421 replies to this topic

[Odwalla]

I've been seeing a lot of talk about the K2 and complaints that it should have PPC quirks instead of the ballistic quirks. These complaints are primarily rooted in nostalgia and lore. So I wanted to make an argument AGAINST the PPC quirks so that PGI doesn't think that is actually what everyone wants and let me know if you agree or disagree.

Why are IS mechs getting quirks?

Mechs are currently organized in tiers that represent their viability in game when compared to one another. It's also meant to emphasize uniqueness among chassis variants and give you a reason to take one variant over another.

What Makes the K2 Unique

Ballistics. It's the ONLY catapult that has them and it's why someone would take this variant over any of the other catapults. Giving it ballistic quirks literally makes it better in 100% of viable builds it can use. Giving it PPC quirks is a net 0 benefit since you can't use both PPCs and heavy ballistics effectively on the K2.

But, What About Stock Builds?

I personally don't have any attachment to BT lore so for me, it's all about this game being balanced and having as many mechs VIABLE as possible.

If they ended up giving all the Griffins LRM quirks because that is their lore build, I would rage pretty hard. Griffins are THE IS SRM platform and the only reason it's viable in comp. You shouldn't want PGI to buff bad builds because of lore.

If you LOVE stock builds and have an attachment to them. Keep in mind that these quirks don't STOP you from using those builds. Literally nothing changes about them. They continue being the builds you love and currently use. But making non-optimal builds slightly better is NOT the purpose of the new quirk system.

Conclusion

I can understand wanting PPC quirks on the Jester. That thing is a great energy platform and it has JJs. If you're going to run PPCs on a catapult, you're WAY better off doing it on the Jester.

If they decided to revert the quirks and give it PPC instead of ballistics, that would be a damn shame and a total waste of quirks that are designed to make tower tier IS mechs more viable to higher tier IS mechs.

If you love the K2 and want it to be viable, you should support it getting ballistic quirks.


Edit: wtf, formatting

Edited by Odwalla, 30 October 2014 - 11:50 PM.

[The Boz]

Jagermech.

[Mothykins]

I don't think anyone wants the ballistics to go away, they're just slightly miffed that it has med las centric quirks as it's main focus.


Also, two ppc and a gauss is better than just dual big ballistics. Or will be, after the buffs.

So, yeah. Should have gotten ppc quirks.

[Odwalla]

The Boz, on 30 October 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Jagermech.

The quirks are meant to give you a reason to take one variant over another, not one chassis over the other so comparing two different chassis doesn't make sense in the context of quirks.

But if you think that's a good argument, there are reasons to take both. A lot of competitive teams prefer the catapult over the Jagermech for heavy ballistics because it runs XLs much safer. In fact, our recent match against GK, SJR took AC40 K2s.

[Mycrus]

Odwalla, on 31 October 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

The quirks are meant to give you a reason to take one variant over another, not one chassis over the other so comparing two different chassis doesn't make sense in the context of quirks.

But if you think that's a good argument, there are reasons to take both. A lot of competitive teams prefer the catapult over the Jagermech for heavy ballistics because it runs XLs much safer. In fact, our recent match against GK, SJR took AC40 K2s.

i have no attachment with BT lore... i have an attachment to high mounted energy hardpoints though which makes the K2 unique for catapult variants

[Odwalla]

Cavale, on 30 October 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

I don't think anyone wants the ballistics to go away, they're just slightly miffed that it has med las centric quirks as it's main focus.


Also, two ppc and a gauss is better than just dual big ballistics. Or will be, after the buffs.

So, yeah. Should have gotten ppc quirks.

Well, most heavy ballistic builds are combined with MLas so those quirks are actually great for what that mech is currently being used for. It also covers a pretty wide range of viable builds.

Mycrus, on 31 October 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

i have no attachment with BT lore... i have an attachment to high mounted energy hardpoints though which makes the K2 unique for catapult variants

Nope. Jester has those same high mounted hardpoints + 2 more energy and JJs. It does it better. If any Catapult should get PPC quirks, it's the Jester.

Edited by Odwalla, 31 October 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[Mycrus]

Odwalla, on 31 October 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

Well, most heavy ballistic builds are combined with MLas so those quirks are actually great for what that mech is currently being used for. It also covers a pretty wide range of viable builds.



Nope. Jester has those same high mounted hardpoints + 2 more energy and JJs. It does it better. If any Catapult should get PPC quirks, it's the Jester.

Heroes™

[Odwalla]

Mycrus, on 31 October 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

Heroes™

Yeah, but that's an entirely different argument/subject. Competitive players have been complaining for A LONG TIME about hero mechs being the best at specific things and that makes them pay to win. Dragon Slayer, Ember are two prime examples of that.

[Mothykins]

Odwalla, on 31 October 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

The quirks are meant to give you a reason to take one variant over another, not one chassis over the other so comparing two different chassis doesn't make sense in the context of quirks.

But if you think that's a good argument, there are reasons to take both. A lot of competitive teams prefer the catapult over the Jagermech for heavy ballistics because it runs XLs much safer. In fact, our recent match against GK, SJR took AC40 K2s.

Ah. Comp Player. so then, even with the torso buff, the Jager will still be less survivable?

Also, does the high mount weapon not lend to advantages, just from a pure layout perspective?

See, thing is, it could get those ppc buffs and still keep the exact same ballistic buff.

But instead it gets medium laser buffs, the duration one not even remotely helping the ppc. If it was heat, maybe, sure. Fine.


Also, comp players are not the end all be all. There needs to be a balance between you, and the fluff that the bt fans want. It would be wise to remember that.

[Elizander]

Cavale, on 30 October 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

I don't think anyone wants the ballistics to go away, they're just slightly miffed that it has med las centric quirks as it's main focus.


Also, two ppc and a gauss is better than just dual big ballistics. Or will be, after the buffs.

So, yeah. Should have gotten ppc quirks.

The K2 is more known for dual ballistics and after you plug those in there usually isn't much room for anything else other than Medium Lasers.

[Odwalla]

Cavale, on 31 October 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

Ah. Comp Player. so then, even with the torso buff, the Jager will still be less survivable?

Also, does the high mount weapon not lend to advantages, just from a pure layout perspective?

See, thing is, it could get those ppc buffs and still keep the exact same ballistic buff.

But instead it gets medium laser buffs, the duration one not even remotely helping the ppc. If it was heat, maybe, sure. Fine.


Also, comp players are not the end all be all. There needs to be a balance between you, and the fluff that the bt fans want. It would be wise to remember that.

Yeah, but that's not the intent of the new quirk system. Like I said in my OP. I also specifically addressed stock builds.

The only reason I bring up competitive play is because that is where mechs are being used at their max efficiency. If a specific mech or variant is never used in comp, that's a tell-tale sign that it's not viable and needs some love. And viability is how these mechs are organized in tiers to begin with.

So to use the Griffin example. The only reason it's in its current tier is because of SRMs. If you gave it LRM quirks, it literally would not be improved in that tier list.

Edited by Odwalla, 31 October 2014 - 12:16 AM.

[Alex Warden Wolf]

the cat k2 is GREAT (well WAS great a while back) in an upgraded stock build (means DHS and ERPPC) , and i just think PGI could have encouraged to use it... plus what makes it unique over the other cats, well, someone said it already: the above-head-hardpoints, which are missle hp on the other variants...

plus the jägermech is 10 times better in balistics than the k2, thats why you barely see any k2s anymore...

but i gotta say, the K2 is not the only one - neither the worst - of mis-quirked mechs imho... but thats another topic for another thread...

Edited by Alex Warden Wolf, 31 October 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[Telmasa]

Odwalla, on 30 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I personally don't have any attachment to BT lore so for me, it's all about this game being balanced and having as many mechs VIABLE as possible.

By your own logic, then, the K2 shouldn't be able to mount anything larger than AC/2s (maybe AC/5s) in the ballistic slots, seeing as it carrying dual AC/20s or Gauss Rifles in side torsos that almost never get damaged is definitely not balanced - and it renders Jagermechs unviable by comparison. (No need for armor in the arms = more tonnage = can mount more ammo, more back-up lasers, bigger engine, etc., not to mention being a far less vulnerable platform for XL engines than the jagers...)

Edited by Telmasa, 31 October 2014 - 02:15 AM.

[Kushko]

Awesome type PPC love on the K2 would make so much more sense that its shocking that we got the medium laser&ballistic quirks instead.

In my opinion heat gen, cooldown and projectile speed PPC quirks would make K2 a far more enjoyable mech than the current medium laser+2 AC10/UAC5 "meta" that the planned quirk appears to go for. It would also reflect the stock build, the overall design of the mech and lore. I understand the OP likes his ballistics, but as some have already said there are other mechs that fit that role/lore better.

K2 quirks are horribly mismatched and i really hope they do something about it before nov. 4th.

Edited by Kushko, 31 October 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[Mycrus]

Odwalla, on 31 October 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Yeah, but that's an entirely different argument/subject. Competitive players have been complaining for A LONG TIME about hero mechs being the best at specific things and that makes them pay to win. Dragon Slayer, Ember are two prime examples of that.

Pretty Baby™

[EvilCow]

Everything the K2 does a Jaeger can do better except when PPCs are involved, the Jaeger has better hardpoints and mounted even higher.

The K2 should receive PPC bonuses.

[Triordinant]

Odwalla, on 31 October 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Yeah, but that's an entirely different argument/subject. Competitive players have been complaining for A LONG TIME about hero mechs being the best at specific things and that makes them pay to win. Dragon Slayer, Ember are two prime examples of that.

With its PPC quirks, the Firebrand will join the P2W club.

[Joe Mallad]

Even tho the K2 isn't getting direct PPC/ERPPC quirks. It is still getting an Range quirk of 7.5% to all Energy weapons. Which means anyone who does run it with the PPCs/ERPPCs will still benefit from a range increase. Now, add the modules for range of the PPC weapons on top of this and you could have a reach out and touch you mech.

Take that extended range on ERPPCs and that makes them deadly, even against other non quirked ERPPC builds.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Ill translate the OP:

"GIVE ME MY IWIN BUTTON I DONT SKILL GOOD"!

[Joseph Mallan]

Cavale, on 30 October 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

I don't think anyone wants the ballistics to go away, they're just slightly miffed that it has med las centric quirks as it's main focus.


Also, two ppc and a gauss is better than just dual big ballistics. Or will be, after the buffs.

So, yeah. Should have gotten ppc quirks.

Specifically because it is a Kurita built Mech. And that House just LOVES PPCs