76 replies to this topic

[Captain Stiffy]

Carrioncrows, on 04 November 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Sorry but the quirks is one of their best idea's.

Yes it means if I want to get the most out of those quirks it involves elevating my gameplay by changing up some of the builds I am comfortable with.

But it also rewards me for doing that.

And the beauty of it is that even if I don't want to change it I am not penalized for doing so, most of the time the mechs got a flat out increase that they didn't have before that makes the builds that much better.

I'm mostly on this page with it. I do agree with some sentiments the OP said but certain mechs like the YLW definitely really badly needed this.

[SoggyGorilla]

been playing with the new quirks. i havent noticed a big difference in much of my games. now some of the worthless mechs got some love. good change. i like to seeing a varity of mechs to kill.

[Mavairo]

I hope the diversity that was seen last night continues strongly with these quirks.

I was seeing AWSs man... AWSes!

And they were actually powerful enough to be intimidating.

[Ultimax]

Water Bear, on 05 November 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

I thought about this, and I can't quite figure out why just buffing Inner Sphere weapons isn't at least as good an idea as giving mech's quirks. It forces certain builds on some mechs, so perhaps that's something they wanted to do, but if your goal is to bring IS DPS in line with Clan DPS, then the shortest route to doing that is to just buff IS weapons.

If they only buffed the weapons that buffs the faction as a whole but the mechs that were better designed remain much better than mechs that were not. So the "bad" mechs do not improve relative to the "good mechs".


By buffing with quirks directly into the mechs, they can create role space for each mech and give them greater power in that role to make up for deficiencies that mech already has (bad hitboxes, bad geometry, poor hardpoint allotment or location, etc).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 November 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

Captain Stiffy, on 05 November 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

I'm mostly on this page with it. I do agree with some sentiments the OP said but certain mechs like the YLW definitely really badly needed this.

Don't get me wrong there are some variants with quirks that just don't make sense to me. But all in all I like everything done.

[UrsusMorologus]

James DeGriz, on 05 November 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

It doesn't force certain builds, it encourages them.

Start with a T5 mech, worst of the worst, give it weapon buffs that supposed to make it competitive with T2, then you effectively have a toggle between T5 and T2 that is determined by loadout

You dont have to use it, in the same way that you dont technically have to get any kills or win any points

Water Bear, on 05 November 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

I thought about this, and I can't quite figure out why just buffing Inner Sphere weapons isn't at least as good an idea as giving mech's quirks. It forces certain builds on some mechs, so perhaps that's something they wanted to do, but if your goal is to bring IS DPS in line with Clan DPS, then the shortest route to doing that is to just buff IS weapons.

If you buffed weapons then the buffs would be applied across the good chassis as well, making the good chassis even more powerful.

The whole balance issue here (need to bring IS mechs closer to clan mechs) is that the IS mechs are generally suck. That is what needs to be addressed for balance to be achieved. Quirks that buff the chassis would fix it, things like higher engine cap, improved reverse speed, smaller hit-boxes, basic things like that to make the chassis better are the actual fix to the actual problem. Weapon buffs are a waste of time.

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 05 November 2014 - 09:14 AM.

[DasSibby]

I'd have a problem with the quirks IF they restricted the customization TO those weapons in the quirks.

As it stands it just grands bonuses to those builds, with out taking anything away from your crazy builds! (Noisy Crickets anyone?)

So. I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. :/

[Ultimax]

UrsusMorologus, on 05 November 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Start with a T5 mech, worst of the worst, give it weapon buffs that supposed to make it competitive with T2, then you effectively have a toggle between T5 and T2 that is determined by loadout

You dont have to use it, in the same way that you dont technically have to get any kills or win any points


If you buffed weapons then the buffs would be applied across the good chassis as well, making the good chassis even more powerful.

The whole balance issue here (need to bring IS mechs closer to clan mechs) is that the IS mechs are generally suck. That is what needs to be addressed for balance to be achieved. Quirks that buff the chassis would fix it, things like higher engine cap, improved reverse speed, smaller hit-boxes, basic things like that to make the chassis better are the actual fix to the actual problem. Weapon buffs are a waste of time.

Smaller hitboxes is a massive undertaking - it requires completely re-designing the models.

It is costly and it will take a very, very long time - quirks is something they were able to implement very quickly and is cost effective.

On top of that, PGI is rightly trying to stay true to the Artwork for these mechs that has existed for decades.


Russ explains this very well in the Dev Vlog 9.



Hit Boxes being "good" or "bad" is irrelevant in TT, you roll dice to see where you hit.

In a real time FPS, those Hit Boxes suddenly have a huge effect on a mech's playability - but as I said they are trying to stay true to the artwork for these mechs.



For other items such as speed & movement Russ has already said that could come in a later pass - this is just an initial pass. There will be more updates and tweaks.

[UrsusMorologus]

Ultimatum X, on 05 November 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Smaller hitboxes is a massive undertaking - it requires completely re-designing the models.

It is costly and it will take a very, very long time - quirks is something they were able to implement very quickly and is cost effective.

On top of that, PGI is rightly trying to stay true to the Artwork for these mechs that has existed for decades.


Russ explains this very well in the Dev Vlog 9.



Hit Boxes being "good" or "bad" is irrelevant in TT, you roll dice to see where you hit.

In a real time FPS, those Hit Boxes suddenly have a huge effect on a mech's playability - but as I said they are trying to stay true to the artwork for these mechs.



For other items such as speed & movement Russ has already said that could come in a later pass - this is just an initial pass. There will be more updates and tweaks.

Hitboxes are separate from the [visual] model, its another skin but it is not rendered (like the invisible hitboxes around buildings) so it is not contingent on redesign. Look at this post for example. They just gave a quirk to increase leg strength, but the legs still have huge hitboxes. Dunno... maybe fix the hitboxes first?

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 05 November 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Xtrekker]

Personally I thought the quirk system was intended to reinforce intended design, function, and role (i.e. stock) and make it a viable loadout. I loved that idea. It gave you a basic template of what your mech should be, but still allowed you to experiment with other equally effective builds. Instead they reinforced the effective builds and made stock functionality that much less appealing in some cases. Watching the Dev Blog #9 though Russ made it clear that he wanted to encourage the min-max meta because that is what he feels competitive MechWarrior should be, which ironically has been repeatedly shown to destroy gameplay in previous MechWarrior titles. The quirks are taken from "competitive builds", which we all know changes month to month. What happens when they nerf X weapon next month? Guess what, that new quirky mech is now unused again.

I'm not a stock player. I absolutely love the mechlab. But I do think that much of the Battletech feeling is lost when you cram "competitive" flavor into every mech. Yes, of course that has to be done if you want to compete. And yes, being able to stick familiar things that you know works into seldom used mechs will make them more fun to the shooter types who have inventory sitting around. I thought PGI was looking for an imaginative way around that so that you would have a reason to enjoy Battletech. Nope, they wanted to find a way to make every mech a potential revenue stream. Flavor makes more money than soul.

I could almost see quirks performance packages being introduced as something purchasable (C-bill or MC), like Brawler/Skirmisher/Support Retrofits. This might encourage the purchase of multiple mechs of the same chassis/model so that you could tune a drop deck with multiple roles in mind in your favorite chassis. Same effect, more varied use, more potential for fun experimentation, more opportunities to sell stuff. Imaginative implementation.

I think the OP has some legitimate concerns. Quirks aren't very imaginative. If you are not sporting that meta build, yes, people automatically discount you as a "terribad" and some are pretty vocal about it. And now we are reinforcing that. Hell, just look at the way some of you have responded in this thread...

Just my 2 cents.

[James DeGriz]

UrsusMorologus, on 05 November 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Start with a T5 mech, worst of the worst, give it weapon buffs that supposed to make it competitive with T2, then you effectively have a toggle between T5 and T2 that is determined by loadout

You dont have to use it, in the same way that you dont technically have to get any kills or win any points


If you buffed weapons then the buffs would be applied across the good chassis as well, making the good chassis even more powerful.

If any of the quirks turn a T5 in to a T2, then yes you would probably by right. I'm pretty sure that getting an 8Q to spew out more PPCs, or giving a Dragon 5N a faster fire rate on AC2s isn't going to elevate those mechs with their borked hit boxes and all the other things that makes them so unpopular up to the heady heights of a Phract 3D. It might make them more appealing for the people that like them for reasons beyond their performance and give those people a reason to run them and not be utterly frustrated every time they do, but that's really it.

All these quirks do is give those dusty old mechs that you bought and no longer use for whatever reason a chance for you to have fun with them again without automatically selling them. That's all. Remember too, that this is the first pass of quirks, so any quirks that dropped yesterday are likely to come under review, meaning that some of the stranger choices will get tweaked.

[UrsusMorologus]

James DeGriz, on 05 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Remember too, that this is the first pass of quirks, so any quirks that dropped yesterday are likely to come under review, meaning that some of the stranger choices will get tweaked.

Completely specious... They arent going to spend the effort on a comprehensive balance pass now, when the whole point of quirking was to avoid a comprehensive balance pass in the first place, and everything is now much more complex. Broken stuff is more likely to remain broken because its baked into the tier number and the quirk was supposed to fix it. Short of doing an actual balance pass that, the most likely outcome is they will tweak some values and call it done.

[James DeGriz]

UrsusMorologus, on 05 November 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Completely specious... They arent going to spend the effort on a comprehensive balance pass now, when the whole point of quirking was to avoid a comprehensive balance pass in the first place, and everything is now much more complex. Broken stuff is more likely to remain broken because its baked into the tier number and the quirk was supposed to fix it. Short of doing an actual balance pass that, the most likely outcome is they will tweak some values and call it done.

No, not specious at all. Listen to the Vlog #9. Comes straight from the horses, (or at least the Bullocks) mouth.

The quirk was not supposed to "fix" broken mechs, as I said in the paragraph you chose not to quote. They're just there to give players a reason to play them; an LBX10 quirk isn't going to turn the CN9-D into a ShadowHawk, but people who like playing Cents will now feel that their favourite mech is a little more viable going into a match. And that is a Good Thing.

But hey, who am I to see the positive in a change, or at least try and understand what the devs set out to try and achieve with it. You go right ahead an pick holes in it, because you of course know best.

[UrsusMorologus]

James DeGriz, on 05 November 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

No, not specious at all. Listen to the Vlog #9. Comes straight from the horses, (or at least the Bullocks) mouth.

The quirk was not supposed to "fix" broken mechs, as I said in the paragraph you chose not to quote. They're just there to give players a reason to play them; an LBX10 quirk isn't going to turn the CN9-D into a ShadowHawk, but people who like playing Cents will now feel that their favourite mech is a little more viable going into a match. And that is a Good Thing.

But hey, who am I to see the positive in a change, or at least try and understand what the devs set out to try and achieve with it. You go right ahead an pick holes in it, because you of course know best.

Well then you guys ought to get your stories straight because the guy I replied to insisted that they would be reviewing it and fixing the few remaining balance issues. And its interesting that you defend that argument in one breath by saying its not specious, then rolling out a whole different argument that the original argument wasnt the point anyway.

So I dunno maybe come up with something that isnt self contradicting and send you to the fainting couch when its shot down

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 05 November 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[Ultimax]

UrsusMorologus, on 05 November 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Hitboxes are separate from the [visual] model, its another skin but it is not rendered

No.

Hit Boxes are linked to the physical geometry of the mech.

The devs have tweaked where Hit Boxes might start and end on a mech, and that can sometimes make a mech more XL friendly or less XL friendly.

That can limit or enhance a mech. The Stalker being one of the least XL unfriendly mechs due to its hitboxes, becomes a STD Engine damage sink that benefits from being awful using XL.



However nothing short of completely redesigning the model will change the physical size of the Awesome. It's easy hit, from almost any angle. They can move the hitboxes around, but ultimately the mech has a lot of issues that go far beyond even geometry.

Hardpoints, reliance on energy, several variants capped at 300 engines, etc.



Directly boosting the Awesome allowed them to create a reason to play all the variants and not just the best variants.

It gave reasons to run different weapons on different variants.

It gives some of those variants their classic role of being "best" with the PPC.


Directly buffing PPCs would not have achieved those things.

[UrsusMorologus]

Ultimatum X, on 05 November 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

The devs have tweaked where Hit Boxes might start and end on a mech, and that can sometimes make a mech more XL friendly or less XL friendly.

That can limit or enhance a mech. The Stalker being one of the least XL unfriendly mechs due to its hitboxes, becomes a STD Engine damage sink that benefits from being awful using XL.

However nothing short of completely redesigning the model will change the physical size of the Awesome. It's easy hit, from almost any angle. They can move the hitboxes around, but ultimately the mech has a lot of issues that go far beyond even geometry.

So your argument is that the Awesome needs a new model therefore no other chassis can benefit from hitbox tweaking?

Hitboxes can be modified independently of the visual model. Changes to hitbox are one possible tweak among many that can be made as part of comprehensive balance review. Your argument doesnt refute either of those facts.

[SixstringSamurai]

Looks at 8 SPL Firestarter.

Reads OP.

Laughs.