332 replies to this topic

[5LeafClover]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

If it stays at 360m counter range to ECM, every fricken mech I own will be mounting BAP. Honestly 360m is so OPed it isn't funny.

I agree with this.

Overall, I'm loving the November changes, they look fun and balanced. Genuinely excited to have a reason to take wub and like the idea of a range increase for BAP.

But: increasing the BAP area of effect by nearly 6 times!? BAP will just become compulsory rather than a role based decision. Somewhere around the 250m radius would have been plenty.

[Trumpetteer]

Deathlike, on 30 October 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Also...

There's a serious concern with BAP. While I believe ECM is a serious magic jesus box problem, increasing the range to 360m is effectively the range of the Clan Streak weapon. That is a large radius to counter (just like the ECM cloak except almost double in radius). Having BAP's counter range more than doubled is rather significant, so while it may reduce the effectiveness of ECM, it's even worse counterplay to how you've designed ECM. I can understand the need for a buff, but changing it to 240-270m would probably be more appropriate than an insane buff to 360m.

I'd agree with this, 360m is far too large of a range.

Russ Bullock, on 30 October 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Remember the other things that BAP does - detecting shut down mechs, decrease target info gathering, Increase sensor range on top of the ECM countering

You're forgetting about UAVs, TAG, NARC, it's not like BAP wasn't already an effective to counter ECM. Another extremely short sighted thing was to allow BAP and ECM to be installed together and get all the bonuses. Also, is there going to be any balance to BAP now that you have made it OP against ECM?

As I can see it now, you're making ECM about as effective as the command console.

If you're going to continue with the cancelling ECM at 360 meters, why not make ECM negate the TAG/NARC/Artemis bonuses? (Regardless of if it's within range of BAP or whatever ECM cancelling devices.)

Edited by Trumpetteer, 30 October 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[5LeafClover]

A potential unintended consequence:

AC10 and PPC will have identical speed and pretty much the same working range. Do you risk this exaggerating a pin point meta?

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

360M is still real close on for lurms. If you charge when you see them you will still get under minimum range before the lock settles. Anyways BAP was supposed to notice an ECM system way further out than that, just not punch through it until closer

[Zack Esseth]

So is the ranges posted for the Small laser default range of 135 a typo or is the range getting buffed. Same for the Clan ErSmall, you posted it as 200 but right now its 150.

[Shadow Magnet]

Should the Blackjack Arrow really get an AC/20 quirk? I would have expected LPL, energy heat gen and ballistic range quirks for that one.

Would it be possible to have different quirks for the (C) champion mechs compared to the non (C) variants? Like having AC/2 quirks on the BJ-1 but AC/20 on the BJ-1(C)?

Also, having the yummy AC/20 quirks on MC only hero mechs like YLW and Arrow looks a liiiiittle tiny bit like P2W. Just a little ;-)


Great news & roadmap overall, thumbs up!

Now, if you could give some news on the status of Reward 2.0 evaluation (possible adjustments beyond those mentioned in your post) I would be really, really tempted to buy the Wrath pack.
Oh, and if you would offer a Griffin Mastery Pack, I would instantly buy that too

[Flying Fox 333]

Cheers Russ for the update. I do appreciate the amount of effort your putting into keeping us updated.

One question though, given the counter ECM range extension to BAP. Shouldn't Clan streak's range get a look at too. They are at 360m unlike their IS counter part which is 270m (same as regular SRM's across both factions.) You might end up with a situation where the ECM on a light for instance won't stop clan streak's from hitting them.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

So, as I'm seeing the "November Roadmap" published in October, I have to ask, again, "who are you and what have you done with the old PGI?"

In all seriousness, thanks for the communication and work that goes into keeping the comms channels open. I really appreciate it!

My feedback in italics.

Inner Sphere 'Mech Quirks - Really looking forward to this!

Rewards 2.0 Bug fixes - Good Call

Balance Changes
- LRM damage reduced from 1.1 to 1.0 - Good. While I don't think it will significantly affect the amount of LRMs we see in game, at least they will be a little less effective.
- Inner Sphere AMS ammo - Interesting. AMS was always an "if I can fit it" upgrade (except on Dragons, where the LRM-magnet truck hood makes it pretty much mandatory).
- Significant changes have been made to all of the IS and Clan lasers - I like the changes to the pulse laser, but I'm not sure the C-ML needed a buff.
- PPC and ERPPC - Nice move.
- BAP - Yep. When you compare ECM against any other 2-slot, 1.5 ton equipment combo, it's a complete no-brainer. There is no decision, you take ECM without question. While no RVN-3L pilot will ask, "should I take BAP ro ECM?", it does make BAP more attractive.
New Hero 'Mech's - Nice tease, want more info now, please.

New map Working Title Swamp - Can't come soon enough. Also, once CW goes live, can we get another spawn point (all modes), base (assault), and resource gatherer (conquest) relocation?

Thought process on laser changes.
... extra tonnage was not going to be justifiable ... Yep. The balance between SPL, MPL and ML has always strongly favored ML. I don't know if this will fix it for anyone, but it's a good step forward, particularly with pulse-laser specific quirks coming soon.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 30 October 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Kain Demos]

To the people complaining that the C-ERML did not need a buff have you even noticed how slight it is? 5m range and .10 duration.

When they moved the heat from 5 to 6 I thought they should have at least TRIED 5.5 first and now I can only imagine what would have happened if they reverted it to 5.5 from 6.

Edited by Kain Thul, 31 October 2014 - 08:06 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

StaggerCheck, on 30 October 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

When did Grayson Carlyle upgrade to the Victor? We could be looking at a Victor / Shadow Hawk combo with Lori in the Shadow Hawk.

Yeah, Victor / Shadow Hawk is more likely than Marauder / Shadow Hawk, although we already have a Victor hero mech, so Shadow Hawk / Locust is most likely. And according to Sarna Grayson piloted a Victor at the "end of his career", and he captured the Marauder in 3024 or so, I think.

[Gyrok]

Love the changes...wish we could get erml and cmpl heat down to about 5.5 to make some mechs a bit more viable (looking squarely at you nova).

I also hope you guys tinker with uacs, and the lbx spreads could use a look. Particularly the lbx5, as the pattern is too similar in size to the lbx10.

UACs are only any good if you boat them. Would that we could viably bring a single uac5 and make it a meaningful contributor. Also AC2 need the baby jesus...seriously. They are less worthless than paper weights at this point.

Maybe make the uac2s and uac5s a single projectile weapon? Do the 10 as 2 shells 5 dmg each and 20 as 4 shells?

As much as I hate to say it, I would even be ok with (potentially much) stiffer ghost heat on 5s if it meant 1-3 of them would be viable weapons...instead of having to take 5 or 6 of them for it to matter.

I would also be ok with the regular clan ACs being single projectile if that was decided too.

[DocBach]

Cimarb, on 30 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

While I agree that his tone is extremely childish, he does have a point that ECM needs a big change. If you cannot equip it on every mech, like every other piece of equipment in the game, then it is too powerful.

ECM should work more like it does in tabletop - negating the benefits of advanced targeting equipment like Nicolas stated, see http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ecm - and what we have now is actually a combination of the experimental ECM (Angel ECM) and Stealth Armor like the Null Signature System (http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor, which takes up 12 crit slots and builds ten heat while active, btw). Note that, even then, none of those systems actually blocks missile getting a lock - they just given a penalty to hit, which equates in MWO as a delay on lock time.

I wrote a pretty long piece on the difference of ECM in the lore and MWO. The big difference between the two is the fact that if you can visually see it, you can shoot it without penalty in the board game -- in MWO, you can't effectively target a 'Mech under ECM, which means you can't get locks, so LRM's aren't as effective. Probably the biggest, quickest fix to bring ECM in line with the lore and board game rules would be to just make 'Mechs protected by ECM in the line of sight manually target-able by placing your reticle over them and hitting a key.

Here's the essay, if you want to read it. Warning, it's like 12 pages long or something like that.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

[NocturnalBeast]

Cattra Kell, on 30 October 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Yes. He married Lori.

So, NGNG probably already knows what the new hero mechs would be, so is it Grayson and Lori's mechs? That would be cool, the first Battletech novels I ever read were the Gray Death Legion ones.

[Chaosity]

Paul, you mention BAP range increasing, but not CAP. Since when did the stagnant IS tech outshine clan tech? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks in advance for any clarification you can provide.

[ExAstris]

Very much approve of the vast majority of the changes.

But as usual, a few concerns crop up. I hope my points won't be soured by the tone of previous commentators who gestured (rudely) in a similar direction.


ECM really is at the core of alot of the problems. Increasing BAP's cancellation range is a massive step in the right direction. It will remove ECM from the equation once the main battle is joined, but still have the strategic value of moving a fighting force around without detection, as well as being useful for scouts to avoid getting noticed. But now it won't be preventing brawlers from knowing what subsections to target, or which enemies are hurt mid-battle, or preventing LRMs from being used at all. Good moves in all.

Thus with less ECM impacting the main battle, LRMs become a target of concern since they'll be able to rain more often. That in conjunction with some chassis getting LRM quirks, thats how we arrive at the damage debuff for LRMs.


These moves make sense. But the root of the problem was still ECM, and the solution is still a reduction in the range at which is has its radar deprivation effects.

Why not significantly increase the range at which ECM mechs can be detected by normal sensors instead of hardcapping it at 200m? (or 250 if you have the right module). Why not let BAP's sensor extension also apply to its detection range of ECM? This way every mech can detect ECM mechs at 300-400m (or wherever). Then ECM's other effects can still be used during the battle (nerfing LRM clustering and lock times, slowing infogathering), unless another counter is applied or a BAP user gets a bit closer. This way its still an appropriate force multiplier against LRMs and information flow, but isn't overpowering by utterly denying both and controlling the information flow.

Or, from another angle, why not make BAP's cancelling effect simply that mech's normal detection range with LOS? Instead of cancelling mechs it doesn't know are around, it cancels all the ones it can see. This option is alot more binary than the previous one, but it does mean the stealth and force multiplier effects of ECM can be automatically cancelled by a mech that dedicates some of its loadout to boosted sensor effectiveness, but only while that mech is paying attention to the ECM unit. As soon as it looks away, other friendlies still suffer the confusion.

In either of those cases, the hard benefits given by ECM get softened by lessening that one aspect of ECM, reducing its radar deprivation capability.



In summary: The radar deprivation capability of ECM is what is so powerful, and its the thing that needs to be addressed in any changes made to information warfare. This patch is a huge move in the right direction since it does address this issue.

Personally, I'm a fan of just removing the stealth field entirely and then letting ECM be a force multiplier against LRMs by nerfing lock times and clustering bonuses. Then, if reduced lock-on ranges really are something that adds to the gameplay, implement a new method for achieving that (like stealth armor or modules that are the inverse of the sensor range booster).



addendum: LRMs will obviously have to be considered with any serious change to the flow of information. But there are other concerns about LRMs that are not being addressed that some of the more... fevered... comments were hinting at.

Currently, inner sphere mechs with large launchers are punished for having large launchers. If you have the choice between running a variant of a mech that has a 20 tube launcher and a 10 tube launcher for your LRM20, you'll take the latter every time. The microscopic delay between sub-volleys is a cost orders of magnitude below the clustering benefit you get from firing two sets of 10 missiles instead of one of 20.

For example, the catapults have 20 tube launchers, but taking an LRM20 is almost always a much worse idea than taking a 15. Only when firing at a large, slow target with both the clustering bonuses of artemis and tag stacking will you ever actually land the missiles at the edge of that cluster on target. Against every other target you're just wasting those missiles and punishing yourself with a longer reload time, a vastly heavier launcher, and worse ammo efficiency.

This is also why a huge chunk of LRM boats now are 6x5 mechs. The clustering bonus is maximized with the smallest launcher. So even though you're firing fewer missiles overall, more missiles are actually hitting their targets (both relatively and absolutely against most targets, you're only worse off against assaults).


I would think the best solution here is to normalize missile spread across all the inner sphere launchers (much like clan ones are due to firing in streams instead of packs). Other tweaks can be made to fire rate and heat if needed later on.






But to circle back so that this isn't all negative sounding.

ECM's radar deprivation zone being nerfed is a huge step in the right direction.
Pulse lasers having a more distinct flavor / niche is likable move.
IS AMS ammo buff is much appreciated.
Quirk system is a huge move in the right direction.

With ECM finally being addressed instead of being the Elephant in the Room, I may finally be able to return to financially contributing to MWO after my self-imposed restriction from doing so upon the introduction of ECM until it was reasonably dealth with.

[SgtMagor]

my Boar2Death, will probably like the return of his pulse lasers, first thing I did when the mech was released was put regular med lasers on it. wub a dub dub. Tbolt champ sounds interesting. A lot of IS mechs waiting to get back in the fight, Cheers!

[Navid A1]

Chaosity, on 30 October 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Paul, you mention BAP range increasing, but not CAP. Since when did the stagnant IS tech outshine clan tech? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks in advance for any clarification you can provide.

for you:

Russ Bullock, on 30 October 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

I thought it was a good idea.

On the IS side you spend 1.5 tons for ECM and look at the advantage you get for that 1.5 tons. BAP is also 1.5 tons but the benefit is not near as great. Now you have more reason to commit 1.5 tons to BAP on a mech you intend to hunt ECM lights with.

Also means if you get within Medium laser range you can negate rather than being practically on top of that ECM mech.

Yes we intend the change for both IS and Clan.

Btw proper feedback thread is up now

[UnknownSeeker]

Any news Clan quirk pass?

[TexAce]

Cool changes Russ, looking forward to it! I love LPLs!

[Paul Inouye]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 30 October 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

How about some pics of the swamp map. Miss the videos you guys used to do.

I wasn't here...

Spoiler