118 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 04 November 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I know you would, because you're a competitive player and thus looking for any advantage.

Unfortunately, quirks are specifically for bringing non-'competitive' options up, instead of making the already-accepted options better.

Thus, no reason for the K2 to get ballistic quirks instead of PPC ones.

PPCs aren't competitive, though. Not anymore, at least. You need jump-jets for them to be useful. The K2 doesn't have jump-jets. Thus they don't belong on the 'mech.

Look, I don't make these rules. I just play the game. And the players that play the game tell everyone that PPCs need jets to be competitive on a heavy 'mech.

Otherwise, why take a K2 over a Cataphract? There's no reason. You can't even synergize PPCs + ACs properly on a K2 because... well, it needs jets to do that.

Thus, there's no reason in my eyes, as a competitive player, to ever want to use PPCs on a K2.

IF, for some freak reason, PPCs lost ghost heat and allowed you to run three again (it'll never happen but oh was it overpowered and glorious--and made me sick to my stomach after a month or two of it), then the K2 and PPCs would be in a better spot--but not much... because PPCs have that close range penalty, slow speed and heat.

[Elizander]

I believe that part of the flaw in the process is the attempt to make each variant unique within its weight class so they spread out quirks to make sure that none of them are too similar.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 04 November 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

The really sad thing is that a stock-ish CN9-A build (AC10, 2xML, 2xLRM5, add AMS/DHS/Endo) is actually pretty darn decent and can strike at any range. But people won't even consider it because it's a 'bracket build' and apparently crap because it's not boating only two types of weapon systems.

I love my old mostly stock CN9-D, and A. the AL needed a little tweaking though for me. But i like Big Guns on my Centys, not so much "pew pew".

[Macksheen]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

CN9-AL
Cuz that resembles it's intended use so well, right?

vs how I would rather run it, myself: CN9-AL

Nah, this is clearly the build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2d20fdbf7b29d02

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 04 November 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

So where is the patch, btw?

8 minutes away, because it's pretty much always at noon 10am PST?

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Ugh. And the myth of the ZOmbie has always neutered the Centy. In reality all it did was perpetuate bad play in them as it was people who never learned to twist enough to protect their right arm. I know you love Cents as much as I do. I have almost without fail ran big guns in the RA of them, and always done well. YLW has always been one of my top chassis.

I ran a triple-ASRM6 CN9-A for a long time, but always felt it was handicapped by not having any reach at all. Lately I've been running my A with an almost-stock AC/10 and triple ALRM-5s.

As for the Zombie Cent Myth, it is a myth now but it wasn't always. It's the only 'mech I've killed in while under 10% health myself, and it did have those outrageously large arm debris chunks. The hitbox redesign really killed the zombie thing though.

Fun fact: The CN9-A is also the only 'mech in which I've killed two enemy 'mechs at the same time; one with my main gun (AC/10 in the right arm, as proper) and one with my CT lasers. IIRC it was one of those "twist right, aim left" moments that the CN9-A instilled in its pilots

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I can almost understand the AH packing them. It makes some sense to simply convert it to an in your face city fighting brawler with it's AC20. But in all other Centies, it should be LRMs.

Again, agreed. No CN9 I know of comes with SRMs stock, so why is it so good a SRM platform to get chassis quirks for it?

[Jonathan Paine]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Everyone that doesn't focus on the Chassis Stock design considerations FIRST, and Comp/Meta Builds second.

All focusing the Quirks on "Meta Builds" does is force the mechs to run down narrow roads to be "optimal" whereas if they focused on it the otherway, instead of trying to tie their viability to an ever changing Meta, they would increase build diversity.

*snip*

But by doing them like this, you get to build and play at top benefit the closer you run it to stock, and STILL get to buff the "optimal" builds, TOO, instead of just forcing everyone to run the Comp Builds to benefit.

First of all, hail Russ for an interesting attempt at improving mechs that does not work well within MWO.

Second, heck yeah Bishop. The tweak system works at its best when it double buffs the stock loadout, while single buffing generic. Good reason to play the mech "as is", while still lending a competitive advantage for the players who cant live without.

[kapusta11]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

8 minutes away, because it's pretty much always at noon 10am PST?

Oh thanks, it's already 8pm in my time zone so I was wondering.

[Macksheen]

stjobe, on 04 November 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Again, agreed. No CN9 I know of comes with SRMs stock, so why is it so good a SRM platform to get chassis quirks for it?

Because Griffin.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

PPCs aren't competitive, though. Not anymore, at least.

And that dude, is the problem for building the quirks around the MEta.

How long WERE PPCs the go to gun? But eventually that changed. At some point, the ballistics will be hit. Be it (please god no) changing them to burst fire or the clans, matters not. Building the quirks to carter purely for the current Meta, when Metas are EVER CHANGING is short sighted.

And even in the short term it merely forces everyone to run the same build which does not enhance the actually viability of the chassis, it just reinforced the current Meta.

By boosting the capabilities of the weapons they are supposed to run FIRST, with secondary more general quirks as a nod to comp and meta, it enhances the mechs viability in multiple builds, including the Meta, and what's more has it more capable of staying viable when the Meta DOES invariably shift.

And this, my friend, is why I am against Russ listening to the Comp Crowd so all inclusively. Too often, you guys can get myopic focus on "what helps me win right now" at the expense of what might be needed 6 months from now. We can't have them flipping quirks every time the Meta shifts, so the Quirks need to be thought out for the "greater" good, and overall long term usefulness, of the entire chassis.

Not just the one build the Comp Crowd wants, ATM.

kapusta11, on 04 November 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Oh thanks, it's already 8pm in my time zone so I was wondering.

de nada bro!

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

PPCs aren't competitive, though. Not anymore, at least.

Yes, this is exactly why the K2 should be getting PPC buffs.

K2 = PPC Platform
PPC = Not competitive
K2 Quirks = Buff PPCs

Since the 'competitive' K2 build (or as close to 'competitive' as it gets) is the ballistic one, then it shouldn't get buffs for it because it's already the 'best' build.

[Mavairo]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

PPCs aren't competitive, though. Not anymore, at least. You need jump-jets for them to be useful. The K2 doesn't have jump-jets. Thus they don't belong on the 'mech.

Look, I don't make these rules. I just play the game. And the players that play the game tell everyone that PPCs need jets to be competitive on a heavy 'mech.

Otherwise, why take a K2 over a Cataphract? There's no reason. You can't even synergize PPCs + ACs properly on a K2 because... well, it needs jets to do that.

Thus, there's no reason in my eyes, as a competitive player, to ever want to use PPCs on a K2.

IF, for some freak reason, PPCs lost ghost heat and allowed you to run three again (it'll never happen but oh was it overpowered and glorious--and made me sick to my stomach after a month or two of it), then the K2 and PPCs would be in a better spot--but not much... because PPCs have that close range penalty, slow speed and heat.

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

PPCs aren't competitive, though. Not anymore, at least. You need jump-jets for them to be useful. The K2 doesn't have jump-jets. Thus they don't belong on the 'mech.

Look, I don't make these rules. I just play the game. And the players that play the game tell everyone that PPCs need jets to be competitive on a heavy 'mech.

Otherwise, why take a K2 over a Cataphract? There's no reason. You can't even synergize PPCs + ACs properly on a K2 because... well, it needs jets to do that.

Thus, there's no reason in my eyes, as a competitive player, to ever want to use PPCs on a K2.

IF, for some freak reason, PPCs lost ghost heat and allowed you to run three again (it'll never happen but oh was it overpowered and glorious--and made me sick to my stomach after a month or two of it), then the K2 and PPCs would be in a better spot--but not much... because PPCs have that close range penalty, slow speed and heat.

It's PGI's job to make them worth taking on the K2. A quicker velocity and less heat would go along way to buffing the K2's PPCs. Which are supposed to be there in the first place.

PGI's job is to bring unoptimal loadouts into the front and center, making them optimal. Especially when they follow lore.

Why take a PPC K2 over a phract? Simple, it's a much faster mech. It's PPCs are high mounted instead of low slung.
If they fired faster and had longer range (leave the AWS as the PPC king with it's faster cycle, cooling) that'd be plenty reason. A K2 can also safely mount an XL making it even quicker still than a Phract, where XL = death trap.

Also JJ suck. have you not caught the memo? JJ are the single worst waste of tonnage going.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

8 minutes away, because it's pretty much always at noon 10am PST?

I thought about that one, but ghost heat, lol.

Macksheen, on 04 November 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Because Griffin.

which are all almost run SRM heavy too.

[HlynkaCG]

That Guy, on 04 November 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

the CN9-A getting all SRM-4 quirks

none of the firestarters getting flamer quirks.

This ^

Also the apparent lack of more generic and movement based quirks. For instance lore-wise the Quickdraw is supposed to be incredibly agile, it would have been nice to see something in the quirks to reflect this.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 04 November 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Mavairo, on 04 November 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Also JJ suck. have you not caught the memo? JJ are the single worst waste of tonnage going.

LOL okay. Keep telling yourself that.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 04 November 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yes, this is exactly why the K2 should be getting PPC buffs.

K2 = PPC Platform
PPC = Not competitive
K2 Quirks = Buff PPCs

Since the 'competitive' K2 build (or as close to 'competitive' as it gets) is the ballistic one, then it shouldn't get buffs for it because it's already the 'best' build.

But it isn't the "best" build. They are "okay" builds that get the job done but there are other 'mechs that are picked every single time over the K2 due to various advantages. The K2 isn't a tier 1 'mech. It is maybe... tier 3. That is even with ballistic weapons.

Now it USED to be tier 1... a looooong time ago. But that's before it was nerfed into the ground and the Cataphract took over--and the Jager was spawned.

[Mothykins]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

PPCs aren't competitive, though. Not anymore, at least. You need jump-jets for them to be useful. The K2 doesn't have jump-jets. Thus they don't belong on the 'mech.

Look, I don't make these rules. I just play the game. And the players that play the game tell everyone that PPCs need jets to be competitive on a heavy 'mech.

Otherwise, why take a K2 over a Cataphract? There's no reason. You can't even synergize PPCs + ACs properly on a K2 because... well, it needs jets to do that.

Thus, there's no reason in my eyes, as a competitive player, to ever want to use PPCs on a K2.

IF, for some freak reason, PPCs lost ghost heat and allowed you to run three again (it'll never happen but oh was it overpowered and glorious--and made me sick to my stomach after a month or two of it), then the K2 and PPCs would be in a better spot--but not much... because PPCs have that close range penalty, slow speed and heat.

So, uh.

The Guass + PPC direwhales aren't a thing? Those never happened? Or did the Dires suddenly gain jumpjets while I wasn't looking.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Not just the one build the Comp Crowd wants, ATM.

The K2 isn't a comp 'mech at the moment. It wants to be. But it isn't. The Jager and 3D have several serious advantages over the K2. Making PPCs better on the K2 won't make it comp.

Cavale, on 04 November 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

So, uh.

The Guass + PPC direwhales aren't a thing? Those never happened? Or did the Dires suddenly gain jumpjets while I wasn't looking.

They are a "thing." That's about all they are. A "thing." There's other ways to do a Whale, ya know?

[MoonfireSpam]

I will second (third or fourth) the Dragon - Flame AC20 quirk. The thing can barely carry an AC20 anyways since it's in the ST. Was toying around with several builds involving normal engines, but it just seems like it would be a big slow ass target with that giant honking nose.

[Mothykins]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

They are a "thing." That's about all they are. A "thing." There's other ways to do a Whale, ya know?

Generally speaking, the PPC + Gauss is better than the dakka whale, tbqh.

Your other builds are what, x2 LBX20 x1 LBXac10 and x2 ASRM6, and the Laser Vomit midrange?

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

But it isn't the "best" build. They are "okay" builds that get the job done but there are other 'mechs that are picked every single time over the K2 due to various advantages. The K2 isn't a tier 1 'mech. It is maybe... tier 3. That is even with ballistic weapons.

Now it USED to be tier 1... a looooong time ago. But that's before it was nerfed into the ground and the Cataphract took over--and the Jager was spawned.

Yes, and this is exactly why the PPC quirks are what it should get. It's both the stock loadout AND it buffs a 'not the best' build for the chassis.