61 replies to this topic

[Naglinator]

[Gyrok]

Grantham Besat, on 13 November 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

This is part of the issue groups split up because of differences but some people will try to tear apart anything others do that they have a grudge against. I will not debate you Gyrok I wish you every bit of luck but until you can play the game without a Grudge against Alpha or a Grudge now against us as a fuel source you will have issues. anger is not a good place to base a clan on. I understand you did not like failing our 1 v 1 testing when you applied to join us but at the same time we did warn you it was a test.

Failing? What? lol...ok...I did 2-3 matches 1v1. That was it. There was no "failing" about it, pally had to log.

Look...I am not bitter at you. Frankly...I JUST THANKED YOU!

I am not debating anything. I thanked you for taking the people that I now have the clarity to see were negative influences on the group. THANK YOU!!! I am not being negative at all. I am happy that you guys are getting along fine, I am glad. It has made us stronger.

Why do you think I am being bitter, or angry or anything like that? I want to keep up a friendly communication line...

Tone is poorly conveyed through text. The reality is I am happy for you AND me.

Lighten up man...I am not at all bitter...though it seems you may be...

Edited by Gyrok, 13 November 2014 - 04:26 PM.

[Grantham Besat]

Lukoi Banacek, on 13 November 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

What "needs to be in place?"

This is all just hand-wave, theorycrafting atm.

What do you need that you do not have? We can all meet here via the forums to debate ideas/issues readily enough. We all have multiple TS options to communicate in person. What else do you need? What this entire thread implies is that you would like to see a hierarchy develop, and to a degree that was attempted with the GC. The problem there being, outside of a a select few, no unit was going to subborn itself to the decisions of such an eclectic and argumentative collective.

This also implies you want to determine alliances and potentially alignment. The latter is not likely to occur unit CW is actually explained and understandable and frankly will be highly affected by the nostalgia factor of many players. Alliances are what they are. Engendering more takes time and collaboration. So drop in, do some scrims with some teams, see who shares your mindset to some degree and boom all set. But I doubt the Loyalists are going to unify in agreement on how to play this stuff out...at least not at this point. Alliances are not likely to form via discussion.

Alot of it is in-place but not used as much as we need to. When could we do more of the inter-clan skrims ? could we make that a weekly date?

[Gyrok]

Grantham Besat, on 13 November 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Alot of it is in-place but not used as much as we need to. When could we do more of the inter-clan skrims ? could we make that a weekly date?

Probably could get bi-weekly going...we should be up for some skirms in the near future...maybe another week or 2.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Grantham Besat, on 13 November 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Alot of it is in-place but not used as much as we need to. When could we do more of the inter-clan skrims ? could we make that a weekly date?

"We" like Smoke Adders and Stampede of Steel? Sure.

"We" like the Daggerstar community? Not likely.

The showing at last week's open scrimmage call was disorganized and very "meh" for lack of a better term. Just not worth repeating. It is why we usually only scrimmage one unit vs one unit. Open scrimmages are a tough one to pull off for some reason.

Now....scramble events do good. Things with really small groups do well. But anything akin to a tourney format...basically folks have to sign on, set times ahead of schedule, know their opponents, the actual match format etc.

That's just my experience though.

[Grantham Besat]

Lukoi Banacek, on 13 November 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

"We" like Smoke Adders and Stampede of Steel? Sure.

"We" like the Daggerstar community? Not likely.

The showing at last week's open scrimmage call was disorganized and very "meh" for lack of a better term. Just not worth repeating. It is why we usually only scrimmage one unit vs one unit. Open scrimmages are a tough one to pull off for some reason.

Now....scramble events do good. Things with really small groups do well. But anything akin to a tourney format...basically folks have to sign on, set times ahead of schedule, know their opponents, the actual match format etc.

That's just my experience though.

hmm open skrim night would set a date every week for people to atleast start logging onto SM to hang out. need to ponder this a bit as you are right that first try was meh

[Pariah Devalis]

Lukoi Banacek, on 13 November 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

But anything akin to a tourney format...basically folks have to sign on, set times ahead of schedule, know their opponents, the actual match format etc.

Note on this, not to undermine Skele's excellent work, but to add: constant tourneys cause burnout. Needing to practice with your teammates. Needing to play at a certain level to stand a chance at victory. Needing certain builds to increase your odds. Needing to be on at a specific time for a specific period of time. Needing this. Needing that. Very quickly it sounds less like a game and more like a job.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 November 2014 - 04:56 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 November 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Note on this, not to undermine Skele's excellent work, but to add: constant tourneys cause burnout. Needing to practice with your teammates. Needing to play at a certain level to stand a chance at victory. Needing certain builds to increase your odds. Needing to be on at a specific time for a specific period of time. Needing this. Needing that. Very quickly it sounds less like a game and more like a job.

Truth.

No one probably noticed, but I purposefully did not participate in Skeletor's Tournaments and that was part of the why. I simply don't have the interest in the time consuming nature of those tournies after all of the other stuff going on. I am however, glad he organized them because clearly they drummed up some great interest among the various teams, so it's a great thing.

Scrims are easy. You can set a date, bring your bodies, know the match parameters well before hand and it's not a chore. It's some set drops to break up the sameness of open queue drops, with some deliberate, rehearsed and typically challenging, competition.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Keira RAVEN McKenna, on 13 November 2014 - 12:36 AM, said:

on the other side of the coin... We, The Clans are designed to NOT co-ordinate together but instead to actively compete against each other even towards a common goal.

Which is why the Dark Caste/SpecOps should come into play. Look Ive been on both sides of the RP coin (The HardCore and the NoCore) and I feel both are viable in CW. The thing is if Bandit Caste is going to act as SpecOp's the 'Actual' Clans shouldnt have any in-put as to what we are doing (Plausible Deniability) but they should be kept in the loop and be able to offer suggestions on how we can be best put to use. I wont mention the Ideas I have here since its public and my ideas aint playin fair, but 'Alls Fair in Love and War'. I think the Dagger Star Units mostly being of lower member numbers can work to the Clans afvantage, just so long as no one unit gets all Bloated Headed and Chest Thumpy and everyone remembers the ultimate goal of the Clans; The Capture of Terra, no not the conquest of the Innner Sphere, just the Capture of Terra and the Reemergence of the Star League. Remember the IS thinks that the HPG is damn near Magic, while the Clans know that its just technology. But Ego's got involved (as is human nature) in the Lore and if we as a whole remember to not go down that path there wont be a Tukayid , because instead of biding and zellbrigen yadda yadda we fight like a true conquering force would, which means there will be some dirty fighting involved. But all this can be hammered out if and when the meetings go down.

Ok Ive babbled enough for now,

[Pariah Devalis]

Lukoi Banacek, on 13 November 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Truth.

No one probably noticed, but I purposefully did not participate in Skeletor's Tournaments and that was part of the why. I simply don't have the interest in the time consuming nature of those tournies after all of the other stuff going on. I am however, glad he organized them because clearly they drummed up some great interest among the various teams, so it's a great thing.

Scrims are easy. You can set a date, bring your bodies, know the match parameters well before hand and it's not a chore. It's some set drops to break up the sameness of open queue drops, with some deliberate, rehearsed and typically challenging, competition.

Absolutely agree. I was only in the last one because he specifically requested it, and even then my heart was not really into it. It was just a job that had to be done. However, I rather more informal affairs. Some of the most fun I have had in MWO has been spur of the moment.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 November 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Now Y'all can just come on over to the Dark Syde, We have Clones of a 22 year old Jenny McCarthy, freely flowing Gold Schlager and you can maintain your Touman and Keshik and just gather under the Blanket of Bandit Caste, which allows you those outs when Zellbrigen and Batchal become 'difficult', we're the Chaotic Neutral of the BTech universe! (CN if oft referred to as the 'Cop Out' alignment since its so free wheeling. ANYTHING can be done without having Alignment conflicts simply because CN's view is 'As long as it has some benefit for me I have no problem with doing that.', and is often referenced to Mafia or Organized Crime syndicate having the same view.) And we have a history of combining remnants of Clans into the Fold with the Bleating Geese and GoldSchlager Guard Clusters from Mongoose (see goose, geese? the Bleating is CBS's signature 'BAAAAAAH!' battle cry) and GhostBear respectively that had autonomous control, and the added benefit of making the hardcore RP'er's kick and complain. This weekends Faction challenge seems ready made for putting out feelers and seeing how well our varied Units intermingle and coordinate in combat.

[Summon3r]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 13 November 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Which is why the Dark Caste/SpecOps should come into play. Look Ive been on both sides of the RP coin (The HardCore and the NoCore) and I feel both are viable in CW. The thing is if Bandit Caste is going to act as SpecOp's the 'Actual' Clans shouldnt have any in-put as to what we are doing (Plausible Deniability) but they should be kept in the loop and be able to offer suggestions on how we can be best put to use. I wont mention the Ideas I have here since its public and my ideas aint playin fair, but 'Alls Fair in Love and War'. I think the Dagger Star Units mostly being of lower member numbers can work to the Clans afvantage, just so long as no one unit gets all Bloated Headed and Chest Thumpy and everyone remembers the ultimate goal of the Clans; The Capture of Terra, no not the conquest of the Innner Sphere, just the Capture of Terra and the Reemergence of the Star League. Remember the IS thinks that the HPG is damn near Magic, while the Clans know that its just technology. But Ego's got involved (as is human nature) in the Lore and if we as a whole remember to not go down that path there wont be a Tukayid , because instead of biding and zellbrigen yadda yadda we fight like a true conquering force would, which means there will be some dirty fighting involved. But all this can be hammered out if and when the meetings go down.

Ok Ive babbled enough for now,

yes lets not let what is written in the history books repeat itself.

we all need to work together no matter how 1337 anyone thinks they are... as was stated in this thread lets roflstomp our way to Terra before we get nerfed to pre-star league era

[Joanna Conners]

My head hurts after three pages of this.

I think we can all agree we need to work together. I think most of us have agreed that we will. We still need to know how CW will be implemented in finer details. A lot of us have everyone's TS info or can get together on Strana Mechty. Beating one another up in a thread like this serves no purpose, least of all the basis of the original post.

When I drop, which hasn't been a lot lately, I still consistently see Beast and Paladin on my team or the other side too. That make me an ELO exception or am I "generally weak" too? That kind of comment is only going to insult an entire Clan and alienate them from working with you, FYI. A diplomatic tip.

[SoHxPaladin]

considering the forces that are usually in the matches we see each other, joanna, you could probably figure out the elo's really quick. being honest about what you see from current factions is not meant as a slight, but people take it as such. every clan/is faction has strong and weak representation. yes, people have agreed to work together, but some are working within a specific faction of the clans, while many others remain unaligned till CW drops and we are forced to do select one. I personally want to talk with folks about cw, without getting into the speculation part.

hashing out specifics gets into theory crafting, that we have no control over. we can talk about what we know about cw, and how that suits the units, but it is still a pipe dream for folks because they wont announce a solid "WILL BE OUT THIS DATE" but tentative schedules for hopeful release.

[SoHxPaladin]

Lukoi Banacek, on 13 November 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

What "needs to be in place?"

This is all just hand-wave, theorycrafting atm.

What do you need that you do not have? We can all meet here via the forums to debate ideas/issues readily enough. We all have multiple TS options to communicate in person. What else do you need? What this entire thread implies is that you would like to see a hierarchy develop, and to a degree that was attempted with the GC. The problem there being, outside of a a select few, no unit was going to subborn itself to the decisions of such an eclectic and argumentative collective.

This also implies you want to determine alliances and potentially alignment. The latter is not likely to occur unit CW is actually explained and understandable and frankly will be highly affected by the nostalgia factor of many players. Alliances are what they are. Engendering more takes time and collaboration. So drop in, do some scrims with some teams, see who shares your mindset to some degree and boom all set. But I doubt the Loyalists are going to unify in agreement on how to play this stuff out...at least not at this point. Alliances are not likely to form via discussion.

as per our talk, if the Grand Council was trying to figure in every minute detail and form a hierarchy, by GOD that would be exhausting. Lukoi, you saw the simple question i asked you, and now know what we are looking for from this. Do i believe it should be blasted on the forums? nope. do alliances form from conversation? yep. will everyone agree to everything any combined arms or units try to do? nope. but, not putting in the small effort and time to find out does nothing for anyone, and doing it last minute takes focus away from the fun, or planning, or excitement (IMO).

to make things clear, there is not a want or need for a hierarchy, just an alliance of combined units working towards the same ends. individual unit philosophies, tactics, etc. are their decisions to make. trying to guess at PGI's resource logistics and LP program is wasteful. but the basics can be covered. which is what i will do, 1 by 1 if i flipping have to, but wanted to just voice this in 15-30 min on a ts and get it over with till we get more solid detailed info.

Lukoi Banacek, on 13 November 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

What "needs to be in place?"

This is all just hand-wave, theorycrafting atm.

What do you need that you do not have? We can all meet here via the forums to debate ideas/issues readily enough. We all have multiple TS options to communicate in person. What else do you need? What this entire thread implies is that you would like to see a hierarchy develop, and to a degree that was attempted with the GC. The problem there being, outside of a a select few, no unit was going to subborn itself to the decisions of such an eclectic and argumentative collective.

This also implies you want to determine alliances and potentially alignment. The latter is not likely to occur unit CW is actually explained and understandable and frankly will be highly affected by the nostalgia factor of many players. Alliances are what they are. Engendering more takes time and collaboration. So drop in, do some scrims with some teams, see who shares your mindset to some degree and boom all set. But I doubt the Loyalists are going to unify in agreement on how to play this stuff out...at least not at this point. Alliances are not likely to form via discussion.

as per our talk, if the Grand Council was trying to figure in every minute detail and form a hierarchy, by GOD that would be exhausting. Lukoi, you saw the simple question i asked you, and now know what we are looking for from this. Do i believe it should be blasted on the forums? nope. do alliances form from conversation? yep. will everyone agree to everything any combined arms or units try to do? nope. but, not putting in the small effort and time to find out does nothing for anyone, and doing it last minute takes focus away from the fun, or planning, or excitement (IMO).

to make things clear, there is not a want or need for a hierarchy, just an alliance of combined units working towards the same ends. individual unit philosophies, tactics, etc. are their decisions to make. trying to guess at PGI's resource logistics and LP program is wasteful. but the basics can be covered. which is what i will do, 1 by 1 if i flipping have to, but wanted to just voice this in 15-30 min on a ts and get it over with till we get more solid detailed info.

[Lucky Moniker]

To be clear, The Grand Council was not formed to create any hierarchy, It was made for most of these same reasons. but there was some inter-clan issues at the time causing some tension, but that all blew over soon after. The main problem is no one knows what to talk about, you can bring up these points with people, but not many people have enough answers, and we just do not yet have the facts we need, as in, Do we actually need dedicated offense/defense? Do we even know what time the planets flip? How much do we have to keep an eye on things? Will cooperation even be all that neccesary aside from a few very basic things?

Also a lot of the people that were the most active on those forums, were not people that could just make decisions for their clans. For example, CGBI is very much so a democracy, or republic if you will (lol) even one of our 2 Galaxy Commanders could not just make a choice without consulting everyone. So these things take serious time to play out.

[CyclonerM]

Lucky Moniker, on 14 November 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Even one of our 2 Galaxy Commanders could not just make a choice without consulting everyone. So these things take serious time to play out.

The Bears apparently do not have their fame of patient hunters without reason

However, some units have this issue indeed. For any reason, many key officers do not follow so much the forums, while some low-rank warriors do, so we have to pass anything up the chain of command every time.

Edited by CyclonerM, 15 November 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Keira RAVEN McKenna, on 13 November 2014 - 12:36 AM, said:

on the other side of the coin... We, The Clans are designed to NOT co-ordinate together but instead to actively compete against each other even towards a common goal.

I disagree. From a lore standpoint we did, we did not like doing it but we did. Granted it took someone in the position of ilKhan to do it (and I would NOT recommend that for MWO), it DID get done.

RustyBolts, on 13 November 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I am not talking about that. I was talking about intra clan hostilities. Rusz said that there would be intra faction planets to fight over as well as inter factions. My concern is that while CGB is fighting to take a Kurita planet CSJ decides to try and take a CGB planet and etc....

If it happens, it happens. Unless there is an iron clad non aggression pact made by ALL Clans, this is to be expected. If Clan A determines that control of Planet X would give them an edge in the invasion & it is occupied by Clan B what is to stop them from trying to take it? That is why you have garrison units; to defend what you have from ANYONE. During the invasion, especially after the introduction of the three auxiliaries, there were Trials of Possessions for worlds.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 15 November 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Jaroth Corbett, on 15 November 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

Granted it took someone in the position of ilKhan to do it (and I would NOT recommend that for MWO),

Sure, most people will definitely feel differently, but i actually think an IlKhan is right what we need. If we had to vote a candidate among the Clan leaders, i would give my Aye either to Coffinail or my own Khan. A strong and wise leader is what we need, an example of leadership that could bring the most different Clans togheter. Ok, this is irrealistic, but i would willingly agree to have an IlKhan. Besides, someone might have to bargain for Terra

Quote

If it happens, it happens. Unless there is an iron clad non aggression pact made by ALL Clans, this is to be expected. If Clan A determines that control of Planet X would give them an edge in the invasion & it is occupied by Clan B what is to stop them from trying to take it? That is why you have garrison units; to defend what you have from ANYONE. During the invasion, especially after the introduction of the three auxiliaries, there were Trials of Possessions for worlds.

It can definitely happen, but as we do not have almost no logistic or even economical bonuses for owning certain planets in any invasion corridor, i think it will be wiser to just blitzkrieg toward Terra.

P.S. An interesting area of conflict between Clans will be Rasalhague. It will not be conquerable, so there will always be to keep our conquered FRR planets defended by attacks in our rear zone.

Edited by CyclonerM, 15 November 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

CyclonerM, on 15 November 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Sure, most people will definitely feel differently, but i actually think an IlKhan is right what we need. If we had to vote a candidate among the Clan leaders, i would give my Aye either to Coffinail or my own Khan. A strong and wise leader is what we need, an example of leadership that could bring the most different Clans togheter. Ok, this is irrealistic, but i would willingly agree to have an IlKhan. Besides, someone might have to bargain for Terra


It can definitely happen, but as we do not have almost no logistic or even economical bonuses for owning certain planets in any invasion corridor, i think it will be wiser to just blitzkrieg toward Terra.

P.S. An interesting area of conflict between Clans will be Rasalhague. It will not be conquerable, so there will always be to keep our conquered FRR planets defended by attacks in our rear zone.

The immense pressure ONE person would be under to coordinate all the different units representing the Clans would be unfair. It would definitely stop this being a game & make it a job.

Your compass points to Terra & you wish to get there as fast as you can, I get you however to quote Abraham Lincoln,

Quote

"A compass, I learned when I was surveying, it'll point you true north from where you're standing but it's got no advice about the swamps & deserts & chasms that you'll encounter along the way. If in pursuit of your destination, you plunge ahead heedless of obstacles & achieve nothing more than to sink in a swamp, what's the use of knowing true north?"

We need more intel on CW before we can plan anything in detail.