281 replies to this topic

[Omigir]

Wow, i was supprised to see my name so many times in the first post.

That asside, I think cheese mechs dont promote a 'few optimal variants.' there will be to much encuragment for rolls to really do that not to mention people, like me, who like to try and break molds or have a favorate mech that they like to do difrent things in.

So, i would like to sugest instead of MW4, MW3 mechlab.

Either way, CHEESE IS CANON. customizing battlmechs is in the TT, and it is ballanced. and there has never been a single mech that I have gotten into and not changed. Even the puma with dual ppc's wasnt the right fit.

[Havoc2]

Dredger, on 16 December 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

I enjoyed the Mechlab of MW4 and could spend hours tweaking a particular variant to perfection. It worked brilliantly for the SP Campaign.

Unfortunately, that system fell apart in multiplayer. Look at the free release of MW4 on MekTek.net and try a few matches if you haven't yet. Almost every match is Assault class bruisers loaded up with nothing but Gauss cannons, RACs, LBACs, PPCs, or Insta-lock Rockets. Putting detailed weapon loadout options directly into the hands of players will result in something similar once players figure out the physics.

Since this is going to be a MMO, I'd be much more in favor of an option that limits players to an 'A', 'B', or 'C' variant loadout for each mech. (e.g. 'A' = close-range, 'C' = long-range, and 'B' = mix or special operations package.) That way there is still variety to be had, but it would be harder to throw off the balance.

2 c-bill's worth,

IMO MekTek is a ****-poor example of a MultiPlayer add-on.

MW4 was much more fun when it was restricted to the weapons that were included with the game and not the myriad of add-ons that MekTek added.

When using MW4 as an example of a MechLab, please do not include the MekTek add-on. That was NOT MW4, it's MekTek.

Also, people seem to be forgetting that the devs have stated that their intentions are to put emphasis on team-work and make every 'Mech class fill a role so that the matches don't become He With The Most Assault 'Mechs Wins.
Having each class fill a role would (should) negate any "advantage" that an open MechLab would grant.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Either way, CHEESE IS CANON. customizing battlmechs is in the TT, and it is ballanced. and there has never been a single mech that I have gotten into and not changed. Even the puma with dual ppc's wasnt the right fit.

The bare bones customization rules most players see in the TT deal with making a new design from scratch. Its what possible. There are additional rules for modifying an existing design that represent whats really practical.

So customization is cannon, but not in the way that most MW players think it is.

[Omigir]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

The bare bones customization rules most players see in the TT deal with making a new design from scratch. Its what possible. There are additional rules for modifying an existing design that represent whats really practical. So customization is cannon, but not in the way that most MW players think it is.

fair enough, but at that point why try and take it all away then? What is wrong with customization as its seen in the TT?

[TheRulesLawyer]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 10:03 AM, said:

fair enough, but at that point why try and take it all away then? What is wrong with customization as its seen in the TT?

Do you mean the full TT rules or the TT as seen in MW? If you're talking about the full TT rules, nothing. I support it 100%. It would make some interesting challenges to design around. If you mean the other there are a number of issues. 1) Canon. That level isn't really possible. 2) Game balance. Extensive customization makes any balancing effort more difficult and any errors in balancing will be immediately exploited. Also it gives little incentive to try new chassis and turns mechs into walking weapon cabinets of various sizes, destroying alot of the flavor of many designs.

[Omigir]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 10:18 AM, said:

Do you mean the full TT rules or the TT as seen in MW? If you're talking about the full TT rules, nothing. I support it 100%. It would make some interesting challenges to design around. If you mean the other there are a number of issues. 1) Canon. That level isn't really possible. 2) Game balance. Extensive customization makes any balancing effort more difficult and any errors in balancing will be immediately exploited. Also it gives little incentive to try new chassis and turns mechs into walking weapon cabinets of various sizes, destroying alot of the flavor of many designs.

I think 'walking weapons cabnets' and 'super weapon boats' would get out stratagized to the point where they are not an exploit or unfair.
Also I would like to assume there are going to be checks and balances as far as this goes and roll based warfair is going to help expand Mechwarrior away from the issues every one seems to have with forcing people to pilot mechs they dont want to pilot. Also, teirs of mechs for each roll might sugest that the higher end teir may not support your roll and you would have to modify it to do so.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 12:02 PM, said:

I think 'walking weapons cabnets' and 'super weapon boats' would get out stratagized to the point where they are not an exploit or unfair.
Also I would like to assume there are going to be checks and balances as far as this goes and roll based warfair is going to help expand Mechwarrior away from the issues every one seems to have with forcing people to pilot mechs they dont want to pilot. Also, teirs of mechs for each roll might sugest that the higher end teir may not support your roll and you would have to modify it to do so.

They only have to be successful for a short while, or just avoid vets who will know how to deal with them. With regard to checks & balances. Games have been slow to introduce them in the past. There has been no indication that we will have tiers.

[Omigir]

A thought i had on another forum was this.

There is a variant out there for every kind of play. And once that player finds that variant he wants, there is no incentive that is big enough for him to move away from it. That variant does what he wants, why should he change. So dont punish us guys who like to customise and try difrent things on difrent chassies becuase you are afraid people wont try out 'difrent mechs becuase they can put it all in one.' He is going to do it any way.

campers gona camp, jump snipers gona jump, and missle boater is going boat. Let me play my way, becuase you cant stop those guys from doing it anway.

[Raeven]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

A thought i had on another forum was this.

There is a variant out there for every kind of play. And once that player finds that variant he wants, there is no incentive that is big enough for him to move away from it. That variant does what he wants, why should he change. So dont punish us guys who like to customise and try difrent things on difrent chassies becuase you are afraid people wont try out 'difrent mechs becuase they can put it all in one.' He is going to do it any way.

campers gona camp, jump snipers gona jump, and missle boater is going boat. Let me play my way, becuase you cant stop those guys from doing it anway.

There is nothing wrong with customization on it's own. What customization will do in a video game is highlight the weaknesses inherent in certain 'Mech loadouts. Unless the game is perfectly balanced, strong weapons will dominate over weak weapons and the balance and flavor will shift to a few choice loadouts vs. a few choice loadouts. The reason missle boaters and laser boaters are the way they are is because the games mechanics have encouraged those loadouts.

No one is suggesting you be punished for wanting to customize your 'Mech. Just keep in mind, customization can create a whole slew of problems by itself and needs careful control and monitoring to be done right.

[CaveMan]

There are something like 500 canon 'Mech designs and variants available in the point in the timeline where MWO will be starting. All of them have been officially vetted for tournament play, each with its own particular strengths and weaknesses.

If you can't find one you like, you need to get over yourself and stop being so picky. The devs aren't obligated to let you have your custom-tailored ubermech at the expense of a game with balance and variety.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

A thought i had on another forum was this.

There is a variant out there for every kind of play. And once that player finds that variant he wants, there is no incentive that is big enough for him to move away from it. That variant does what he wants, why should he change. So dont punish us guys who like to customise and try difrent things on difrent chassies becuase you are afraid people wont try out 'difrent mechs becuase they can put it all in one.' He is going to do it any way.

campers gona camp, jump snipers gona jump, and missle boater is going boat. Let me play my way, becuase you cant stop those guys from doing it anway.

Everyone can find a stock varient they like yes. The issue is that if a weapon is unbalanced it becomes an issue far quicker if every chassis can mount as many as they can stuff in vs only a few chassis use that weapon in any great number. So no you can't stop people from boating, but you can limit the extent.

[CaveMan]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 12:58 PM, said:

Everyone can find a stock varient they like yes. The issue is that if a weapon is unbalanced it becomes an issue far quicker if every chassis can mount as many as they can stuff in vs only a few chassis use that weapon in any great number. So no you can't stop people from boating, but you can limit the extent.

Not to mention that if heat, recycle times, and aiming are dealt with properly, boating and jump-sniping are non-issues. Boaters won't be able to keep up with their heat loads and jump snipers won't hit the broad side of an Overlord dropship. If missiles spread out the way they're supposed to instead of instant lock-on death like in previous MW games, missile boating will be fixed as well.

Camping/hillhumping can be dealt with easily by letting commanders call in artillery strikes.

The only problem that remains is the Boring Generic Custom Ubermech.

[Omigir]

What I keep hearing from the most recent posts, is you are all afraid that people will go for the best weapons and ignore the 'weak' ones.

Just like your afraid some people will avoid 'weak' variants or mechs. So, why even have them in there? They fit a roll you say? So if you want that roll, just avoid that mech/weapon? Oh, ok. well now you have the same problem your are teling me your trying to void, the same weapons/variants/mechs becuase they are primo best.

You want to limit people from walking into battle with a bunch of primo weapons? So maybe the Nova, Super Nova, Awsome, Nova Cat and other natural mechs that are built around pure premo should not be in the game at all. How is me putting 3 ppc's on a simularly weight mech as an awsome any difrent then piloting an awsome other than i think that other mech looks cooler? Like wise, your not limiting what your fighitng, your not promoting veriety, your just afraid people will try and make as said, an 'uber mech' which if you make heat and amo restrictions worth a damn, Not to mention the changes one person would have to make to a make to make it uber, also makes it weak to basic mechwarrior strategy.

I dont see a case for taking out customization. Ubermechs probably wont last long, and unless you some manage to make your ubermech weigh more then 100 or 110 tons, its not going to be any more powerfull than any of its variants. Pilots still have consider heat, c-bill battle value and roll. If you make brawler roll, you still have to worry about getting shot in the back, getting both leggs snagged out from under you along with E-war and probably snipers.

So what is it you are really afraid of? Coming up against some one with a retarted mech who sacrifices basic piloting machanics for a big upfront punch? Afraid your own assault wont be able to outpilot him? What is it? Really.

and for the record, I pilot lights and meds. So im not vouching for an uber mech myself, i just dont see any real cons to shut down the pros of customization. if an ubermech is the best you got, then you are a poor pilot or have a un orginized team that cant out mauver his probably slow, 0 armored leg/back mech.

[CaveMan]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

So what is it you are really afraid of? Coming up against some one with a retarted mech who sacrifices basic piloting machanics for a big upfront punch? Afraid your own assault wont be able to outpilot him? What is it? Really.

It ain't fear. It's disgust. Wide open mechlab means there will be about 5 actual configurations in use once people figure out what the optimal loadouts are. It leads to a game with no soul. Those of us who are longtime veterans of the TT game know that when you allow customs, you eventually end up with everybody using TC/LPL monsters. There's no variation, no strategy, just *pew pew pew* until the game ends. People making do with 'Mechs that frankly aren't so great, and kicking *** all the same, that's what makes this setting awesome.

[Omigir]

CaveMan, on 16 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

It ain't fear. It's disgust. Wide open mechlab means there will be about 5 actual configurations in use once people figure out what the optimal loadouts are. It leads to a game with no soul. Those of us who are longtime veterans of the TT game know that when you allow customs, you eventually end up with everybody using TC/LPL monsters. There's no variation, no strategy, just *pew pew pew* until the game ends. People making do with 'Mechs that frankly aren't so great, and kicking *** all the same, that's what makes this setting awesome.

Do your games promote bonuses for roll warfair?
Also, what is stopping people from getting that one variant that seems to do the same thing as that one custom variant and using just that one cannon variant? Its the same thing. When you only have one mech available to sit in once your in the battle, your going to go for the variant that works best for you, and your going to use it over and over and over and your not going to try anything else. Its the same face on both sides of the coin. The only diference, your canon variant is already made, and the custom version probably mirrios an already existing variant if it does not strip / sacrifice armor and other BS to make 'extra room'. Not to mention there are going to be canon mechs that do not apear, or a variant of a canon mech one person lieks and wants to do something simular too, but now cant becuase they only have variants a-c available to them. there are not going to be anywhere near 500 mechs with all variants available and you are going to have to 'shel' a chassie to make that one canon variant you have always wanted try in order to have it in MWO

People are going to pee on lor and canon wather you allow them custom mechs or not, may as well not take away a tool for every one in a futal attempt to stop the few that will do it like it or not.

[CaveMan]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

Also, what is stopping people from getting that one variant that seems to do the same thing as that one custom variant and using just that one cannon variant? Its the same thing.

No, it isn't. There's not one particular canon 'Mech that's far-and-away superior to all the others, differences between Clan and IS tech aside. The closest thing you get to the dreaded TC/LPL boat is one or two Warhawk and Turkina variants and the Sagittaire, and all of those have serious heat or range issues built in. All the 'Mechs are basically balanced within their own particular BV range.

With customs you get optimized heat loads with long range accuracy and targeting computers, and people even go to the trouble of arranging their critical slots by hit probability to make them as perfect as possible.

Quote

there are not going to be anywhere near 500 mechs with all variants available and you are going to have to 'shel' a chassie to make that one canon variant you have always wanted try in order to have it in MWO

Even if they restrict it to the 30 or so machines in TRO3050, with the "on paper" variants that appear in the record sheets books you're still looking at 100+ configurations. The game would have to include less than a dozen chassis to not have a big variety of vetted loads available.

Even with role warfare, customs will lead to one or two "best" configs for each role instead of the wild garden of TRO designs.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

What I keep hearing from the most recent posts, is you are all afraid that people will go for the best weapons and ignore the 'weak' ones.

Just like your afraid some people will avoid 'weak' variants or mechs. So, why even have them in there? They fit a roll you say? So if you want that roll, just avoid that mech/weapon? Oh, ok. well now you have the same problem your are teling me your trying to void, the same weapons/variants/mechs becuase they are primo best.

I'm not afraid they will. I know they will. It happens in every single game. For a unlimited mech lab to work you have to assume that the balance is working properly. Well what happens if say the Medium pulse laser is a noticably too powerful in the latest patch?

With mechlab you'll have everyone running a MPL heavy mech within a couple of days most likely. Without mechlab you have to find the chassis that has the most MPL and then decide if the downsides of that chassis's other weapons, handlilng, etc outweigh the recently OP MPL. Sure eventually people will settle on a couple stock chassis that are most effective, but I bet you get far more "best" choices according to personal preference *and* it will slow down the adoption if nothing else. It'll take far longer to weigh the pros/cons of a chassis change vs a loadout change. Also a mech chassis will be something you can't change like its a suit of clothes, and that'll slow down the adoption further. Hopefully enough so that they can patch the OPness of the MPL before making another OP weapon and starting the whole cycle over again.

So limited mechlab isn't about completely stopping the chase for the most effective configuration, its more about moderating it. It also has a side benefit of making the game more interesting and modification more challenging IMHO. However I admit that's a bit of a preference thing.

Edited by TheRulesLawyer, 16 December 2011 - 01:57 PM.

[Omigir]

If some time is taken, many of these problems are midigated. Its not hard to ballance it out. for any kind of overwhelming advantage in a BM, you have to give up an overwhelming somethng else, whether it be tonnage or heat. There is no such thing as a 'ubermech.' Allt he one shoters and boats I saw on MW4, fell to my cougar which clearly was not an uber mech. it was ballanced and not to far away from a stock variant. Just slightly tweeked to be a little faster and a little bit less armor. if these overly customized and saturated pices of junk keep getting blasted, which they will, they will stop existing. So again, dont punish my choice becuase your afraid of your 'omg uber mech pee on your lore' nonsens. That is a fear.

pluss, there are not going to be any infanant ammo/no heat servers like in Mechwarrior 4. There is a right way to do a mechlab and instead of just saying 'no' try and help figure out the balance.

and before you say that I wont play a TRO design, well think again, we all have to start some were and I rather enjoy the Stock Centurion quite a bit, not to mention who can say no to an Awsome?

[Omigir]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm not afraid they will. I know they will. It happens in every single game. For a unlimited mech lab to work you have to assume that the balance is working properly. Well what happens if say the Medium pulse laser is a noticably too powerful in the latest patch?

With mechlab you'll have everyone running a MPL heavy mech within a couple of days most likely. Without mechlab you have to find the chassis that has the most MPL and then decide if the downsides of that chassis's other weapons, handlilng, etc outweigh the recently OP MPL. Sure eventually people will settle on a couple stock chassis that are most effective, but I bet you get far more "best" choices according to personal preference *and* it will slow down the adoption if nothing else. It'll take far longer to weigh the pros/cons of a chassis change vs a loadout change. Also a mech chassis will be something you can't change like its a suit of clothes, and that'll slow down the adoption further. Hopefully enough so that they can patch the OPness of the MPL before making another OP weapon and starting the whole cycle over again.

So limited mechlab isn't about completely stopping the chase for the most effective configuration, its more about moderating it. It also has a side benefit of making the game more interesting and modification more challenging IMHO. However I admit that's a bit of a preference thing.

I am ok with a limited mechlab.That is fine, atleast your trying to come half way here.

the thing about balances though, is it could easly happen to a mech variant as it can for a single weapon system too. I am infact willing to bet the awsome is the first mech nurfed or they decide heat needs to matter more because of it. Point is, argument applies to both mech lab and the tro only argument.

further more, no one ever said unlimited mech lab. I beleave in having to purchase each chassie you own and even in multiples becuase they can get pounded into scrap. Also, you have to buy each weapon and bullet you fire. Meaning that if i want an LRM, i have to purchase it to put on there. Its not just an infanate number of lasers and weapons in my mechbay. Think more like the mechlab on MW4 campaign vise the online mechlab. two difrent kinds of gameply.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Omigir, on 16 December 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

If some time is taken, many of these problems are midigated. Its not hard to ballance it out. for any kind of overwhelming advantage in a BM, you have to give up an overwhelming somethng else, whether it be tonnage or heat. There is no such thing as a 'ubermech.' Allt he one shoters and boats I saw on MW4, fell to my cougar which clearly was not an uber mech. it was ballanced and not to far away from a stock variant. Just slightly tweeked to be a little faster and a little bit less armor. if these overly customized and saturated pices of junk keep getting blasted, which they will, they will stop existing. So again, dont punish my choice becuase your afraid of your 'omg uber mech pee on your lore' nonsens. That is a fear.

pluss, there are not going to be any infanant ammo/no heat servers like in Mechwarrior 4. There is a right way to do a mechlab and instead of just saying 'no' try and help figure out the balance.

and before you say that I wont play a TRO design, well think again, we all have to start some were and I rather enjoy the Stock Centurion quite a bit, not to mention who can say no to an Awsome?

You're assuming all the weapons will be balanced property which isn't a very good assumption. If there is one thing you can be sure of, its that players are very good at finding flaws in game mechanics. Balance is very hard and its an ongoing battle in any MMO.