421 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

I agree.

I get that this is a Battle Tech game, and I think the devs should strive to give clear nods to lore and traditional items whenever it makes sense.



Shoehorning some of those clearly bad stock loadouts onto mechs is not the answer however, I'd much rather the devs objectively looked at each individual mech and said "what could this mech be good at?" and then dole out quirks based on something that would make the mech more effective.



Because ultimately, that's why a lot of mechs didn't see play - they weren't effective at any particular thing.

[Chrithu]

Well the single ballistic quirk it has really isn't that meaningful anyways. 10% increased firerate isn't all that much. Nowhere near the up to 25% in firerate AND velocity that other mechs get as ballistic buff.

Butr my personal problem is not the ballistic quirk on the K2. It's more about the ML quirks. Like I said in the other thread it buffs all those skirmish/brawl fun builds that use big ballistics + any number of MLs. And even with that buff there are mechs like the cataphract that are better at it still simply because of their geometry.

Now if the catapult got it's pre-nerf max-torso-twist back, then we could talk about it. But the Catapult as it is right now simply has too much of front torso surface to be as good at medium to close range encounters as a cataphract or a quickdraw.

They two ML quirks should simply be changed to a PPC velocity and a PPC cooldown buff, while maintaining it's other 3 current buffs.

Edit:

And as far a shoehorning stock loadouts unto mechs goes: I have played the K2 since closed beta. It has allways been a long range support mech until it got hit by almost each anti-meta nerf that happened targeted at unoping other mechs. PPC nerfs, Gauss nerf being the most prominent of them. Playing a K2 as a PPC or Gauss sniper was perfectly viable before those nerfs. ANd my hope was that with the quirks the K2 could become viable again in that role. But as it stands it will now be shoehorned into a role that even with the quirks is still done A LOT better by other mechs.

Edited by Jason Parker, 31 October 2014 - 05:19 AM.

[Ultimax]

Jason Parker, on 31 October 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Well the single ballistic quirk it has really isn't that meaningful anyways. 10% increased firerate isn't all that much. Nowhere near the up to 25% in firerate AND velocity that other mechs get as ballistic buff.

10% on it's own is nothing to write home about, but keep in mind that stacks with the T5 module, and fast fire and is applicable to all ballistics whether you want to run 10s, 20s, Gauss, UAC 5s, etc.

[SpeedingBus]

Ultimatum X, on 31 October 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

10% on it's own is nothing to write home about, but keep in mind that stacks with the T5 module, and fast fire and is applicable to all ballistics whether you want to run 10s, 20s, Gauss, UAC 5s, etc.

Yeah but if you own a Jagger mech its going to have a huge advantage over boating ballistics than K2... they should give K2 its ppc quirks and make it more unique.

[Ultimax]

SpeedingBus, on 31 October 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Yeah but if you own a Jagger mech its going to have a huge advantage over boating ballistics than K2... they should give K2 its ppc quirks and make it more unique.

And if you own catapults this is the only way you can run ballistics.

If you're argument is with Jagers, the firebrand got PPC quirks, so the K2 wouldn't be unique.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 31 October 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[RussianWolf]

HEre is my arguement.

If the Comp Players are using it in a certain build, that build needs no buffs.

The only time I see the K2 in comp play, it is a dual 20 or dual gauss build. So the ballistics don't need a buff on it.

The PPC buff would be nice since I think I may be the only one running that build on the K2 as it was designed to be used.

"The Jester can do it better", nope, Jester should get LL/ERLL buffs as it was designed to be.

To me this isn't about buffing the meta, its about changing the meta. Increase the speed of the PPC to its old rate for the K2, and reduce the heat (same as the Awesomes) and suddenly you'll see K2s throwing lightening from across the map as Zeus intended.

[SpeedingBus]

Ultimatum X, on 31 October 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

And if you own catapults this is the only way you can run ballistics.

If you're argument is with Jagers, the firebrand got PPC quirks, so the K2 wouldn't be unique.

You have to pay money for Firebrand and I feel like that's why the K2 didn't get PPC quirks to make people buy Firebrand. Also when you look at K2 visually it says I am carrying PPCs in my arms!!

[Alistair Winter]

Odwalla, on 30 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I've been seeing a lot of talk about the K2 and complaints that it should have PPC quirks instead of the ballistic quirks. These complaints are primarily rooted in nostalgia and lore. So I wanted to make an argument AGAINST the PPC quirks so that PGI doesn't think that is actually what everyone wants and let me know if you agree or disagree.

First of all, I think this needs to be said: Both camps can be satisfied. Let's not make this a false dichotomy.

Odwalla, on 30 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

What Makes the K2 Unique
Ballistics. It's the ONLY catapult that has them and it's why someone would take this variant over any of the other catapults. Giving it ballistic quirks literally makes it better in 100% of viable builds it can use. Giving it PPC quirks is a net 0 benefit since you can't use both PPCs and heavy ballistics effectively on the K2.

That's like saying the CN9-AH is unique due to its lack of energy weapons. It's true, but it's misleading. The CN9-AH is special because it can carry an AC20. That is its defining feature. It's one of two Centurions with that ability. The CPLT-K2 is one of two catapults that can carry big energy weapons above its cockpit for sniping.

The ballistics are not the only important thing. If the Jester has laser benefits and the K2 has PPC benefits, the CPLT-K2 will still be unique.

Odwalla, on 30 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

But, What About Stock Builds?
I personally don't have any attachment to BT lore so for me, it's all about this game being balanced and having as many mechs VIABLE as possible.
If they ended up giving all the Griffins LRM quirks because that is their lore build, I would rage pretty hard. Griffins are THE IS SRM platform and the only reason it's viable in comp. You shouldn't want PGI to buff bad builds because of lore.
If you LOVE stock builds and have an attachment to them. Keep in mind that these quirks don't STOP you from using those builds. Literally nothing changes about them. They continue being the builds you love and currently use. But making non-optimal builds slightly better is NOT the purpose of the new quirk system.

I disagree. The AWS-8Q and AWS-9M are the best examples, but not the only ones. Those mechs used to work better as laser boats than PPC boats, untill the quirks came along. Stock builds were non-optimal. And you'll see several mechs with quirks that make non-optimal builds (e.g. AC2 on a Dragon) viable again.

Furthermore, it's not true that literally nothing changes due to the quirks. Because the quirks are a buff for certain builds. If you choose an alternative, you are effectively missing out on bonuses. By comparison, your mech will be worse than builds that get the quirk bonus. The dual PPC build on K2 was never a good build for this game, but now it's even worse than before, because the new quirks are aimed at a completely different build (medlas + AC10). If you're running a stock mech build, you're missing out on the bonus every other mech is getting. The CPLT-C1 is getting an LRM15 quirk, for example. Which was the most common weapon on the CPLT-C1 anyway. The YLW is getting an AC20 quirk. The CTF-2X is getting an AC20 quirk. Those are all weapons that were pretty much standard to begin with.

Odwalla, on 30 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

If they decided to revert the quirks and give it PPC instead of ballistics, that would be a damn shame and a total waste of quirks that are designed to make tower tier IS mechs more viable to higher tier IS mechs.
If you love the K2 and want it to be viable, you should support it getting ballistic quirks.

A K2 with dual gauss or AC10+medlas is not a K2, in the same way that a YLW with MGs is not a YLW, an AWS-8Q boating MPLs is not an AWS-8Q, and a Raven 4X carrying an AC20 is not an AC20.

Of course, people are free to use whatever build they want. But Catapult pilots who love the Catapult would be disappointed to see the CPLT-C1 turned into a laser boat with streaks. Atlas lovers would be disappointed to see the Atlas reduced to an LRM boat with TAG instead of lasers. Trebuchet lovers would be disappointed to see the Treb brought back down to a PPC poptart, as was its primary role in 2013, instead of the rapid missile boat it was intended to be.


TL;DR: I disagree with almost everything you said. People seem to think that there's only one way to make things viable. You forget the whole arsenal of tools that PGI can use to improve mechs. The AWS-8Q could be a Tier 1 mech if PGI just modified its various stats accordingly. Give it a 300% PPC cooldown bonus and 500% heat reduction and see what happens. It's a ridiculous example, but it's just illustrating that PGI has the freedom to do anything.

If the PPC buff for the K2 is significant enough, it will be a viable build. I mean, the Huginn now has a +100 meter SRM4 range bonus if you combine quirks and weapon modules. That's insane! It's more than 30% extra range. But it's necessary, because the Huginn is such a crappy mech. What if the K2 had 30% increased PPC projectile speed? Or cooldown? Or heat reduction?

#YESWECAN

SpeedingBus, on 31 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

You have to pay money for Firebrand and I feel like that's why the K2 didn't get PPC quirks to make people buy Firebrand. Also when you look at K2 visually it says I am carrying PPCs in my arms!!

Another great point. The whole model is ridiculous when people are stripping those huge arms of armour and keeping either medium lasers or NO WEAPONS AT ALL in them. And those ears get blown off 10 seconds into the match.

How does that make sense on any level?

Edited by Alistair Winter, 31 October 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[The Boz]

Speaking of which, I haven't seen a NARC speed or NARC/TAG range quirk, but it would fit mechanically and thematically on many mechs. Why is that?

[SpiralFace]

Here is my counter point to this argument.

Competitive players will always adapt and move on to what is viable NO MATTER WHAT THAT IS.

The complaints from the competitive community regarding this topic has been odd to me. Mostly because they seem intent on keeping a configuration that for the most part, they are already moving away from. (Especially come Tuesday once the Timberwolf is released and Gauss ER PPC combo for it is back with it.) Which is kinda the point.

With the metta constantly shifting, what makes a mech "viable" to them shifts with it. There is zero reason from a design standpoint to shoehorn in the designs of mechs to what some people conciser "viable" for the single slice of time that the mech is around in.

Builds change, Playstyles change, and more often then not, what is considered "viable" will ALWAYS change based on the rules that are presented.

The Awesomes once upon a time where a competitive build as Med pulse laser boats back in Closed Beta. Do we abandon PPC quirks on the Awesome in favor of pulse lasers because once upon a time those where viable as well?

No. Because that build fell out of favor when more, better mechs where released, and people have moved and not looked back since then so why bother trying to preserve a mech that ultimately none of them are "really" attached to anyways.


Fiction DOES matter.

At the end of the day, this is a licensed product. Proudly "A Battletech Game." And a great many people are HERE because this is a licensed product that they are attached to. (I'm willing to wager that there are more people here attached to the fiction then here to play the game competitively.)

People are attached to the idea of the PPCs on the K2 for the same reason that fans would be upset if a Starwars arena fighting game had Storm troopers waiving blue and purple light-sabers around as the "most competitive set up." And while a non-starwars fan playing the game competitively can always come up with the EXACT same arguments that you just made defending the right to equip blue light-sabers on storm troopers to keep them competitively viable, Its not going to matter for a good amount of the people playing the game. So why should this property be any different?

At the end of the day, PGI is always going to have to struggle with balancing a unique game over something attached to the fiction, but at the end of the day, those that are here because people are / where fans of the BT universe itself greatly outnumber those playing the game competitively. The outrage and subsequent voting on the clan icons is a perfect example of it.

There are plenty of mechs that the hardcore fans of BT could care less about. You aren't going to see much attachment to a mech like the Quickdraws and the quirks they have.

But the K2 is one of the most defining mechs in the series. Its one of the few mechs that previous MW games that actually went out of their way to model and include in the game. (something no other mechs can hold a candle to.)

Its one of the ONLY variant IS mechs that has its own miniature model:



And this was a convention exclusive that people went NUTS over.

And even here in the arguments about "hardpoint sizes" for weapons, this mech is ALWAYS brought up as the prime example for what others see as the short comings of the current hardpoint systems we have. To take a MG slot and turn it into AC 20s.

I'm not arguing that we NEED to have all stock mechs be only as restrictive as their stock loadouts. (Thats not the point.) But when it comes to people playing with the mechs they love, they want to play the mechs HOW they where designed to be played in the fiction. Not what some arbitrary rules presents itself with.

I recognize that many in the comp scene are not attached to the fiction and that's fine. But recognize that you are playing a licensed game where there is a LARGE fan base that does not agree with that notion.

Mechs getting quirks.

Yeah, they are getting quirks to bring them up and be "more"competitive. But that doesn't mean that everything WILL be competitive. I highly doubt that even with the awesome changes you are going to be seeing many comp drops use them in favor of the now re-newed Gauss PPC Dragon Slayer.

And dual PPC might be terrible on the design now, but quirks are specifically meant to help these builds. And for a good majority of the mechs out there, this has all revolved and supported more of the STOCK builds. So why get upset that people are only asking for the same treatment provided to some people's favorite catapult variant from doing exactly what the Awesome got? Because I don't see many comp players complaining about the Awesomes PPC buffs over a return of the "ccompetitive Medium Pulse laser set up from closed beta.

There are already alternatives out there.

Looking at the Jagers alone:

+7.5 on cooldown,
+ 7.5 on velocity
+ 10 on range

a 2.5% cooldown boost on a snub nose frame is the only difference. Its not like you are loosing a dual gauss or 20 build in any ways.

And while the Thunderbot has a few quirks for PPC's that might use them better given how you can bunch them up in the torso, that not to say that people WANT to see the Catapult have its PPC option as a viable option. (As the jester doesn't have them as you pointed out.)

And also, NONE of this changes its usefulness if they where to remove the ballistic quirk. Its still a powerful weapon combo on a slimmer torso that is XL friendly with shield nub arms.

Whenever I hear things like this, it comes off more as people wanting the Cat to retain its "top dog" spot over having something as a compelling contender.

The Jagermechs are already there to provide this build, with its own perks and drawbacks to keep a viable 65 ton big ballistic mech. The quirks are not eliminating your ability to take balistics on a slimmer frame, you just have to weigh its better, slimmer frame to the now offensive perks fo the Jagers.

Counter Conclusion

When a mech is as well loved as the K2 to those that could honestly care less about the comp scene and what you guys do in it, many people want to see their favorate builds from the original game actually hold their own in THIS game.

- There are already alternative mechs that can do the same builds out there that have quirks.

- The current heavy ballistic set up on the K2 still has its perks given the slimmer, XL friendly, and torso protected frame set up without any perks needed.

- Comp players will gravitate towards whatever is viable under the current ruleset no matter what it is. So what is viable today could be dropped like a sac of potato's tomorrow if there is a better option. (Pulse laser Awesome.) So why chase something that only the comp scene want when they are more then willing to drop it the second that something better comes along?

- The quirk system is THERE to boost the viability of builds. If the K2 is remembered as being a premier PPC platform in the fiction (In absence of the Warhammer and the Marauder,) then it stands to reason that they can be boosted up through the quirk system in the exact same way that many other of the "classic" designs like the Awesome are.

- If most of the other mechs like the cataphracts, Awesomes, etc, are being augmented based primarily on their stock loadouts, what makes the K2 so different besides the push of the players in the comp scene who want to see it be a primarilly ballistic platform off of MACHINE GUN slots.

From where I stand, I think its more of a win for the people who WANT to see it be a PPC platform as it had been in the fiction. They want to see their favorite mech perform in a way that translates well into this game.

The comp scene will always adapt and find the mechs that work best for them irregardless of what the rules are. So why placate to a group that is more then willing to drop the mech whole sale the second something better comes along then the group that wants their favorite mech to preform in the way its designed to preform?

Edited by SpiralFace, 31 October 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Jetfire]

The AC40 and Dual Gauss K2's were a response to the futulity at using PPC's and are already viable. The PPC's are the portion of the mech that need the boost most.

[The Boz]

Isn't that the Catapult II?

[Ultimax]

RussianWolf, on 31 October 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

If the Comp Players are using it in a certain build, that build needs no buffs.

"Ballistics" isn't a build.

2x AC 20 is a build.
2x Gauss is a build.
2x AC 10 is a build.

These are all different builds, and not all of those are just "comp player" builds.

RussianWolf, on 31 October 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

The PPC buff would be nice since I think I may be the only one running that build on the K2 as it was designed to be used.

"The Jester can do it better", nope, Jester should get LL/ERLL buffs as it was designed to be.

The Jester did get LLAS buffs.

SpeedingBus, on 31 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

You have to pay money for Firebrand and I feel like that's why the K2 didn't get PPC quirks to make people buy Firebrand. Also when you look at K2 visually it says I am carrying PPCs in my arms!!

People don't buy Firebrands to run PPCs, people generally don't play Jagers to run PPCs.

Most people buy Firebrands to run the same build they run on their other Jagers but with a CBill bonus.

[DarthPeanut]

I completely agree with the OP. Not a surprise if you have seen my posts in the previous 2 threads about this.

Ballistics on the K2 are what makes it unique to every other catapult and they are utilized in all the most effective loadouts of the K2 from solo play on up. Couple AC's of your liking and 4 mediums is downright more effective than a pair of PPC and mediums. Which the Jester can do PPC and mediums already better btw as said above.

Ultimately you are trying to destroy the enemy mechs no matter what form you play the game in. Why quirk a very mediocre PPC K2 build when there is clearly a better option. So you can have just a slightly less mediocre build? Seems silly to me.

Let's say they quirk PPC on the K2 and now it is iconically lore correct with the appropriate tier 3 PPC buffs. The question then would be is it good and does it really helps the K2 be more competitive (at any level) in this game rather than just lore correct? Lets be honest, not really. They cannot quirk the PPC enough to make it a better build than the ballistic builds short of going to total extremes. PPCs just cannot DPS enough to compare to even other IS, much less clan.

Lore is great for general form of this game but this is MWO and should not just follow lore for the sake of nostalgia. End of the day we need to be able to drop in mechs that can perform against the enemy. Would be a shame to see the K2 reduced to a placeholder mech as I really do like it.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 31 October 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[VanillaG]

Odwalla, on 31 October 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

A lot of competitive teams prefer the catapult over the Jagermech for heavy ballistics because it runs XLs much safer. In fact, our recent match against GK, SJR took AC40 K2s.

Shopping around for the best hitboxes is always going to be an issue in a FPS type of game but if you want to run a dual heavy ballistic mech you should be using the Jagermech. If the comp teams think the K2 without any ballistic quirks is still better then it does not need any quirks. The quirks should be used to enforce the unique role of a variant not make the same build better across more variants.

[DarthPeanut]

ETA: I see people keep throwing comp at the OP because he used an example of an optimized build they use in comp (relative to the Jager alternative). Normal play the best build for the K2 is not using PPC either though. It is ACs with 4 mediums. Why quirk the sub optimal build to that vs give those same tier quirks to the better build to actually improve its viability in ALL the game play.

Wanna take PPC to be lore correct, more power to you... I think they have some stock build drops for that kind of thing.

VanillaG, on 31 October 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Shopping around for the best hitboxes is always going to be an issue in a FPS type of game but if you want to run a dual heavy ballistic mech you should be using the Jagermech. If the comp teams think the K2 without any ballistic quirks is still better then it does not need any quirks. The quirks should be used to enforce the unique role of a variant not make the same build better across more variants.

The K2 does the XL ballistic energy combination better than the Jager for the reason you stated... better hitboxes. Comp, solo, group, etc... it does not matter what the application.

None the less I would propose that there certainly are better DPS, heat, and projectile speed builds you can do on the Jager if you are going to XL. Builds the K2 cannot do.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 31 October 2014 - 07:18 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

For the record, my thread about the lack of K2 PPC quirk wasn’t a complaint thread, just a curiosity one if anyone knew why.

[VanillaG]

DarthPeanut, on 31 October 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

The K2 does the XL ballistic energy combination better than the Jager for the reason you stated... better hitboxes. Comp, solo, group, etc... it does not matter what the application.

Which is why it should not be quirk buffed because the better hitboxes are "quirks" enough for that type of build. Swapping the medium laser buffs to PPC buffs that also indirectly buff lasers in general still buffs the comp build, just not as much.

[Carl Avery]

SpiralFace, on 31 October 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

Whenever I hear things like this, it comes off more as people wanting the Cat to retain its "top dog" spot over having something as a compelling contender.

Have you played the game recently? The Catapult has not been "top dog," or anything close to it, in a year or more. It isn't even top dog of the 65-tonners; it's worse than even the Jagermech, and none of the group tournaments have been won by teams sporting Jagermechs (much less Catapults) in a very long time.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Did someone mention Jaegermech, oh they did. Then I think we are done here.

Forrest Gump said it best. Competitive is as competitive does. Or was it competitive is like a box of mechs. They both apply equally well. The Catapult K2 is a unique and well loved chassis from Battletech lore, while the competitive scene is a fickle woman who can't make up her mind. Don't ruin the K2 while chasing a cheating tart.