly take the quirks as listed by Russ. It'll make my SDR-5V even better than it already is. I have a great deal of fun in it as it is. I want the next patch to be here NAO!!

[SweetJackal]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Fixed the bit about the PPC.

And no, there really isn't a difference between "going as fast as possible" and "going fast enough". On a mech that uses extremely short-ranged weapons, you need to move as fast as possible. Speed is life and death.

As I said, if you are going to drop Jump Jets, then you should just move to a different chassis.

There is also a difference between using speed/positioning to avoid being hit and using speed/positioning to avoid being targeted by players. Speed merely extends the safety leash from backup.

Also, taking all the JJ only matters if you use all of those JJs. Not using all of your thrust or being wasteful with that thrust is wasting tonnage.

The 5V has been considered a bad mech from it's inception and the other spiders declared far better anyways. Getting the most DPS increase out of it's hardpoints atleast tries to give it some reason for existence.

Summer, on 29 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Xarian is spot on. The 5V, before the fall damage nerf, used to be my go to mech for conquest matches. I've won countless times in this mech with only me left on the battlefield. Combined with max JJ, it's 170kph speed, and capture accelerator, it's pretty much an unstoppable capping machine. But now that you can't even use the jets to their max height without legging yourself on landing it's completely useless. I can't believe PGI thinks laser buffs would make this any good at all. I would be happy if they only added one quirk, fall damage immunity.

Actually this is meaning that the Fall Damage changes should be looked at for what they are doing to light mechs as those changes were designed to impact heavier mechs. Before the change the Heavy and Assault classes weren't affected by fall damage and able to fall distances that would damage lights without taking a scratch.

There is no debating that the fall damage changes that were designed to make fall damage impact heavier mechs more than lighter mechs instead punished light mechs even further. I was concerned when they talked about how the design was going to be linking fall damage to speed at impact and how easy it could be for the engine to make mistakes.

This is the reason why these JJ changes and fall damage changes continue to need further tuning.

Edited by SuckyJack, 29 October 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Xarian]

Sorry guys, "Learn to play" is not an effective argument. It is an ad hominem attack and adds nothing to the discussion.

A good player in a bad mech will beat a bad player in a bad mech.
A good player in a good mech will beat a good player in a good mech.

A mech with one medium pulse laser is a bad mech.
A mech with two medium pulse lasers, weak armor, and running at 129 kph is also a bad mech.

[Bront]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

And here is what you get in Smurfy if you try to run 2x Medium Pulse Lasers:

SDR-5V

This is not a viable build. Why? It's too slow. Here are the commandments for using the Spider 5V:

• If you are not using long-ranged weapons, then you must take the largest engine that you can - this applies to all very light mechs
  
• You must take all of your jump jets - this is the only unique feature of the Spider 5V. Otherwise, just take the Spider 5D or 5K because they are better in every respect.
  
• You must take as much armor as you can - except for your Arms, because they are useless on the Spider 5V.

Why is that not viable? Spiders used to go that fast without an issue.

Want to go as fast as you can? You have to give up 4 JJs. Simple. That still leaves you with 8. Or you could split the difference and mount 10 and a slightly larger engine.

Meanwhile, 2 MPLs are the most DPS you can do in the 5V, and you now get a durration reduction (more DPS per shot), head reduction (can simply keep firing) a cooldown reduction (fires faster, more DPS) and heat gen reduction (counters the extra heat from everything else). that's over a 25% boost to DPS with no downside, while your MPLs have a range longer than standard MLs by default. Throw in the cooldown and range modules, and it's actually pretty scary as is with the build you posted,.

[Tastian]

I would love to see real mech quirks, not just buffs to weapon specs but maybe stuff like; the Spider 5V has 3 CT crit slots. That way it could have an ERPPC or a Large Laser and a Medium Laser. And maybe the Locusts (and other lights) could allow less then 10 heat sinks.

[3rdworld]

you lose 3 JJs, add Fero and you now have a max engine.

3 JJs....you still have 1 more than any other spider can equip.

[Glucose]

Max engine, 10 JJs, 2 Med Pulse --

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f7d9e0915d4b2dc

Edited by Glucose, 29 October 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Destoroyah]

I respectable disagree about the pulse laser focus being a bad thing, but agree that the heat gen reduction isn't so needed and can easily be shifted to the range to double up on the range quirk. On a side note since the 5V is a tier 5 mech it's supposed to get 5 weapon quirks but only has 4 listed none of which are doubled up.

I also full heartedly agree about the JJ boost the 5V should be the god of JJ's at full capacity but is rather meh improvments when compared to light mechs with 60% less. A Retro Thruster quirk to further reduce fall damage(Scales on number of JJ like 4% each JJ) would be awesome. Also Improved thrust speed and distance(based on number of JJs) would be another awesome addition.

Edited by Destoroyah, 29 October 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Bront]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

A mech with one medium pulse laser is a bad mech.
A mech with two medium pulse lasers, weak armor, and running at 129 kph is also a bad mech.

Except in this case, it's going 151.5 (or faster).

Not saying the 5V is suddently going to be the Meta, but it now has a purpose.

[Xarian]

SuckyJack, on 29 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

There is also a difference between using speed/positioning to avoid being hit and using speed/positioning to avoid being targeted by players. Speed merely extends the safety leash from backup.

Also, taking all the JJ only matters if you use all of those JJs. Not using all of your thrust or being wasteful with that thrust is wasting tonnage.

The 5V has been considered a bad mech from it's inception and the other spiders declared far better anyways. Getting the most DPS increase out of it's hardpoints atleast tries to give it some reason for existence.

Mechs need more than a "reason to exist".

The Spider 5V should be able to use all of its JJs effectively. It's the only unique thing about the mech.
You cannot use speed to avoid being targeted by players if you're in plain line of sight within 200 meters. That's why close-range builds need so much more speed than long-range builds. You can get away with running 100 kph or slower if you have an ERLL (or ERPPC on a different variant) because you aren't dodging missiles and constantly bobbing/weaving.

We shouldn't just discard the 5V as a bad mech and say "eh, quirks don't matter that much - the 5V is so bad that we'll take what we can get!". That represents a complete and utter failure of the new quirk system.

5V needs quirks to make it a viable Light choice. These quirks don't do that, and they don't play to the Spider 5V's strengths whatsoever. Even the best 5V build was bad before; these quirks are supporting a bad build and doing a poor job of it.

[Goose]

Pull one jet, add ferro, downgrade one medium pulse for small pulse, or a normal medium (if you swing that way,) mount a 285XL, and puzzle out armor placement on your own time.

If only I could get the Jester paint scheam on the fool thing …