66 replies to this topic

[oneproduct]

Can we see some stats on how much damage on average a clan mech takes before it dies compared to an inner sphere mech?

More so than any balance problems that may come from differences between clan and inner sphere weapons, the clan XL engine is what makes them so resilient.

I understand that losing one side torso with a clan XL engine is not supposed to kill them. That's fine. The problem is that that destroyed side torso blocks 50% damage to the center torso when they torso twist.

This is the reason why a stalker that torso twists is so tanky: the center torso has almost twice the health it would normally have because of the 50% damage transfer when hitting destroyed sections. This same property makes clan XL engines provide far more resilience that even a clan XL engine should normally afford.

And because someone will argue that inner sphere mechs get the option to take standard engines, you have to be pretty foolish to want a standard engine in a clan mech. With a clan XL engine you get all the weight savings that allow you to carry the firepower you need and the only "punishment" is that if you lose both your side torsos you die. It's not like you're likely in good shape if you lost both your side torsos and there aren't many clan mechs that make good zombies anyways.

I would very much like to see destroyed components not shielding 50% damage for both inner sphere and clan mechs.

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[NovaFury]

This would hugely nerf the centurion and atlas.

[Mcgral18]

NovaFury, on 02 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

This would hugely nerf the centurion and atlas.

Make it a quirk to problem mechs.

[Kavoh]

Its a 50% damage reduction, because the center torso is now 50-100% of a bigger target. Want to do 100% damage to it? Hit the CT.

[Xetelian]

That is assuming every shot is going into the side that gets blown off and that would also require the enemy to NOT fire back centering the middle torso for a shot would open them up so the shield you speak of is very limited.

[oneproduct]

The shield is hardly very limited. A smart enemy is going to torso twist and actively try to hide his center from you so "choosing" to hit him in the center torso is not always an option, particularly if he is very far away which limits your firing angles.

The effectiveness of a broken side torso as a shield is showcased every day by centurions and stalkers, some of the inner sphere mechs which have particularly useful side torso hit boxes and which usually carry standard engines. My problem with it is that every clan mech gets this same shield and that many of them have very good side torso hit boxes to take advantage of this mechanic with.

This gives clan mechs far greater effective health on average, beyond the fact that they already have much higher effective health due to not dying from losing a single side torso.

In terms of the enemy not being able to fire back in order to use the shield, people deal with that every day. The receiving mech simply doesn't center to look at you until you shoot first. If you don't shoot, he just waits patiently. Once you shoot into his shield then he twists and returns fire.

Anyways, this is just to help normalize effective health between clan and inner sphere mechs.

It doesn't have to drop from a 50% shield to nothing, but it should likely be reduced.

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Zordicron]

This is a part of the game mechanics I like, and serves to allow IS mechs with STD engines some incentive to take said STD engine even though it has a huge tonnage penalty over XL.

Really, in a game where TTK is frequently discussed, I am always amazed when people come here and complain about not being able to blindly shoot a mech and destroy it. Perfect convergence, hitscan weapons that hit right where you point them, etc: aim at the CT if you want to core the CT. Aim where you want to hit, period.

The idea this has benefits for certain mechs more then others IMO is simply a decent fluff for those certain mechs. Homogenized mechwarrior=boring mechwarrior. If a Centurian wasn't tough, what would it be? Answer: a really bad Trebuchet, and a worse Shawk. It is, at this point, part of the defining characteristics of the mech.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Yeah, lets totally make mechs like the Atlas, Stalker, Centurion, Awesome, and Hunchback even worse.

[oneproduct]

Eldagore, on 02 November 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

This is a part of the game mechanics I like, and serves to allow IS mechs with STD engines some incentive to take said STD engine even though it has a huge tonnage penalty over XL.

Really, in a game where TTK is frequently discussed, I am always amazed when people come here and complain about not being able to blindly shoot a mech and destroy it. Perfect convergence, hitscan weapons that hit right where you point them, etc: aim at the CT if you want to core the CT. Aim where you want to hit, period.

The idea this has benefits for certain mechs more then others IMO is simply a decent fluff for those certain mechs. Homogenized mechwarrior=boring mechwarrior. If a Centurian wasn't tough, what would it be? Answer: a really bad Trebuchet, and a worse Shawk. It is, at this point, part of the defining characteristics of the mech.

While I would like to see TTK increased (live longer) I think that it should be done in another way and not through a mechanic that heavily favors the clans by giving every single clan mech a free 50% damage shield.

I don't think that having a standard engine provide a shield is incentive enough to not take an inner sphere XL engine on mechs that generally warrant it and this kind of thinking is reinforced by the typical builds used by competitive players.

And some mechs, like the centurion, already do have uniqueness through geometry/hit boxes that tend to buff their effective health simply by having side torsos that tend to block shots for their center torso more than others. We don't need both better geometry plus a random 50% damage shield.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 November 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Yeah, lets totally make mechs like the Atlas, Stalker, Centurion, Awesome, and Hunchback even worse.

They would be worse in a sense, but they would also be better in a sense because their clan competitors would also be weaker. The difference is that every clan mech comes with a free shield whereas the inner sphere mechs that tend to take shields are a select few due to many mechs needing to take inner sphere XL engines to bring a competitive amount of firepower.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Kavoh, on 02 November 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Its a 50% damage reduction, because the center torso is now 50-100% of a bigger target. Want to do 100% damage to it? Hit the CT.

EXACTLY!!!!!!! Cuz even if the internals are destroyed, im sure they are still there, just mangled and not really functioning....kinda like Berlin after WWII.....alot of hte buildings were there, just in rubble...and if you wanna shoot the tank hiding in the rubble and do 100% penetration, hit the tank, not the wall and then hope hte pen hits the tank lol....

[oneproduct]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 November 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

EXACTLY!!!!!!! Cuz even if the internals are destroyed, im sure they are still there, just mangled and not really functioning....kinda like Berlin after WWII.....alot of hte buildings were there, just in rubble...and if you wanna shoot the tank hiding in the rubble and do 100% penetration, hit the tank, not the wall and then hope hte pen hits the tank lol....

That's a pretty arbitrary analogy and I could easily make up my own that reinforces my viewpoint. I think it's more akin to saying you've got a broken arm, and when someone punches your broken arm it hurts even more than usual because of how sensitive it is.

Or if you want to make up mech analogies, if you've already penetrated the armor on one section of the mech, why not shoot through the existing hole into the soft insides rather than hit fresh armor again?

[Scratx]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

That's a pretty arbitrary analogy and I could easily make up my own that reinforces my viewpoint. I think it's more akin to saying you've got a broken arm, and when someone punches your broken arm it hurts even more than usual because of how sensitive it is.

Or if you want to make up mech analogies, if you've already penetrated the armor on one section of the mech, why not shoot through the existing hole into the soft insides rather than hit fresh armor again?

Tell you what, remodel every mech so that when a side torso is destroyed, its entire side torso mesh goes away, basically making the only remaining part the CT itself. Then we can talk about removing or reducing the 50% damage reduction for damage transference.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

They would be worse in a sense, but they would also be better in a sense because their clan competitors would also be weaker. The difference is that every clan mech comes with a free shield whereas the inner sphere mechs that tend to take shields are a select few due to many mechs needing to take inner sphere XL engines to bring a competitive amount of firepower.

So nerf EVERYTHING across the board? That still makes clan mechs still better. You're weakening everything by X amount. So the stuff that's the best is still the best. And you're dropping TTKs across the board in a game where people complain about short TTKs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Better yet, why not make it an incentive for mounting Standard internals over Endo.

Standard gives you the current 50% damage transfer, while mounting Endo means you get better weight savings over Ferro, but at the cost of your magical transfer bonus. Problem solved (and ironically ripped from MW4).

[oneproduct]

Scratx, on 02 November 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Tell you what, remodel every mech so that when a side torso is destroyed, its entire side torso mesh goes away, basically making the only remaining part the CT itself. Then we can talk about removing or reducing the 50% damage reduction for damage transference.

When you torso twist the cross section of the mech doesn't exactly get any bigger or smaller between side torso and center torso. A stalker from a side view with its side torso missing would be just as big of a target. This is true for basically every mech. E.g. when you look at an atlas's chest, his side torsos are just as thick as his center torso, so if you were shooting him from the side he doesn't become any smaller of a target if the side torso fell off.

But leave the side torso meshes there. It makes just as much sense that you should have to twist away to protect your broken side torso as it does to intentionally twist the broken side torso to use it as a shield. And again, I'm not saying you have to cut it from 50% to 0%. It could just be slightly reduced.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 November 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

So nerf EVERYTHING across the board? That still makes clan mechs still better. You're weakening everything by X amount. So the stuff that's the best is still the best. And you're dropping TTKs across the board in a game where people complain about short TTKs.

As I already said, I would like to increase TTK but it should be done in a right way. Right now 50% broken side torso shields favor clan mechs more than inner sphere mechs who only make good use of them on a few chasses.

And it would not make clan mechs better at all. How do you think that? Every clan mech would lose its damage shield compared to only a few inner sphere mechs.

WM Quicksilver, on 02 November 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

Better yet, why not make it an incentive for mounting Standard internals over Endo.

Standard gives you the current 50% damage transfer, while mounting Endo means you get better weight savings over Ferro, but at the cost of your magical transfer bonus. Problem solved (and ironically ripped from MW4).

Did MW4 really do that? That's quite interesting and could be an option.

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 03:28 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Did the Clan Mechs get their movement and heat penalty for destroyed side torsos yet? Lets do that first and not nerf IS mechs when it's clearly Clan-XL that is the issue here

Edited by Troutmonkey, 02 November 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[Kavoh]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

That's a pretty arbitrary analogy and I could easily make up my own that reinforces my viewpoint. I think it's more akin to saying you've got a broken arm, and when someone punches your broken arm it hurts even more than usual because of how sensitive it is.

Or if you want to make up mech analogies, if you've already penetrated the armor on one section of the mech, why not shoot through the existing hole into the soft insides rather than hit fresh armor again?

Your first analogy is so far off its making my head hurt. If I break my arm and someone punches me in that arm, yea, it hurts like crazy, but my lung doesn't deflate because you punched my broken arm...

As for your second analogy, if you want to aim for gauss slug sized holes literally all over a mechs body, be my guest. We are already getting it easy when we shoot the tip of a barrel and the whole arm comes off. The 50% damage reduction when you shoot a destroyed limb is akin to the laser hitting debris and metal blocking its flight path to the CT (your aiming point). The gauss slug will still get there, and the laser will still burn it, but its got a couple feet of mangled metal and internal structure to work its way through first.

Edited by Kavoh, 02 November 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

I already said, I would like to increase TTK but it should be done in a right way. Right now 50% broken side torso shields favor clan mechs more than inner sphere mechs who only make good use of them on a few chasses.

And it would not make clan mechs better at all. How do you think that? Every clan mech would lose its damage shield compared to only a few inner sphere mechs.

Dammit. No. It wouldn't make the clan mechs better. But it wouldn't change the status quo. Clan mechs would still be X amount better. X never changed.

So what's the advantage to a standard engine then? Why not just take an XL and pack more guns. Since the damage transfer mechanic means you just doubled the size of the CT on a ST blowout.

If clan mechs are 50% more effective than IS mechs, and you introduce a blanket nerf to ALL mechs including standard engine IS mechs. Guess what, clan mechs are still 50% more effective.

What about that is unclear?

Is anyone else having difficulty understanding this?

[oneproduct]

Kavoh, on 02 November 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Your first analogy is so far off its making my head hurt. If I break my arm and someone punches me in that arm, yea, it hurts like crazy, but my lung doesn't deflate because you punched my broken arm...

As for your second analogy, if you want to aim for gauss slug sized holes literally a mechs body, be my guest. We are already getting it easy when we shoot the tip of a barrel and the whole arm comes off. The 50% damage reduction when you shoot a destroyed limb is akin to the laser hitting debris and metal blocking its flight path to the CT (your aiming point). The gauss slug will still get there, and the laser will still burn it, but its got a couple feet of mangled metal and internal structure to work its way through first.

These are analogies, so they don't really matter. They're all going to have faults.

For the second counter example, consider that I already destroyed all the internals of that broken component, i.e. my laser already burnt through it all or, as someone else suggested, the whole section of it literally fell off. In any case even if there is debris left, it still makes far more sense to shoot through to the center torso through the weakened debris of the side torso rather than through armor which is intentionally there to stop damage. How is the debris twice as strong as actual armor? Can I cover my mech with debris instead of armor please?

[LordKnightFandragon]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

That's a pretty arbitrary analogy and I could easily make up my own that reinforces my viewpoint. I think it's more akin to saying you've got a broken arm, and when someone punches your broken arm it hurts even more than usual because of how sensitive it is.

Or if you want to make up mech analogies, if you've already penetrated the armor on one section of the mech, why not shoot through the existing hole into the soft insides rather than hit fresh armor again?

The armor and overall internal structure is still there, its just broken down. Just cuz its destroyed doesnt mean there is literally an entire portion of the mech missing......its just busted all to hell and not functioning.....any additional shots through that area are still going through w/e wreckage is in the way. At best all our fire is melting holes in the armor or penetrating holes in it, its not blowing away an entire armor piece.......Only when we get an Ammo pop would that be happening...