36 replies to this topic

[UrsusMorologus]

Was studying on medium balance issues some, and have concluded that the main problem with the really bad ones is the slow speed, which is due entirely to the restricted engine cap. If these things could run around at +100 kph they would have much greater survivabilty and utility as strikers. I can understand you wouldnt want the hunchback to do that, but for things like Vindicator it makes no sense to impose a sub-90 kph restriction, they are not good enough to warrant and it makes them suck even more.

So, easiest way to make mediums viable is give them all an engine cap that will let them move over 100kph. No changes to models or map sizes or anything else, just let them run.

I assume there's a reason here. What is it?

[FupDup]

It's arbitrary: Small stock engines generally translate into small customizable engines.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

They pull up the battletech TT rules from the TRO's and inflate from there. That is why some are slower than others.

This is a battletech based game after all.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 30 October 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

They pull up the battletech TT rules from the TRO's and inflate from there. That is why some are slower than others.

This is a battletech based game after all.

True, but some of the limits are silly. Even I admit that.

[Mercules]

UrsusMorologus, on 30 October 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

I assume there's a reason here. What is it?

Engine caps came about because of the very thing you are advocating. There was a 9 SPL Hunchback that could keep up with most lights and rip the back out of most assaults. Awesomes all ran around at 89kph, and such. PGI decided to cap engine sizes based on the stock size of the engine with a formula. This was a balance issue that helped define roles a bit more. Dragons were just undergunned when all the other heavies could drop in huge engines as well.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

If anything, mechs need to be slowed down across the board.

64-81kph is very respectable speed for a medium, with lights generally starting at 97kph and going up to 129kph (in the Locusts' case).

Heavies tend to sit in the 64kph braket while assault range from 48kph to 64kph.

[FupDup]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

If anything, mechs need to be slowed down across the board.

That would end up drastically altering the balance between Clans and IS. One of the IS' core advantages is being able to min-max one's engine, including increasing one's top speed. This is especially vital for lights who tend to explode violently unless packing a big engine.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

64-81kph is very respectable speed for a medium, with lights generally starting at 97kph and going up to 129kph (in the Locusts' case).

64 kph is garbage for a medium. If you want a 64 kph medium, drive a heavy or even an assault, because they are objectively superior at that role due to more armor and firepower at the same speed. A 64 kph medium is a waste of a medium. Hunchbacks can kind of get away with 80-ish kph because their hitboxes aren't XL friendly, but otherwise you want to go at least 90 in a medium. With Mad Cats running around at 89 kph and Stormcrows running at 106, this matters even more today. My own Shadow Hawk and Griffin laser boats go around 105 kph.

97 kph lights are usually quite bad, as evidenced by the Clan lights (the Kit Fox is mostly just saved by ECM). IS lights going that speed are even worse.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Heavies tend to sit in the 64kph braket while assault range from 48kph to 64kph.

Heavies boating Gauss or something can kind of get away with that speed, but otherwise you want to go in the lower 70's at the minimum, preferably upper 70's or lower 80's.

Assaults should always be over 60 kph, especially after the advent of the Dire Whale (which is 53 kph).

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[Green Mamba]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

If anything, mechs need to be slowed down across the board.

64-81kph is very respectable speed for a medium, with lights generally starting at 97kph and going up to 129kph (in the Locusts' case).

Heavies tend to sit in the 64kph braket while assault range from 48kph to 64kph.

So keep the Assaults and Heavies the same speed but reducing the Medium and Lights speeds?...I am sure that will the Medium and Lights ques improve .The Medium and Lights need their speed to even stay alive in the game

[Alexander MacTaggart]

FupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

That would end up drastically altering the balance between Clans and IS.

One of the Clans' advantages historically was that their mechs are faster than equivalent IS ones, yes.

I don't think your objections are big hurdles, they just require a change in mindset.

My Hunchbacks go 64.8 and my Atlas does 48kph and they are perfectly viable.

[EyeOne]

Back in Closed (or maybe open, I don't remember) people started putting XL300s on Commandos. Apparently 200kph really screws up the servers. So then we got engine caps.

[FupDup]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

One of the Clans' advantages historically was that their mechs are faster than equivalent IS ones, yes.

Some of them are still faster, even with opened up engine limits. The Mad Cat is the most egregrious offender at 89 kph, and and Doomcrow is the runner up at 106 (although a few IS mediums can have good builds at that speed). The Warhawk is still faster than most IS assaults other than the Victor.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

I don't think your objections are big hurdles, they just require a change in mindset.

My Hunchbacks go 64.8 and my Atlas does 48kph and they are perfectly viable.

You seem to have a much more lax definition of "viable" than I do.

Your Atlas goes slower than a Dire Wolf (DW is 53.5 kph), so it's inferior in every possible situation. It's also going to have bad agility on an already big mech.

You Hunchback is slower than some assault mechs, including Victors and Warhawks. You don't mind that your little 50 ton mech is completely outgunned, outarmored, AND outran by mechs of drastically higher tonnage?

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2014 - 08:52 AM.

[Mercules]

EyeOne, on 30 October 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Back in Closed (or maybe open, I don't remember) people started putting XL300s on Commandos. Apparently 200kph really screws up the servers. So then we got engine caps.

I did not!... With 2 medium lasers and full armor it was like an XL295 you could put on it.

[Green Mamba]

FupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Some of them are still faster, even with opened up engine limits. The Mad Cat is the most egregrious offender at 89 kph, and and Doomcrow is the runner up at 106 (although a few IS mediums can have good builds at that speed). The Warhawk is still faster than most IS assaults other than the Victor.


You seem to have a much more lax definition of "viable" than I do.

Your Atlas goes slower than a Dire Wolf (DW is 53.5 kph), so it's inferior in every possible situation. It's also going to have bad agility on an already big mech.

You Hunchback is slower than some assault mechs, including Victors and Warhawks. You don't mind that your little 50 ton mech is completely outgunned, outarmored, AND outran by mechs of drastically higher tonnage?

Unless he's an ALT. Account he's only been playing for 13 days...Sooo you know

[DONTOR]

I agree! Remove engne caps for mediums so i can finally XL400 one of them! Probably would be a Wolverine I suppose. Besides the Speed Cult needs more members.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

FupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Your Atlas goes slower than a Dire Wolf (DW is 53.5 kph)

It's actually the same spped, I just don't have Speed Tweak yet.

Quote

You Hunchback is slower than some assault mechs, including Victors and Warhawks. You don't mind that your little 50 ton mech is completely outgunned, outarmored, AND outran by mechs of drastically higher tonnage?

Do I mind? A little. But just because other players go in for speed inflation doesn't mean I have to.

But you missed my point. In a system where assaults couldn't increase their engine size, they would still be assaults. Being ~20kph slower isn't exactly a penalty when you have the most armor and guns on the field.

People up-engine because they can, and have come to expect it be done even though it's not necessary.

Although I would also advocate for twist speed being decouple from engine size in this case, have it simply be set by chassis/variant, so nobody feels 'penalized' for not being able to load a bigger engine.

Green Mamba, on 30 October 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Unless he's an ALT. Account he's only been playing for 13 days...Sooo you know

Yeah, everyone know this game never attracts new players.

[Creovex]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

If anything, mechs need to be slowed down across the board.

64-81kph is very respectable speed for a medium, with lights generally starting at 97kph and going up to 129kph (in the Locusts' case).

Heavies tend to sit in the 64kph braket while assault range from 48kph to 64kph.

I can't tell you the number of threads I have stated this in.... however the same people who argue against it argue that jump jets should allow you to fly across the whole map... "Assaults should move like you are moving a fortress"

[Angel of Annihilation]

It is to retain some semblance of the original flavor of the mech from the standard variants. Many IS medium were designed specifically to keep pace with IS heavies since that was their role so to keep that role, those IS mediums have smaller top engines.

Honestly I like this as it adds diversity to the game.

However the problem with Mediums is that they were never intended to be able to compete with heavy and assault mechs, rather they were cheap alternatives to fielding heavy and assault mechs while adding tactical flexibility through numbers. For example any given battlemech unit could field 3 mediums for the price of one Assault and while none of these mediums was anywhere near as powerful as an assault, 3 of them working together could like kill the assault mech. Also if you need to split your forces between multiple objectives, it is easier to split up 3 mechs than 1 mech hehe.

So from a balancing perspective, at least according to TT and lore, it should take 3 mediums to equal the performance of 1 Assault or 2 heavy mech. Instead, many mediums actually have a good chance of beating a heavy solo and might have a chance at taking out an Assault so mediums have seen a massive power up in MWO.

Also don't get me started on lights. According to lore, they should pretty much crumple and fold against heavies and lights. Honestly they are suppose to be kind of like a Hummer going up against a M1 Abrams when facing an assault yet in game, lets face it, lights are some of the most deadly mechs in game, fighting well above their weight.

[UrsusMorologus]

Compare

Cicadas run at 133 kph, they are able to play a forward aggressive role like no other medium, if a hole opens in the line you go fill it, aggressive posture ftw

Then there is the 89 kph hunchback that has to hide behind hills and buildings in order to contribute, if it gets focused its dead because it cant move and it doesnt have a deep enough HP reservoir to survive

If hunchie could go 100 kph (not even 133) it would be a completely different mech

[FupDup]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

It's actually the same spped, I just don't have Speed Tweak yet.

Get it faster then.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Do I mind? A little. But just because other players go in for speed inflation doesn't mean I have to.

But you missed my point. In a system where assaults couldn't increase their engine size, they would still be assaults. Being ~20kph slower isn't exactly a penalty when you have the most armor and guns on the field.

People up-engine because they can, and have come to expect it be done even though it's not necessary.

I have come to "expect" it because it is in fact necessary for the IS to have it in order to compete against the Clans, and in some cases even compete amongst themselves. Even with it, the Clans still have the edge in many areas...remove IS engine customization and it's going to get a whole lot more skewed.

It also allows for more loadout variety, because let's face it: If every IS mech came with just 1 engine size, there would be very very few good builds for each chassis. Even right now there's already very little loadout variety on most chassis. If you only have an exact amount of tonnage to work with that can't be altered, there's gonna be one optimal way to use that specific amount of tonnage.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Although I would also advocate for twist speed being decouple from engine size in this case, have it simply be set by chassis/variant, so nobody feels 'penalized' for not being able to load a bigger engine.

Having agility be separate from engine size is a valid suggestion.

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Honestly I like this as it adds diversity to the game.

Joke proposal:

1) Remove engine swapping (have an Upgrade menu ption to switch between STD and XL, but rating is locked)
2) Change matchmaker to 3/6/2/1 (more 'realistic' weight class distribution)

See how that plays out.