Did anyone see the press on this? Early access Hawken was really fun... low TTK, very unforgiving, very intense, good role specific 'bots... and it was HARD.The guy who created LoL bought into the game... that's when it went pear shaped; a good game becomes a good business... uncle moneybags from LoL tried to make it happen in reverse... it failed.
I don't know what is "early" in Hawken but I was there before the big P2W update and just before the overpowered Technician (a Healer mech!!) arrived and there were test servers running with 12 players for each team. While the 6 vs. 6 was smoother, 12 v 12 was certainly chaotic.
I don't think the game has any depth at all, but it was great fun, and there is a sense of fluidity that MWO lacked. I still can't get over the fun I have throwing grenades at corners where enemy mechs are trying to heal.
I don't know what is "early" in Hawken but I was there before the big P2W update and just before the overpowered Technician (a Healer mech!!) arrived and there were test servers running with 12 players for each team. While the 6 vs. 6 was smoother, 12 v 12 was certainly chaotic.
I don't think the game has any depth at all, but it was great fun, and there is a sense of fluidity that MWO lacked. I still can't get over the fun I have throwing grenades at corners where enemy mechs are trying to heal.
Download the game adhesive ripped off to make hawken.
It is interesting to analyze the failures of the other mech games.
1. Hawken --- I find this really fun to play with. What killed it is that it lacks a true MMO infrastructure that brings the players together in one (or few servers) then settle them in matches using a matchmaker. The system that you see in LoL, WoT, War Thunder and MWO really works. It is like a heart that circulates players into finding quick games instead of long waits. Another failure of Hawken is that it fails to properly exploit the micropayment ecosystem that is essential for keeping F2P games alive. No income, no developers to make future content, which drops the interest and causes players to live. F2P games require a steady stream of content, but development of such has to be matched with an income base.
2. Armored Core --- This franchise for me has the best and most memorable single player campaigns I ever enjoyed in a mech game. I especially love the online only mode where four players face up to a monster boss mech or machine, seen in Armored Core V. This series had everything --- attention to detail, modularity and infinite configuration, tons of great maps, even a working system of community warfare (based on Chromehounds, which is also made by the same developers). But what killed it is because it is a console game, tied to console type ecosystems that are ultimately unsustainable and require big publishers to approve and finance each game release. The lack of an MMO ecosystem means it cannot consolidate players into matches, and the lack of an F2P freemium system means it cannot function as an independent, with a self sustaining revenue stream that can finance further content development. Having a meager player base divided along XBox and Playstation lines adds to the dilemna. Plus the very fact that these developers (FromSoftware) hit the gold mine with the Dark Souls franchise means their attention is going to be drawn in making more Dark Souls games. Likewise, we cannot expect another Chromehounds title as well.
So that is what essentially MWO got basically right --- a self sustaining MMO/MOBA infrastructure that pumps players into matches with an F2P Freemium ecosystem that finances content development. An important quality of this success is that the player base is unfragmented.
So what happens if another mech game assumes an MMO/MOBA player matchmaker system with an F2P Freemium ecosystem support. That is what interests me with Project HON, since its creators, NCSoft, has been hosting successful MMOs.
HON for me already fails when I look at it, because all I see is human movement disguised in a mech skeleton. And so it already fails being a mechgame, it just doesn't looks or feels like a mechgame by looking at it.
another nice thing.
Vassago Rain, on 04 January 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:
games can always fail, they are not like companies having true vital aspects or reallife infrastructure they are necessary for.
epic trailer, I see big robots stomping and pilots controlling them
Yet what hawken is:
not big and stompy as the trailer suggests, starting from 2:00 when they go up the ramp and that robot does the left right dodging, WOW, thats so much fail, neither would physics allow this to such an object nor would any pilot if cokpits look like in the trailer above survive this. His head would bounce the walls and he would fall into a coma or even bleed out. If hawken would had delivere what the trailer suggests, but somehow I doubt it ever will. Why does the pilot even bounce that much in relation to the cockpit? don't they have any safety belts?
And this is for me where some games fail, when they simulate something just poorly making it feel more ridiculous and nonsense than actually simulating something it should try to simulate.
Transformers goes into that list as well, sure they look awesome, and the transforming part is cool, yet they play more like soldiers battling when in robotic state than real mechs or robts and this is again where a game fails diversity, becaue "human behaviour" shooters are out there more than anyone can count.
MWO or mechwarrior is one of the only serious giving a good and semi scifi realistic robofeeling at all. Even with an canon universe form ages ago where our tech today says: "ouch how outdated". But the universe and robofeelings always have been there because they feel at least how a robot of that size would realistically behave if it would exist.
Mechwarrior feels like it always have been the only true mechgame ever. All those asian mecha ripoff awesome sytle running and gunning around robots, mechs, suits or whatever never felt realistic in their behaviour for the size they have or had.
Titanfall I think had at least mechs looking god and feeling good for their size, but the rest was badly done, and why the hell cna a single solider with his hands rip off a plate and shoot internals, What stupid engineer would build a mech like that? That is where titanfall heavily failed, because those titans were nonsense by what they were. Also the way how easily another titan could rip off a pilot out of another chassis was stupid as well. The world and universe of titanfall had massive issues of "logical inconsistence".
stompy robots seem only existent in MWO currently, that is what I actually would say makes MWO unique and the only true mech game.
otherwise tell me which game really adds the feeling of being a big robot behaving as it truly would and should?
Edited by Lily from animove, 05 January 2015 - 05:47 AM.
Robots are supposed to be humanoid, or at least human or animal structure expressed in machine form. That is the ONE realism a mech game must have, that you have both Human and Mechanical attributes. When you factor that, Mecha are supposed to fight like Infantry, because that is how you fight with limbs and legs. That is the one thing what Asian mecha (which Battletech often copied from), Hawken, Heavy Gear, to Titanfall all succeeded with. They fail for other reasons and its not because of inferior game play.
Your Battlemechs are currently work like what? Walking tanks. Only the legs have some form of animal/human attribute. The arms are just like fixed, forward, walking like a mummy or a zombie. Even when real life theorist are planning the use of mechanically assisted (exoskeleton for now) infantry, the whole concept is to fight like infantry, not like a walking zombie tank. Which is kind of funny really. And stupid.
If you ever really played a tank game, you will see why pure tanks with threads might actually be far superior than walking tanks. They are much lower, much harder to hit. They can maker superior use of the terrain to hide, peek and boom. They can put themselves in a situation where only the hardest part of the tank, the turret, is exposed and angled in a way to maximize deflection. While tracks are also as fragile as legs, guess what, they are field repairable, and a broken leg remains a broken leg.
When you have a 70 ton mech, why do you have to divide weapons into three or four, or five or six and situate them in different parts of the body? Each weapon will have to be small, has limited damage and range, and when they are destroyed they take part of the mech with it. Not to mentiont transfer their heat issues into the mech frame itself. That is why you need to "group" weapons to get a high "alpha". Not to mention some weapons are in the mummy like straight arms that are situated lower in the torso and won't clear enviromental obstacles. If you want to peek and shoot, a greater part of the mech has to clear the corner or the hump, which exposes more of the mech towards enemy fire and loses the surprise element as well. Neither can you withdraw back into the safe place as fast (you can do this so much more efficiently in a true tank or infantry soldier). Lets not mention the zombie stance also means facing your big fat torso to the enemy as a big target with minimal or absent shell deflection.
What if you have a 70 ton mech, and you only have ONE weapon. One honking weapon that looks like a massive rifle that is like half of the mech's height. That single weapon is going to be far more powerful with a far greater range (like an AC60 with an ER PPC range). The mech can hold the rifle cannon at shoulder's height, so it can clear obstacles, and while holding it in firing position, minimize its frontal profile, not exposing your huge chest towards the enemy to shoot at. It can peek through corners like a soldier, or go prone like a sniper. If the weapon is broken, simply grab another. If the weapon is destroyed, it won't take part of the mech with it. Ammo is loaded into the weapon itself, so if it gets hit, it won't be exploding inside the mech. And if it overheats, well yeah, only the weapon is jammed, but the mech is still alive and moving (in Hawken, overheating weapons means only weapons jammed, not shutdown mechs).
Our GI mech will simply be a far far superior proposition than a "battlemech". And by the way, the BT Battlemech is just following all those older Japanese big robot cartoons where they have lasers, missile and cannons embedded in their chests, like the "shooting my boobs" Aphrodite from Mazinger Z. The Japanese only thought how eventually stupid this idea was and went for more realistic mechs like you see in Gundam, Macross and Dougram, the last two series where many early designs of battlemechs are from.
Robots are supposed to be humanoid, or at least human or animal structure expressed in machine form. That is the ONE realism a mech game must have, that you have both Human and Mechanical attributes. When you factor that, Mecha are supposed to fight like Infantry, because that is how you fight with limbs and legs. That is the one thing what Asian mecha (which Battletech often copied from), Hawken, Heavy Gear, to Titanfall all succeeded with. They fail for other reasons and its not because of inferior game play.
Your Battlemechs are currently work like what? Walking tanks. Only the legs have some form of animal/human attribute. The arms are just like fixed, forward, walking like a mummy or a zombie. Even when real life theorist are planning the use of mechanically assisted (exoskeleton for now) infantry, the whole concept is to fight like infantry, not like a walking zombie tank. Which is kind of funny really. And stupid.
If you ever really played a tank game, you will see why pure tanks with threads might actually be far superior than walking tanks. They are much lower, much harder to hit. They can maker superior use of the terrain to hide, peek and boom. They can put themselves in a situation where only the hardest part of the tank, the turret, is exposed and angled in a way to maximize deflection. While tracks are also as fragile as legs, guess what, they are field repairable, and a broken leg remains a broken leg.
When you have a 70 ton mech, why do you have to divide weapons into three or four, or five or six and situate them in different parts of the body? Each weapon will have to be small, has limited damage and range, and when they are destroyed they take part of the mech with it. Not to mentiont transfer their heat issues into the mech frame itself. That is why you need to "group" weapons to get a high "alpha". Not to mention some weapons are in the mummy like straight arms that are situated lower in the torso and won't clear enviromental obstacles. If you want to peek and shoot, a greater part of the mech has to clear the corner or the hump, which exposes more of the mech towards enemy fire and loses the surprise element as well. Neither can you withdraw back into the safe place as fast (you can do this so much more efficiently in a true tank or infantry soldier). Lets not mention the zombie stance also means facing your big fat torso to the enemy as a big target with minimal or absent shell deflection.
What if you have a 70 ton mech, and you only have ONE weapon. One honking weapon that looks like a massive rifle that is like half of the mech's height. That single weapon is going to be far more powerful with a far greater range (like an AC60 with an ER PPC range). The mech can hold the rifle cannon at shoulder's height, so it can clear obstacles, and while holding it in firing position, minimize its frontal profile, not exposing your huge chest towards the enemy to shoot at. It can peek through corners like a soldier, or go prone like a sniper. If the weapon is broken, simply grab another. If the weapon is destroyed, it won't take part of the mech with it. Ammo is loaded into the weapon itself, so if it gets hit, it won't be exploding inside the mech. And if it overheats, well yeah, only the weapon is jammed, but the mech is still alive and moving (in Hawken, overheating weapons means only weapons jammed, not shutdown mechs).
Our GI mech will simply be a far far superior proposition than a "battlemech". And by the way, the BT Battlemech is just following all those older Japanese big robot cartoons where they have lasers, missile and cannons embedded in their chests, like the "shooting my boobs" Aphrodite from Mazinger Z. The Japanese only thought how eventually stupid this idea was and went for more realistic mechs like you see in Gundam, Macross and Dougram, the last two series where many early designs of battlemechs are from.
Nonsense, total nonsense, the term mecha refers to something mechanical, even a car is by definition something mecha. Not even the term "robot" has anything to do with "human". Maybe you should first see what the terms "mecha" and "robot" means
Further if you make a giant humanoid mech/robot, you still can not give it human like behavior, because physics and stuff do not apply to the same degree, japanese went for "realistic mechs" lol, yeah giant mass instant changing directions, with all thee swiftness. Physics would like to have a word with your "realism".
So no, the old japanese was not stupid, having a big gun in the center is the best way of how to add a gun physics wise, on a shoulder the gun fired would have a lot more issues with physics again. Bets location is the center of the mass or even below to distribute the recoil energy to the ground. Exception would be Lasers sicne they have no recoil, but funnily many new japanese "humanoid mechs" still have recoil with oversized lasers LOL, yeha realism, again?
All the new japanese stuff violtes any physics and then it looks weird unrealistic and just sucks.
Yeah mechs of battletech are like big walking tanks, because that is what the size and mass together with their shape would cause on such a big piece of metal and electronics.
Yes make a giant solder of metal, carrying a weapon, do you even know what physics would apply? what inertenss and forces would apply on a 25m robot wielding a sniperrifle? An chassis integrated version closer to the center and turnpoint is the much correcter physical concept to build such a mech.
Modern, japanese Mechs making all these instant stops and turns causing every pilots inner organs being crushed by the forces applying to them. Gundam, LOL how do these things even fly by science and physics. ROFL, more realistic. Or do I miss the irony in your post?
That does not only look weird that is wong and can not ever create a consitent universe or true immersion. That is for japanese who like all that supernatural stuff like Dragonall and such, be a cool thing, but many people like me, just don't like this, it makes no sense, it does not create a real mech game or simulation. I have not touched all thes egames exactly because of this, because it looks wrong, and it felt wrong in the few games I played. Next time you get a real big paket, just put the giant shaped box in front of you and run to see how air resistence already on this shape and size counters you. Yet you go with a supersized robot.
Probably all the todays anime/manga artists had a nice sudying in painting but horribly sucked in physics, and this is the result of all that.
Sci fi is science fiction, its a mixture of both, fiction and science, but when you constantly violate the most basics of the science, stuff gets just too stupid. Most japanese mechagenres and games just fail here. as an anime its ok, its just soemthing you watch, but playing this causes 0 immersion being a mech game.
Your post is a lot more a LOL post because it seems you missed physics in school. Or maybe you havent even had them yet.
Edited by Lily from animove, 06 January 2015 - 02:28 AM.
Lily from animove, on 06 January 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:
Nonsense, total nonsense, the term mecha refers to something mechanical, even a car is by definition something mecha. Not even the term "robot" has anything to do with "human". Maybe you should first see what the terms "mecha" and "robot" means
Further if you make a giant humanoid mech/robot, you still can not give it human like behavior, because physics and stuff do not apply to the same degree, japanese went for "realistic mechs" lol, yeah giant mass instant changing directions, with all thee swiftness. Physics would like to have a word with your "realism".
So no, the old japanese was not stupid, having a big gun in the center is the best way of how to add a gun physics wise, on a shoulder the gun fired would have a lot more issues with physics again. Bets location is the center of the mass or even below to distribute the recoil energy to the ground. Exception would be Lasers sicne they have no recoil, but funnily many new japanese "humanoid mechs" still have recoil with oversized lasers LOL, yeha realism, again?
All the new japanese stuff violtes any physics and then it looks weird unrealistic and just sucks.
Yeah mechs of battletech are like big walking tanks, because that is what the size and mass together with their shape would cause on such a big piece of metal and electronics.
Yes make a giant solder of metal, carrying a weapon, do you even know what physics would apply? what inertenss and forces would apply on a 25m robot wielding a sniperrifle? An chassis integrated version closer to the center and turnpoint is the much correcter physical concept to build such a mech.
Modern, japanese Mechs making all these instant stops and turns causing every pilots inner organs being crushed by the forces applying to them. Gundam, LOL how do these things even fly by science and physics. ROFL, more realistic. Or do I miss the irony in your post?
That does not only look weird that is wong and can not ever create a consitent universe or true immersion. That is for japanese who like all that supernatural stuff like Dragonall and such, be a cool thing, but many people like me, just don't like this, it makes no sense, it does not create a real mech game or simulation. I have not touched all thes egames exactly because of this, because it looks wrong, and it felt wrong in the few games I played. Next time you get a real big paket, just put the giant shaped box in front of you and run to see how air resistence already on this shape and size counters you. Yet you go with a supersized robot.
Probably all the todays anime/manga artists had a nice sudying in painting but horribly sucked in physics, and this is the result of all that.
Sci fi is science fiction, its a mixture of both, fiction and science, but when you constantly violate the most basics of the science, stuff gets just too stupid. Most japanese mechagenres and games just fail here. as an anime its ok, its just soemthing you watch, but playing this causes 0 immersion being a mech game.
Your post is a lot more a LOL post because it seems you missed physics in school. Or maybe you havent even had them yet.
You do realise that the mechs in MWO are not entirely mechanical. Underneath the armour they have artificial muscles called myomer. I'm no expert on the lore but from what I've been told. The mechs in battletech are far more agile in the books than how they're represented in the games.
But yeah battletech is sc-fi game of thrones with mechs so you can throw realism out the window. As with any mecha genre.
Well apart from the original Steel Battalion. That had all the physics stuff in it. Like turning too quickly in your mech would cause it to fall over.
Lily from animove, on 06 January 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:
Nonsense, total nonsense, the term mecha refers to something mechanical, even a car is by definition something mecha. Not even the term "robot" has anything to do with "human". Maybe you should first see what the terms "mecha" and "robot" means
Further if you make a giant humanoid mech/robot, you still can not give it human like behavior, because physics and stuff do not apply to the same degree, japanese went for "realistic mechs" lol, yeah giant mass instant changing directions, with all thee swiftness. Physics would like to have a word with your "realism".
You are dense aren't you?
If you really watched Gundam you would know how mecha first originated. They were originally powered suits used for construction, like those of space stations. Eventually they would be militarized. There are many conveniences of a humanoid structure for constructing purposes, the advantage of having limbs and hands. Successive shows in the Gundam UC still portray mechs, even militarized ones, for other purposes, like base construction and repair.
Another thing is that a humanoid mech is easy to balance because you can use the weight of your arms to do it. Also humanoid mechs are extensions of the pilot. The mech body becomes part of the body through various mind interfaces.
Instant changing directions? Attainable quite frankly. Ever played an air sim? Do you understand that if you have very high power to weight ratios you can do this? Or that the faster you fly the aerodynamic forces being exerted against the surface increases tremendously? Do you also understand that they are also often fighting in space?
Quote
So no, the old japanese was not stupid, having a big gun in the center is the best way of how to add a gun physics wise, on a shoulder the gun fired would have a lot more issues with physics again. Bets location is the center of the mass or even below to distribute the recoil energy to the ground. Exception would be Lasers sicne they have no recoil, but funnily many new japanese "humanoid mechs" still have recoil with oversized lasers LOL, yeha realism, again?
Nonsense. A big gun in the torso is the worst place to put a gun. A gun recoils, where is the stress transferred to? Directly to the structural skeleton? Compare that to the soldier holding a rifle. Where is the recoil stress transferred to? It takes advantage of the leverage of the arm and shoulder joints, as well as the stance of the shooter to absorb the impact. Have you ever fired a gun? Do you know why when you are holding and shooting a gun, your elbows are slightly bent instead of straight? Have you ever seen a novice shooter fire a rifle standing perfectly straight? He or she perfectly falls over. The truth is no one fires a ballistic standing up like a mech does because it would knock them over.
Quote
All the new japanese stuff violtes any physics and then it looks weird unrealistic and just sucks.
Yeah mechs of battletech are like big walking tanks, because that is what the size and mass together with their shape would cause on such a big piece of metal and electronics.
Big walking tanks are a HORRIBLE idea. I guess you never studied or played tank warfare. Whatever makes you taller makes you more visible and whatever makes you more visible makes you a target.
A mech has too much surface or skin area. For any given weight, the more surface area you have, the more armor is thinned out. That is why tanks are extremely compact for their weight. A modern tank weighs about 70 tons, as much as a heavy mech. Yet it is much smaller, which means the armor is much less spread out, the armor is much more dense and thicker.
A mech can never survive in a battle against a tank armor to armor. Thus it needs to rely on mobility and speed.
Quote
Yes make a giant solder of metal, carrying a weapon, do you even know what physics would apply? what inertenss and forces would apply on a 25m robot wielding a sniperrifle? An chassis integrated version closer to the center and turnpoint is the much correcter physical concept to build such a mech.
Nope. It would exerted the recoil force directly into the center structure, and quite frankly, not even battleships do that. Guns need to be placed in an area where they can easily be removed and transfersed. Putting guns in the center of the body limit transverse angle and rates as opposed to the arms. The heavier the body where we need to put more armor, the slower we can expect transverse rates to happen if the gun is mounted in the center of the body. Arms would not have such limitations.
Quote
Modern, japanese Mechs making all these instant stops and turns causing every pilots inner organs being crushed by the forces applying to them. Gundam, LOL how do these things even fly by science and physics. ROFL, more realistic. Or do I miss the irony in your post?
You would have no way of knowing how much G forces are being exerted unless you have some idea of the scale of the speed being expressed. Furthermore, lets also assume that these mechs have AI, they would also compensate and make self corrections to account for the pilot's G effects.
Let's take Macross. If a Valkyrie goes into Gerwalk mode, it won't be traveling as fast as it is in plane mode, the drag of the legs would slow it down and by so doing, allows for more extreme maneuvers and enemies to overshoot you. Going into the full humanoid mode means even more drag, and allows for more extreme maneuvers, but at the same time, it becomes much slower as well. This is not dissimilar from world war 2 fighter planes dropping their gear and their flaps to rapidly slow down for a turn fight.
When you are flying very fast the aerodynamic forces being exerted against your control surfaces makes them heavy and resistant to changes, limiting maneuverabiity.
The very idea of a dogfight is to be behind the enemy to shoot at him, not to be in front of him.
Quote
That does not only look weird that is wong and can not ever create a consitent universe or true immersion. That is for japanese who like all that supernatural stuff like Dragonall and such, be a cool thing, but many people like me, just don't like this, it makes no sense, it does not create a real mech game or simulation. I have not touched all thes egames exactly because of this, because it looks wrong, and it felt wrong in the few games I played. Next time you get a real big paket, just put the giant shaped box in front of you and run to see how air resistence already on this shape and size counters you. Yet you go with a supersized robot.
Probably all the todays anime/manga artists had a nice sudying in painting but horribly sucked in physics, and this is the result of all that.
Sci fi is science fiction, its a mixture of both, fiction and science, but when you constantly violate the most basics of the science, stuff gets just too stupid. Most japanese mechagenres and games just fail here. as an anime its ok, its just soemthing you watch, but playing this causes 0 immersion being a mech game.
Your post is a lot more a LOL post because it seems you missed physics in school. Or maybe you havent even had them yet.
The biggest LOL of all is that you somehow think that a Battlemech is somewhat a superior and more accurate form of "mech" compared to the Asian or humanoid ones. One of the reasons of Battletech's unmarketability outside of its core audience is that anyone who looks at Battletech and its technological premises thinks its absolutely silly. You think that an Atlas stomping across the battlefield, shooting its weapons standing straight up somehow represents a superior, realistic vision of warfare? (Laughable). A large mech stomping around standing straight up declares its position by sound and an easy spot by radar and thermal. But if its running, jumping, or even skating, it becomes a much harder target to hit. It would move so fast, it would outflank an enemy position or pour through a weak point in the enemy front. The advantage of using legs is that potentially it can run faster than tracks, and at the same time, with a mech, you express the power and mobility of a tank with only a single person (tanks take three to five crewmen). A mech should be like an extension of a Spartan in Halo; the difference is that the ratio of human mass to mechanical mass becomes much smaller and the mechanical scale becomes much bigger.
I like this series because it portrays how I think land based mech combat should be, plus it portrays some relevant social issues about the arms industry. I don't really like the design of the hero mech though, it goes completely out of whack with the rest of the mechs. But then again, as you go deeper in the series, you will see more like it, and they are menacing. It also questions the real and moral purpose of the hero mech. One interesting part is how a single mech can control others like it, similar to drones, but that would be giving away spoilers. Plus its one of those few mech series that isn't made by Sunrise.
If you really watched Gundam you would know how mecha first originated. They were originally powered suits used for construction, like those of space stations. Eventually they would be militarized. There are many conveniences of a humanoid structure for constructing purposes, the advantage of having limbs and hands. Successive shows in the Gundam UC still portray mechs, even militarized ones, for other purposes, like base construction and repair.
Another thing is that a humanoid mech is easy to balance because you can use the weight of your arms to do it. Also humanoid mechs are extensions of the pilot. The mech body becomes part of the body through various mind interfaces.
Instant changing directions? Attainable quite frankly. Ever played an air sim? Do you understand that if you have very high power to weight ratios you can do this? Or that the faster you fly the aerodynamic forces being exerted against the surface increases tremendously? Do you also understand that they are also often fighting in space?
Nonsense. A big gun in the torso is the worst place to put a gun. A gun recoils, where is the stress transferred to? Directly to the structural skeleton? Compare that to the soldier holding a rifle. Where is the recoil stress transferred to? It takes advantage of the leverage of the arm and shoulder joints, as well as the stance of the shooter to absorb the impact. Have you ever fired a gun? Do you know why when you are holding and shooting a gun, your elbows are slightly bent instead of straight? Have you ever seen a novice shooter fire a rifle standing perfectly straight? He or she perfectly falls over. The truth is no one fires a ballistic standing up like a mech does because it would knock them over.
Big walking tanks are a HORRIBLE idea. I guess you never studied or played tank warfare. Whatever makes you taller makes you more visible and whatever makes you more visible makes you a target.
A mech has too much surface or skin area. For any given weight, the more surface area you have, the more armor is thinned out. That is why tanks are extremely compact for their weight. A modern tank weighs about 70 tons, as much as a heavy mech. Yet it is much smaller, which means the armor is much less spread out, the armor is much more dense and thicker.
A mech can never survive in a battle against a tank armor to armor. Thus it needs to rely on mobility and speed.
Nope. It would exerted the recoil force directly into the center structure, and quite frankly, not even battleships do that. Guns need to be placed in an area where they can easily be removed and transfersed. Putting guns in the center of the body limit transverse angle and rates as opposed to the arms. The heavier the body where we need to put more armor, the slower we can expect transverse rates to happen if the gun is mounted in the center of the body. Arms would not have such limitations.
You would have no way of knowing how much G forces are being exerted unless you have some idea of the scale of the speed being expressed. Furthermore, lets also assume that these mechs have AI, they would also compensate and make self corrections to account for the pilot's G effects.
Let's take Macross. If a Valkyrie goes into Gerwalk mode, it won't be traveling as fast as it is in plane mode, the drag of the legs would slow it down and by so doing, allows for more extreme maneuvers and enemies to overshoot you. Going into the full humanoid mode means even more drag, and allows for more extreme maneuvers, but at the same time, it becomes much slower as well. This is not dissimilar from world war 2 fighter planes dropping their gear and their flaps to rapidly slow down for a turn fight.
When you are flying very fast the aerodynamic forces being exerted against your control surfaces makes them heavy and resistant to changes, limiting maneuverabiity.
The very idea of a dogfight is to be behind the enemy to shoot at him, not to be in front of him.
The biggest LOL of all is that you somehow think that a Battlemech is somewhat a superior and more accurate form of "mech" compared to the Asian or humanoid ones. One of the reasons of Battletech's unmarketability outside of its core audience is that anyone who looks at Battletech and its technological premises thinks its absolutely silly. You think that an Atlas stomping across the battlefield, shooting its weapons standing straight up somehow represents a superior, realistic vision of warfare? (Laughable). A large mech stomping around standing straight up declares its position by sound and an easy spot by radar and thermal. But if its running, jumping, or even skating, it becomes a much harder target to hit. It would move so fast, it would outflank an enemy position or pour through a weak point in the enemy front. The advantage of using legs is that potentially it can run faster than tracks, and at the same time, with a mech, you express the power and mobility of a tank with only a single person (tanks take three to five crewmen). A mech should be like an extension of a Spartan in Halo; the difference is that the ratio of human mass to mechanical mass becomes much smaller and the mechanical scale becomes much bigger.
you still compeltely ignroe the ohysics, great job, space huh? still inertness does exist in space. you acan't dot hat easily and survive, but continue defending your supernatual little series that obviously all failed as games because no one wants to play that stuff the way it is.
the solder is using the the shoulder, because that is by human anatomy the best part, y<et in a solid metal humaoid beign its not. because there is no lung behind that which is a softer not valid place. or do your magic mechas have lungs? stationary guns are not like handguns or rifles, they have their own ways to deal with recoils. and a mech of the size we have has enough of that.
so what? ac 2 in the torso an issue?
you fire this from a torso on a 20+t mech, do you really think this cares the mech, LOL. Or this
why would it require any shoulder mounted stuff? It doesn't.
And G-forces? Dunno we have enough scientific test what a human is able to wistand, and you 80ü kph isntant stop mechs, well, yeha, try to defend your weird physics genre.
The part of mechwarriors sciencefiction is that they use the mechs, and of course everyone knows its not the realitsic part but your anime meche series are plain unrealsitic at nearly any aspect. Thats the differenc ebetween science fiction and pure fiction, especialy the anime fiction. But they do not create a immersive functional world. They exaggerate this to a degree like splatetr movies where everyone is losing more blood than 5 people have. And thats why mechwarrior has the better universe and the mecha series just some fans watching cool movies. but maybe you are too much fanboy ofyour little anime mechas to see why realism there is ttally off and wrong.
Anjian, on 06 January 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:
You are dense aren't you?
If you really watched Gundam you would know how mecha first originated. They were originally powered suits used for construction, like those of space stations. Eventually they would be militarized. There are many conveniences of a humanoid structure for constructing purposes, the advantage of having limbs and hands. Successive shows in the Gundam UC still portray mechs, even militarized ones, for other purposes, like base construction and repair.
Another thing is that a humanoid mech is easy to balance because you can use the weight of your arms to do it. Also humanoid mechs are extensions of the pilot. The mech body becomes part of the body through various mind interfaces.
Instant changing directions? Attainable quite frankly. Ever played an air sim? Do you understand that if you have very high power to weight ratios you can do this? Or that the faster you fly the aerodynamic forces being exerted against the surface increases tremendously? Do you also understand that they are also often fighting in space?
Nonsense. A big gun in the torso is the worst place to put a gun. A gun recoils, where is the stress transferred to? Directly to the structural skeleton? Compare that to the soldier holding a rifle. Where is the recoil stress transferred to? It takes advantage of the leverage of the arm and shoulder joints, as well as the stance of the shooter to absorb the impact. Have you ever fired a gun? Do you know why when you are holding and shooting a gun, your elbows are slightly bent instead of straight? Have you ever seen a novice shooter fire a rifle standing perfectly straight? He or she perfectly falls over. The truth is no one fires a ballistic standing up like a mech does because it would knock them over.
Big walking tanks are a HORRIBLE idea. I guess you never studied or played tank warfare. Whatever makes you taller makes you more visible and whatever makes you more visible makes you a target.
A mech has too much surface or skin area. For any given weight, the more surface area you have, the more armor is thinned out. That is why tanks are extremely compact for their weight. A modern tank weighs about 70 tons, as much as a heavy mech. Yet it is much smaller, which means the armor is much less spread out, the armor is much more dense and thicker.
A mech can never survive in a battle against a tank armor to armor. Thus it needs to rely on mobility and speed.
Nope. It would exerted the recoil force directly into the center structure, and quite frankly, not even battleships do that. Guns need to be placed in an area where they can easily be removed and transfersed. Putting guns in the center of the body limit transverse angle and rates as opposed to the arms. The heavier the body where we need to put more armor, the slower we can expect transverse rates to happen if the gun is mounted in the center of the body. Arms would not have such limitations.
You would have no way of knowing how much G forces are being exerted unless you have some idea of the scale of the speed being expressed. Furthermore, lets also assume that these mechs have AI, they would also compensate and make self corrections to account for the pilot's G effects.
Let's take Macross. If a Valkyrie goes into Gerwalk mode, it won't be traveling as fast as it is in plane mode, the drag of the legs would slow it down and by so doing, allows for more extreme maneuvers and enemies to overshoot you. Going into the full humanoid mode means even more drag, and allows for more extreme maneuvers, but at the same time, it becomes much slower as well. This is not dissimilar from world war 2 fighter planes dropping their gear and their flaps to rapidly slow down for a turn fight.
When you are flying very fast the aerodynamic forces being exerted against your control surfaces makes them heavy and resistant to changes, limiting maneuverabiity.
The very idea of a dogfight is to be behind the enemy to shoot at him, not to be in front of him.
The biggest LOL of all is that you somehow think that a Battlemech is somewhat a superior and more accurate form of "mech" compared to the Asian or humanoid ones. One of the reasons of Battletech's unmarketability outside of its core audience is that anyone who looks at Battletech and its technological premises thinks its absolutely silly. You think that an Atlas stomping across the battlefield, shooting its weapons standing straight up somehow represents a superior, realistic vision of warfare? (Laughable). A large mech stomping around standing straight up declares its position by sound and an easy spot by radar and thermal. But if its running, jumping, or even skating, it becomes a much harder target to hit. It would move so fast, it would outflank an enemy position or pour through a weak point in the enemy front. The advantage of using legs is that potentially it can run faster than tracks, and at the same time, with a mech, you express the power and mobility of a tank with only a single person (tanks take three to five crewmen). A mech should be like an extension of a Spartan in Halo; the difference is that the ratio of human mass to mechanical mass becomes much smaller and the mechanical scale becomes much bigger.
you can't just run and gun around on tose scales, and thats the issue you may never understand, material has a inertness and mass, and no matter how much power you put in you can't make it that agile on siuch a scale, it would probably break before moving. YOU CAN NOT SCALE AS WILD AS YOU WANT. your mechasuit genre works on a smaller scale, but those games then not really get the feeling of big mechs, and are more, as you already described much like standard infantry shooters. you have then just a game of infantry disguised in a mechanical suit, not a really big mech game. And on a real big mech game you will never have such a behavior by physics.
Stop scaling phyiscs, because many aspcts in phyiscs are exponential and can't be scaled.
Your material would not survive that nor would you ever be able to simply move a few meter long arm quickly wihtout needing massively huge and porbably impossible to get Energies.
Anjian, on 06 January 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:
I like this series because it portrays how I think land based mech combat should be, plus it portrays some relevant social issues about the arms industry. I don't really like the design of the hero mech though, it goes completely out of whack with the rest of the mechs. But then again, as you go deeper in the series, you will see more like it, and they are menacing. It also questions the real and moral purpose of the hero mech. One interesting part is how a single mech can control others like it, similar to drones, but that would be giving away spoilers. Plus its one of those few mech series that isn't made by Sunrise.
yes those mechs have somehow a lot more realistic feeling. at least as you said until the hero mech appears
Edited by Lily from animove, 06 January 2015 - 02:18 PM.
What makes battletech and especially the mechwarrior games cool is the spectacle. It reminds me of the intro scenes of the Terminator movies when they show those massive tracked skynet tanks blasting everything. Does it make sense from a modern military perspective? Not really. But god damn does it look cool.
Battletech took japanese mecha, slowed it down, and sorta "westernized" it to something that seemed more plausible as of 30 YEARS AGO.
Have you guys tried watching aliens recently? Those massive computer terminals in the ships look absolutely silly today. To a degree I think that same concept applies here. But who cares if it isn't an accurate representation of future warfare? It freaking cool. I like battletech's vision of mechs, slow, badass, and stupidly destructive!
I'll just weigh in my 2 cents and say that the whole idea behind mechs is that they look cool, regardless of whether or not they are realistic. This generality applies to the vast, vast majority of sci-fi genres as well, so it's really not worth arguing over. It affects everything from laser guns to space fighters.
About the chicken walker vs humanoid mecha debate, which I've found very interesting:
It all depends on what technology is available for constructing your mechs. First off, I'm going to assume we have some kind of unforeseeable technology or change in warfare that makes mechs feasible for combat in the first place. So, going from there, whether a non-humanoid or humanoid mecha is "better" is entirely a matter of:
1.) What kind of tech are these makes made from, and:
2.) What mission is your mech designed for?
If two-legged balance (better computers and more research), extremely sophisticated and highly automated methods of control (better computers), and a high number of moving parts aren't a problem (perhaps due to some technological advance that makes moving parts maintenance-free), and the ability to obtain extreme strength and rigidity for a very low weight (advanced materials like composites and carbon nanotubes) and versatility, mobility, and the ability to adapt to terrain and combat situations is more important that logistics, mechanical simplicity and brute force, humanoid mechs win.
Anjian has a point in that humanoid mecha have a big advantage in that they can fight like actual infantry. If we're talking about small mecha or mech-style power armor (let's say, 10-20 feet tall), it makes even more sense as the square cube law doesn't bother small mechs nearly as much. Advanced lightweight materials would allow mecha of this size to have very human-like movement and low ground pressure, and as such, the level of mobility presented in Japanese mecha shows becomes quite obtainable (short of flying - humans don't fly, tanks don't fly, humanoid tanks definitely aren't going to fly).
But the level of agility you see in, lets say, Hawken or the Front Mission games is definitely plausible. Wheels or tracks in the feet would make high speed movement over smooth surfaces easy. Jump jets? Maybe, if the lift they provide is worth the weight, complexity, and energy consumption of having them. Handheld weapons would make swapping weapons and utility tasks a breeze. However, there are two major catches:
1.) How to control a humanoid mech in a fluid, fully humanoid manner that makes its full range of movement actually usable. Otherwise, it's just a humanoid walking tank, which is a complete waste. A neuro-helmet or AI could probably do this.
2.) You either have to have armor strong and light enough to survive getting hit (which it will, a lot) or have a mech with the sheer speed and agility needed to avoid being hit in the first place. Preferably both.
But if you can accomplish both of these and all listed above, humanoid mechs are golden.
On the other hand, a non-humanoid mecha has the advantages of being a walking tank, which means:
1.) Better armor for same weight.
2.) Better stability - Lower center of gravity from not having arms and a head.
3.) Generally speaking, the ability to do the same job with fewer moving parts, which is always a good thing.
So, from a design standpoint, a non-humanoid mech does the same job as a humanoid mech with greater efficiency - but at the cost of not being able to take full advantage of its... Shall we say, mech-ness. And "mech-ness" is the whole point of a mech in the first place, otherwise you're just building a tank with legs - at which point you are probably better off just building tanks.
Of course, this whole debate is assuming we're in a world where technological advances or a dramatic change in warfare has made mechs viable as weapons of war in the first place. Otherwise, tanks beat both of them and this entire discussion is pointless.
But yeah. That's my thoughts on the topic.
Edit:
Anjian, on 06 January 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:
Where can I watch this?
Edited by StompingOnTanks, 06 January 2015 - 07:02 PM.
Lily from animove, on 06 January 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:
you still compeltely ignroe the ohysics, great job, space huh? still inertness does exist in space. you acan't dot hat easily and survive, but continue defending your supernatual little series that obviously all failed as games because no one wants to play that stuff the way it is.
Really? Teaching about physics which you cannot even spell right? Not to mention that Battletech revolves around faster than light travel which isn't possible and has yet to be proven.
Rule of science fiction does not apply the law of inertia in the cockpit. Otherwise you won't have Star Wars or Guardians of the Galaxy. Battletech has manned aerospace fighters and starfighters too.
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the solder is using the the shoulder, because that is by human anatomy the best part, y<et in a solid metal humaoid beign its not. because there is no lung behind that which is a softer not valid place. or do your magic mechas have lungs? stationary guns are not like handguns or rifles, they have their own ways to deal with recoils. and a mech of the size we have has enough of that.
Again, nonsense. Tanks and battleships don't have lungs either, but their cannons are stored outside of the main body.
You have no idea that guns, unlike in Battletech, produce a lot of heat. And the best way to keep them cool is to expose them in the air, not inside the mech where the heat is also transferred into the body.
Putting the gun inside the mechs body also means you have to design the body frame structure around the gun in order to hold the recoil.
The problem of that this approach isn't modular. If you designed a structure for one particular gun, it won't fit another gun. I build a mech with an AC20 in the torso, you can't rebuild it for a Gauss.
Another thing: mechs do have "lungs". The main body should be central to the cooling systems for the power source, as well as the life support for the pilot, as well as the information systems for the pilot and weapons control. At least we know Gundam got it right that mechs should have vents.
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so what? ac 2 in the torso an issue?
you fire this from a torso on a 20+t mech, do you really think this cares the mech, LOL. Or this
why would it require any shoulder mounted stuff? It doesn't.
No you don't. A 20mm won't harm much of anything these days. Try a far more powerful cannon that can at least kill a tank (120mm). Ballistics in Battletech are far removed from reality. If an AC/2 is like a 20mm, it won't penetrate a current modern battletank like an M1 Abrams.
You have to encase the gun inside the body and by doing so, the gun barrel's length would be limited. That limits the velocity of the shell and therefore its range and penetration. For a barrel to be effectively torso mounted, it would have to significantly protrude from the torso.
Longer barrels produce higher velocities, which means greater accuracy, range and penetration. Learn something about tank design and warfare please.
You can't design a mech around a longer barrel because you have to design a mech around the critical parts first --- the power source, structural rigidity, support for locomotion, etc,.
Another thing, no one wants internal cannons because they are hard to maintain in the battlefield. Do you know that barrels have wear and tear? That they jam? If it breaks inside a mech, guess what the mech is practically useless. It will take much longer to open the mech up and replace the barrel. Much longer.
Compare that if a mech can just discard a hand held gun and get another.
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And G-forces? Dunno we have enough scientific test what a human is able to wistand, and you 80ü kph isntant stop mechs, well, yeha, try to defend your weird physics genre.
They actually could. Ever see fighter planes? And like I said, science fiction don't apply the rules of inertia in the pilot's cockpit. Otherwise you won't have manned starfighters.
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The part of mechwarriors sciencefiction is that they use the mechs, and of course everyone knows its not the realitsic part but your anime meche series are plain unrealsitic at nearly any aspect. Thats the differenc ebetween science fiction and pure fiction, especialy the anime fiction. But they do not create a immersive functional world. They exaggerate this to a degree like splatetr movies where everyone is losing more blood than 5 people have. And thats why mechwarrior has the better universe and the mecha series just some fans watching cool movies. but maybe you are too much fanboy ofyour little anime mechas to see why realism there is ttally off and wrong.
Mechwarrior isn't an immersive nor functional world. It doesn't feel like something in the 30th Century. Somehow you can travel the stars but your mechs can't autoaim (despite that AMS does autoaim). That your mechs have an old school glass cockpit instead of virtual reality cockpits like in many anime? Geez man, one shot at the cockpit and you're dead. In anime, the head becomes an overall sensor, keeping the pilot in the most secure and safest part of the mech.
How about this? Why do you put ammo in the legs when your gun is at the arm or torso? Is there some magical way that is transported up to the gun? Why do you keep heat sinks in the legs when the hot weapon is at the torso? Heat sinks only work when they are in contact to that something they are trying to cool. Heat sinks also require fresh air. Again, Japanese got it right that mechs have grills and slits to allow for ventilation.
Gundam UC (Universal Century) is probably the most immersive mech universe I know actually because of its impressive continuity and consistency. It really has a story to tell about the Earth people and the Spacenoids, with a sincere social and political message. Among games, Armored Core and Front Mission are both superb. The problem I feel with Battletech is that it doesn't have much of a soul. Everything feels hodge podge from Earth history, just to create some setting for the mechs. Star League and the Republic of the Sphere feels like its lifted off from Star Wars. Paladins and knights? Another is the feeling that the Battletech characters are pretty one dimensional (except on the Dark Age series, where it becomes more like Game of Thrones). Why is Gundam's Char Aznable probably the one of the most remembered characters in not just of any mech franchise but in all of anime history?
In fact for non Asian mech franchises, the lore for Earthsiege/Tribes, Hawken and Heavy Gear are much more internally consistent and faithful to a core theme than Battletech.
Armored Core for example is probably the most immersive I know when it comes to the detail and attention it puts into mech technology. Not to mention a world ecologically devastated by war and by the greed of the Corporations. What is interesting is that the series, like Gundam, have a social message.
Another thing Armored Core gets right is energy weapons. Battletech doesn't get it right when it comes to energy weapons. If you use energy weapons you will deplete your mech's own energy reserve (energy actually should not produce that much heat compared to ballistic weapons that use chemical combustion). Less energy means it reduces the ability of your mech to boost and move fast, essential for survival, and at the same time, firing your energy weapons. Thus you are managing your energy reserves.
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you can't just run and gun around on tose scales, and thats the issue you may never understand, material has a inertness and mass, and no matter how much power you put in you can't make it that agile on siuch a scale, it would probably break before moving. YOU CAN NOT SCALE AS WILD AS YOU WANT. your mechasuit genre works on a smaller scale, but those games then not really get the feeling of big mechs, and are more, as you already described much like standard infantry shooters. you have then just a game of infantry disguised in a mechanical suit, not a really big mech game. And on a real big mech game you will never have such a behavior by physics.
Stop scaling phyiscs, because many aspcts in phyiscs are exponential and can't be scaled.
Your material would not survive that nor would you ever be able to simply move a few meter long arm quickly wihtout needing massively huge and porbably impossible to get Energies.
You cannot even spell physics right, how dare you lecture me about it? And somehow Battletech is more realistic when faster than light travel as we know has yet to be proven possible, and yet even a stretch in theoritical astrophysics? And yet Gundam doesn't even faster than light travel. What is harder to believe, actual faster than light travel or dealing with high G forces? Oh lets not mention, warp the ammo from the legs to the missiles on your torso.
You have no idea that you can indeed scale. Future mecha aren't made of heavy steel and metal; they are probably made of carbon nanotubes and graphene, creating material much harder, yet much lighter than metal. If future technology allows, you can create vast portable power sources and a light mecha with a tremendous power to weight ratio.
If you focus on the mech franchises that are land based or have limited flight, the sense of realism is even more greater. They don't even focus on star empires and stuff like that, everything is on Earth.
Front Mission
Armored Core Silent Line
Armored Core The Last Raven
Armored Core Nexus
Armored Core certainly gets it right when it comes to city battles, especially at night.
StompingOnTanks, on 06 January 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:
So, from a design standpoint, a non-humanoid mech does the same job as a humanoid mech with greater efficiency - but at the cost of not being able to take full advantage of its... Shall we say, mech-ness. And "mech-ness" is the whole point of a mech in the first place, otherwise you're just building a tank with legs - at which point you are probably better off just building tanks.
That is absolutely correct. A walking tank isn't necessarily better than a tracked tank, and there is no point in replacing one that works. There has to be a point in being a mech.
I find it ironic that in the Battletech Dark Age Clix games, you can field an army of VTOLs, tanks, artillery and infantry --- a mech less army --- and beat the one with mechs. Liao Peasant units anyone?
Oh, and while I'm at it, the idea of mechs flying under their own power, or engaging in melee combat as anything other than a last ditch effort to survive, is completely unrealistic. It's cool, but still completely unrealistic.
Armored Core Verdict Day online match. This is likely to be in their "community warfare" mode given you got faction markings (Venide vs. Evergreen). If you jump into territory, some times all you meet are bots and some very painful turrets. But if you got "Hostiles Alert" it means you will be facing some human enemies. I love the presentation as the mechs gets dropped off, then a display who you are fighting against, displaying their badges. Then all hell breaks loose.
The markings you can upload and edit and lots of people love to use manga images. If you are leading a squad you can employ from a pool of mercs to complete your team. If you are a merc, you can fight either side depending on the squad you are temporarily employed with.
You really should not jump too high during PvP, as it exposes you as a target. You only have to jump just high enough to quickly fall and hide behind the buildings.
The winner won, despite two of his members are actually AI bots (U1 and U2). The AI bots in the game are actually quite competent, a reason why the PvE missions can be quite a challenge.
That is absolutely correct. A walking tank isn't necessarily better than a tracked tank, and there is no point in replacing one that works. There has to be a point in being a mech.
I find it ironic that in the Battletech Dark Age Clix games, you can field an army of VTOLs, tanks, artillery and infantry --- a mech less army --- and beat the one with mechs. Liao Peasant units anyone?
True that, actually most mechs are overpriced in the clix based games, especially as infantry can "take over" mechs. No fun, really, among the worst spent money ever.
StompingOnTanks, on 06 January 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:
Oh, and while I'm at it, the idea of mechs flying under their own power, or engaging in melee combat as anything other than a last ditch effort to survive, is completely unrealistic. It's cool, but still completely unrealistic.
Is it really? Weren't there close combat only variants like e.g. the Valiant? However, it would be still cool though when an Atlas mashes a Centurions cockpit to a pulp using a Raven
I had some really good and memorable battles on Hawken. But they really need to completely redo their server and matchmaking infrastructure to make it more MMO like.
7
Sam Slade, on 04 January 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:
