83 replies to this topic

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

The Hunchback-4G and -4H quirks are also lacking a grounding in MW:O. The -4H is designed to run an AC/20 with 5ML, and the -4G is only meant to running multiple ballistics that the -4H is incapable of mounting.

This is MW:O, not BT:O.

Actually the -4G and-4H quirks are examples of great quirks that fit the mech's intended role.

The -4G is the slugger/ambusher with half its punch in the hunch, and the -4H is a skirmisher that can take longer-range autocannon shots while supplementing with even more lasers.

I just don't get why people have this hate-on for emphasizing a mech's intended design. It's like they want just a single chassis for each weight class, just a big generic bag of guns with good hardpoints. If you treat mechs as only collections of hardpoints and hitboxes, then all your builds end up the same, and that's boring as hell.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 29 October 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Actually the -4G and-4H quirks are examples of great quirks that fit the mech's intended role.

The -4G is the slugger/ambusher with half its punch in the hunch, and the -4H is a skirmisher that can take longer-range autocannon shots while supplementing with even more lasers.

I just don't get why people have this hate-on for emphasizing a mech's intended design. It's like they want just a single chassis for each weight class, just a big generic bag of guns with good hardpoints. If you treat mechs as only collections of hardpoints and hitboxes, then all your builds end up the same, and that's boring as hell.

The Hunchback-4G has multiple ballistic hardpoints.

PGI "intended" it to run multiple ballistics.

This is MW:O, not BT:O.

Only in BattleTech is the -4G meant to run an AC/20 backed-up with MLs. In MechWarrior: Online, the -4H mounts an AC/20 with 5ML, which is superior to the -4G's ability to run an AC/20 backed with only 3ML.

The -4G is meant to run other builds, the -4H is meant to run an AC/20. Remember - Mechwarrior, not BattleTech.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 29 October 2014 - 09:12 PM.

[Mothykins]

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

The Hunchback-4G has multiple ballistic hardpoints.

PGI "intended" it to run multiple ballistics.

This is MW:O, not BT:O.

Only in BattleTech is the -4G meant to run an AC/20 backed-up with MLs. In MechWarrior: Online, the -4H mounts an AC/20 with 5ML, which is superior to the -4G's ability to run an AC/20 backed with only 3ML.

The -4G is meant to run other builds, the -4H is meant to run an AC/20. Remember - Mechwarrior, not BattleTech.

There where some very... interesting things done with loadouts.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

The Hunchback-4G has multiple ballistic hardpoints.

PGI "intended" it to run multiple ballistics.

This is MW:O, not BT:O.

The HBK-4G has multiple ballistic hardpoints because every mech that comes with an AC20 stock gets multiple ballistic hardpoints.

Notice that the 4H, which comes with an AC10 stock, only gets the one hardpoint. Because it gets an AC10 instead of an AC20.

And yes, this is BTO. It's right on the front page: "MWO: A BattleTech Game"

[Kjudoon]

UrsusMorologus, on 29 October 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Nobody will use the stock RVN-4X even after buff

Nobody runs stock anything anyway except as a joke/theme/experiment night. This isn't even a valid point.

Edited by Kjudoon, 29 October 2014 - 09:13 PM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Kjudoon, on 29 October 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Nobody runs stock anything anyway except as a joke/theme/experiment night. This isn't even a valid point.

People run stock mechs seriously. Unless I am the only one.

And yes, when I buy a RVN-4X I will be running it stock. MLs, SRM6, MGs and JJs seems like a pretty good mix.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Kjudoon, on 29 October 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Nobody runs stock anything anyway except as a joke/theme/experiment night. This isn't even a valid point.

It's a perfectly valid point if you're arguing that the Quirk system is marred by the fact that it buff only certain loadouts as sanctioned by the Developers.

[Kjudoon]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 29 October 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

People run stock mechs seriously. Unless I am the only one.

And yes, when I buy a RVN-4X I will be running it stock. MLs, SRM6, MGs and JJs seems like a pretty good mix.

You would be the first I've heard of. My RVN 4X is an LRM centered version. Still working on it. Wanted to pack in the LRM15, but just can't get the mix right because AMS renders anything under 20 tubes worthless.

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

It's a perfectly valid point if you're arguing that the Quirk system is marred by the fact that it buff only certain loadouts as sanctioned by the Developers.

Okay, I concede that point.

[Mercules]

Brody319, on 29 October 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

They also had it so you instantly knew where the enemy was, and you were just playing chest to set your mechs up in the correct positions.

If you played the "Beginner" version of the rules. Whenever we could we played by the Double Blind rules which means you didn't have a clue where the enemy was because you had two separate tables and a GM who determined what you could see on your table based off a complex set of rules. What scanners you used, ECM, and all kinds of other things would influence what the enemy detected. That would be why I could run a Firestarter out on it's own, start a ton of fires and walk him in behind them then flank with my full force while they tried to set up for my "force" of mechs moving in under cover of smoke.

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Too much is derived from BattleTech.

Weird, a game derived from Battletech is derived from Battletech. Whoda thunk?

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

The Hunchback-4G and -4H quirks are also lacking a grounding in MW:O. The -4H is designed to run an AC/20 with 5ML, and the -4G is only meant to running multiple ballistics that the -4H is incapable of mounting.

This is MW:O, not BT:O.

MW:O is BT:O. Mechwarrior is entirely based off Battletech. No Battletech = No Mechwarrior.

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

It's a perfectly valid point if you're arguing that the Quirk system is marred by the fact that it buff only certain loadouts as sanctioned by the Developers.

You mean the guys who decide how the game plays might be deciding how the game plays? How scandalous.

Edited by Mercules, 29 October 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

I don't see any Meta-oriented quirk trend. I *do* see a Table-Top-focused trend, but not a Meta Trend.

Since when are Catapult A1 missile quirks "meta-fuel?" It only has missile hardpoints.
Kintaros with LRM5 quirks? Yeah, super Meta. You know how we all fear the LRM Quickdraws that flood the servers.
Don't forget those Medium Pulse Laser Spider 5V's that dominate the competitive scene.

If you assign the flaws of this quirk-pass to "Meta" then you are really just complaining for the sake of complaining. If you want to complain, complain about how these quirk passes are weapon-specific instead of component-specific. Mechs are unique by their components - Shoulders with big cannons, Arms with missile banks. etc. Components make the Mechs what they are, not just the specific weapon that's mounted there on an irrelevant TRO sheet.

We have a Mechlab. We have hardpoints. Hardpoints are assigned to components. Quirks should be based on components, where the weapons get mounted. Weapons we choose in Mechlab, not off a paper sheet.

So the K2 built around Lasers and AC10s doesn't seem Meta oriented? Locust around ER LLAser? SRMs on CN9-D?

Some are built with a logical "stock primary/general secondary" quirk set. Others are ridiculously built along the lines many of the Champions were, to the pet builds of NGNG guys and the Comp crowds.

I have no problem with comp oriented Quirks but they should ALWAYS be secondary quirks, with the intended roles and weapons shining as primary.

[Tesunie]

Kjudoon, on 29 October 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

You would be the first I've heard of. My RVN 4X is an LRM centered version. Still working on it. Wanted to pack in the LRM15, but just can't get the mix right because AMS renders anything under 20 tubes worthless.

MWO:Mechlab - RVN-4X
My Raven 4X build... Artemis LRM15 launcher. Use ammo wisely. LRM to open wholes, use speed and lasers/MGs to take a section and run away laughing. Works very well for me and is the deadliest Raven I have (if not one of my deadliest mechs I own).

[Past]

Seems to me about 50% hate weapon specific Quirks and 50% seem to like the idea. I really don't think they should introduce something that half the community dislikes.

Didn't they revert the match mode select being a preference back based on a smaller than 50% amount of people hating on it rather than the greater majority who thought quicker Que times and better matchmaking were worth it?

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 October 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

So the K2 built around Lasers and AC10s doesn't seem Meta oriented? Locust around ER LLAser? SRMs on CN9-D?

Some are built with a logical "stock primary/general secondary" quirk set. Others are ridiculously built along the lines many of the Champions were, to the pet builds of NGNG guys and the Comp crowds.

I have no problem with comp oriented Quirks but they should ALWAYS be secondary quirks, with the intended roles and weapons shining as primary.

The beauty of giving quirks based on TT loadouts is that the TT builds are rarely the competitive builds, so you can afford to give Quirks to the Tier 1 mechs (in some cases). For example the Cataphact 3D will not receive any buffs because it is ranked T1, But is only T1 on a few select builds. Why not throw it a LB10x and UAC5 buff, and medium lasers. Buffing those weapons will have no effect on the Meta builds, but will open other options for the chassis.

I have mentioned the Centurion several times because it is the biggest offender.
The TT centurion does not carry SRMs, however the Kintaro-18 is a stock SRM boat.
Who screwed up so badly that these mechs cannot be assigned to their default roles? And the Kintaro-18 as an LRM5 boat is just a gimmick due to the poor design of the LRM5; an issue that will be addressed in an upcoming patch, which will ultimately render the mech unusable in any role.

The lunacy of the current quirk pass is that PGI is enforcing existing meta builds, which is horrible idea from a game stagnation perspective, and topic deserving its own thread.

[Kjudoon]

All iN, on 29 October 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

At the moment the only metagame I hope for is not being tossed with hamsters and lemmings intp 12 Pug against premades.

I have bad news for you. That is going to be the whole thing. Premades v pugs or maybe those happy lucky few premades on defense. Lone Wolves and small groups are the grist in the mill come CW time. Learn to love it because that's the only game in CW town.

[Tesunie]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 29 October 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

The lunacy of the current quirk pass is that PGI is enforcing existing meta builds, which is horrible idea from a game stagnation perspective, and topic deserving its own thread.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it lunacy, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to "buff the meta builds already on these mechs" when the meta is always changing as they present balance passes on weapons and etc. I mean, as you pointed out, the Kintaro is being buffed for LRMs, but soon LRM5s (the main build for the Kintaro LRM boat design) will be getting a balance pass adding in ghost heat (and other things?) into it.

The current quirk system is going to lead to a quirk system that will need constant adjustment to match the current meta, the intended meta or the meta that is about to happen. Thus, once the LRMs stop being placed on the Kintaro (in this example) because of changes to the system, suddenly the quirks become useless once more and the whole mech quirks need to be relooked at again.

Unless PGI wishes to constantly rematch the quirks to the meta, helping out the mechs actual (not meta/MW:O related) roles would be a far better, more solid benefit to all the mechs, with some (as well) generalized quirks to support other possible builds that aren't related to the stock/intended roles of the mech. (AKA: A scout mech by design should receive scout mech quarks. A support designed mech (such as my 1E Locust) should receive support/scout quirks, not become classified as the meta "skirmisher" role it's been assigned, as that isn't it's built purpose. It's just what people have done within the mech loudout/hardpoints within this game.)

There needs to be a balance to the mechs intended role gaining quirks as well as "the intended/foreseen meta" gaining quirks. How this could be addressed more accurately, I am not certain at this time. There has to be some middle ground on this...

Kjudoon, on 29 October 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I have bad news for you. That is going to be the whole thing. Premades v pugs or maybe those happy lucky few premades on defense. Lone Wolves and small groups are the grist in the mill come CW time. Learn to love it because that's the only game in CW town.

Currently though, Solo and Group queues are separate though...

[Kjudoon]

Quote

Currently though, Solo and Group queues are separate though...

From what I understand, this is the only place it will be so.

[Mothykins]

Tesunie, on 29 October 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

I wouldn't go so far as to call it lunacy, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to "buff the meta builds already on these mechs" when the meta is always changing as they present balance passes on weapons and etc. I mean, as you pointed out, the Kintaro is being buffed for LRMs, but soon LRM5s (the main build for the Kintaro LRM boat design) will be getting a balance pass adding in ghost heat (and other things?) into it.

The current quirk system is going to lead to a quirk system that will need constant adjustment to match the current meta, the intended meta or the meta that is about to happen. Thus, once the LRMs stop being placed on the Kintaro (in this example) because of changes to the system, suddenly the quirks become useless once more and the whole mech quirks need to be relooked at again.

TBH, I think the "Buff the stock, but split the quirks" approach we see for the Hunchback and the Awesome are exactly what we needed for the start of the quirk pass; this is for two reasons.

• When a new player purchases a Mech, lets say, the K2 or the KTO-18. Then he discovers the stock load-out doesn't really get that much benefit from the quirks - For the KTO-18, you see that the mech comes with all these SRMs, but mostly buffs the lone LRM. Right away this raises a flag, because that hunchback, on the other hand, has a buff to the main weapons. The K2 is worse, as the main guns, those PPCs, net a piddly 7.5% range boost from the four quirks to energy weapons. They're not going to see the potential, they're gonna see "Man, this 'mech sucks stock."
  
• Encouraging use of the weapons that come with a 'Mech is just really smart overall. It comes with those guns. It should be good with those guns. If it's built around the gun, it should show it. This is just generally good game design. You don't go "This guy is a mid range fighter!" and then make them start with a sniper rifle.

Edited by Cavale, 29 October 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[UrsusMorologus]

Tesunie, on 29 October 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

Unless PGI wishes to constantly rematch the quirks to the meta, helping out the mechs actual (not meta/MW:O related) roles would be a far better, more solid benefit to all the mechs, with some (as well) generalized quirks to support other possible builds that aren't related to the stock/intended roles of the mech. (AKA: A scout mech by design should receive scout mech quarks. A support designed mech (such as my 1E Locust) should receive support/scout quirks, not become classified as the meta "skirmisher" role it's been assigned, as that isn't it's built purpose. It's just what people have done within the mech loudout/hardpoints within this game.)

Yes exactly this

Even more, sometimes the weapons are irrelevant to the role. An ECM light that spots for targets might use any kind of weapon that will fit, ERPPC LPL 2xMLs whatever, buffing one of those is missing the point of the build entirely, and if you actually want to buff the mech then buffing the role would go much further than buffing the weapon that it doesnt even use. Same is true for squirrel builds, they dont even shoot anything half the time. The Spider 5V that mounts 10+ JJs and rockets into space has a whole different build schema than the 5K. Its true everywhere, just really easy to see with lights since they are caricature builds.

[Alex Warden]

i think there is one reason for the quirk system really (well actually 2 in one) . it´s the easiest way (as always) for them to do something like "sized hardpoints" while still giving the freedom to customize to our likings (at the expence of half the bonus) ...

some of the quirks are really odd though

(now imagine the disaster that would happen to some mechs if PGI actually DID give in to players demands and gave them sized hardpoints... that would f*** some of them up very hard,and probably wouldn´t be that easy to change as some quirks are...)

Edited by Alex Warden, 29 October 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Krivvan]

Tesunie, on 29 October 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

But... I constantly hear how OP LRMs are and stuff...
(LRMs are more situational weapons, and a few on a mech build can be useful. Depends upon how they are used, etc.)

It is more of an issue of how it can be effective, up until a point where it becomes almost entirely ineffective. It works when a match is just all chaos, but when teams are trading with each other LRMs aren't going to do jack when trading against someone with Gauss and Lasers. They're getting back into cover after shooting you long before your LRMs reach them. And any spotter is taking massive constant risks getting one-shotted so they can't actually hold targets.