187 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

If tanks really aim well, mechs won't last in two seconds and you won't have a mech series.

Edited by Anjian, 19 March 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[Taffer]

Front Mission 4 was really cool. I never finished it though. Tried to get back into it, but there's sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much dialogue. blah blah blah blah blah. Just let me freaking play already.

Edited by Taffer, 19 March 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[Anjian]

Realistic physics on a mech game---

I have never seen this on any mech game with one sole exception:

Chromehounds

If you are familiar with War Thunder Ground Forces, you notice you never aim directly at your target except in close ranges. You tend to aim above it, to account for the ballistic flight path of the projectile as it curves downward due to gravity. Chromehounds works on a similar principle.

Chromehounds does have something a bit more different than WTGF though, something that reminds me of Heavy Gear 2. That is, when shells land on the ground, they got splash damage. If the shells miss you and lands somewhere away, then you are safe. But if the shooter is on an elevation, firing at you from a height, the missed shells can come landing near your feet.

This works especially well with the concept of the artillery mechs, which is really a battleship with legs, more often in four legs. They got these long cannons on turrets, like a battleship, and their gunsights are more like rangefinders than target reticles, like an artillery sight. Artillery shells have a much greater splash effect than normal cannons, and you can fire them salvo after salvo over terrain obstacles, watch them arc downward and watch the enemy team take your barrage. Though they have a slow rate of fire, you can take the artillery mechs for direct fire at a close range opponent. The effects are devastating.

Apply realistic damage on something that is not realistic at all causes serious problems, because all it does is highlight the defiencies of the mech design, and if not the very concept of mech warfare.

If you are to apply let's say, the sloped tank armor physics in War Thunder and World of Tanks, the MWO mechs are extremely poor, often with their large flat surfaces and areas with shot traps that increase shell penetration.

A realistic mech would end up looking very smooth, full of curved and angular surfaces meant to deflect shots and reveal very little in way of shot traps. The torso would have to be deep, with a minimal front profile, and the chest surface would have to be pointed and highly angular. The highly angular mech would also have to draped with an outer layer of hanging spaced armor, like skirts around the waist and shields on the arms and legs, which are disposed and stripped off as they are hit. The armor is essentially a combination of spaced and composite, the inner angular and curved armor consists of various layers, the boxlike outer spaced armor has some gap between it and the inner armor and may also feature a reactive surface, perhaps in the form of brick or slab arrays. (Reactive armor explodes outward when hit, causing the hitting projectile to be blown out). It won't look anything like we have seen before, although some Japanese mecha are already on that direction but still falling well short. Our "realistic" mech looks like a cross between an M1 Abrams and an F-22 stealth fighter with thick stout legs and long large arms like a gorilla.

The legs would have to be stout and thick, so they can take a lot of damage before they go, with large feet containing wide pads and tracks that can distribute as much ground pressure (to prevent the mech sinking into the soft mud). We can also expect the legs to dig in, to provide high stability for high powered, high recoil shots, like high caliber antiarmor rifles. The arms themselves are long enough so the mech can crawl, or use the arms as auxilliary legs if the primary legs are damaged. Or they can become a third leg for even more stability for artillery use or sniping.

The "head" itself would have to be minimal, so it doesn't become a target, a revolving eye in there that works like a zoom. There is no glass cockpit or anything like that, that would give snipers a target. In other words, much like a tank, though there might be visibility slits for the pilot to use if the optical and sensor head pod fails. The eye itself would have to be protected through an enclosure, again, highly curved or sloped for maximum shot deflection.

Our mech can't be very tall also, since being tall is being an easy target. It needs to have the ability to crawl and lie in a prone position for maximum cover, hence the strong arms to help crawl or lift the mech from the ground.

A mech game that works on realism is going to **punish** designs for art and looking for bad ass sake. In some ways, we are already seeing this in MWO, like when you want to create cool looking bad ass mechs but ends up with large flat masculine torsos that are easy to hit. Too many mechs have large chests and torsos for that bad ass macho look but end up being a target magnet. Turns out that being skinny though ugly works best. We have reached similar conclusions with Chromehounds long ago, where the game allows you to create your own mech designs through lego like modules. In the end, we were creating mechs that are either very low or very thin, to avoid as much front profile, and which don't look anything like all we expect stereotypically from mechs in visual media.

But with even more realism, mech art for arts and bad ass sake will be punished even more. The mechs would have to be designed for pure function and pure function only.

Edited by Anjian, 21 March 2015 - 07:55 PM.

[XphR]

The arty Hounds could also take advantage of outcropped rocks by stepping one leg up on them to gain additional elevation. At that point you generally needed to be in the same voice bubble as a downrange spotter to call for adjustments and announce hits. *sigh* I so miss Chromehounds...

[AWOL 01]

Anjian, on 21 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Spoiler

Realistic physics on a mech game---

I have never seen this on any mech game with one sole exception:

Chromehounds

If you are familiar with War Thunder Ground Forces, you notice you never aim directly at your target except in close ranges. You tend to aim above it, to account for the ballistic flight path of the projectile as it curves downward due to gravity. Chromehounds works on a similar principle.

Chromehounds does have something a bit more different than WTGF though, something that reminds me of Heavy Gear 2. That is, when shells land on the ground, they got splash damage. If the shells miss you and lands somewhere away, then you are safe. But if the shooter is on an elevation, firing at you from a height, the missed shells can come landing near your feet.

This works especially well with the concept of the artillery mechs, which is really a battleship with legs, more often in four legs. They got these long cannons on turrets, like a battleship, and their gunsights are more like rangefinders than target reticles, like an artillery sight. Artillery shells have a much greater splash effect than normal cannons, and you can fire them salvo after salvo over terrain obstacles, watch them arc downward and watch the enemy team take your barrage. Though they have a slow rate of fire, you can take the artillery mechs for direct fire at a close range opponent. The effects are devastating.

Apply realistic damage on something that is not realistic at all causes serious problems, because all it does is highlight the defiencies of the mech design, and if not the very concept of mech warfare.

If you are to apply let's say, the sloped tank armor physics in War Thunder and World of Tanks, the MWO mechs are extremely poor, often with their large flat surfaces and areas with shot traps that increase shell penetration.

A realistic mech would end up looking very smooth, full of curved and angular surfaces meant to deflect shots and reveal very little in way of shot traps. The torso would have to be deep, with a minimal front profile, and the chest surface would have to be pointed and highly angular. The highly angular mech would also have to draped with an outer layer of hanging spaced armor, like skirts around the waist and shields on the arms and legs, which are disposed and stripped off as they are hit. The armor is essentially a combination of spaced and composite, the inner angular and curved armor consists of various layers, the boxlike outer spaced armor has some gap between it and the inner armor and may also feature a reactive surface, perhaps in the form of brick or slab arrays. (Reactive armor explodes outward when hit, causing the hitting projectile to be blown out). It won't look anything like we have seen before, although some Japanese mecha are already on that direction but still falling well short. Our "realistic" mech looks like a cross between an M1 Abrams and an F-22 stealth fighter with thick stout legs and long large arms like a gorilla.

The legs would have to be stout and thick, so they can take a lot of damage before they go, with large feet containing wide pads and tracks that can distribute as much ground pressure (to prevent the mech sinking into the soft mud). We can also expect the legs to dig in, to provide high stability for high powered, high recoil shots, like high caliber antiarmor rifles. The arms themselves are long enough so the mech can crawl, or use the arms as auxilliary legs if the primary legs are damaged. Or they can become a third leg for even more stability for artillery use or sniping.

The "head" itself would have to be minimal, so it doesn't become a target, a revolving eye in there that works like a zoom. There is no glass cockpit or anything like that, that would give snipers a target. In other words, much like a tank, though there might be visibility slits for the pilot to use if the optical and sensor head pod fails. The eye itself would have to be protected through an enclosure, again, highly curved or sloped for maximum shot deflection.

Our mech can't be very tall also, since being tall is being an easy target. It needs to have the ability to crawl and lie in a prone position for maximum cover, hence the strong arms to help crawl or lift the mech from the ground.

A mech game that works on realism is going to **punish** designs for art and looking for bad ass sake. In some ways, we are already seeing this in MWO, like when you want to create cool looking bad ass mechs but ends up with large flat masculine torsos that are easy to hit. Too many mechs have large chests and torsos for that bad ass macho look but end up being a target magnet. Turns out that being skinny though ugly works best. We have reached similar conclusions with Chromehounds long ago, where the game allows you to create your own mech designs through lego like modules. In the end, we were creating mechs that are either very low or very thin, to avoid as much front profile, and which don't look anything like all we expect stereotypically from mechs in visual media.

But with even more realism, mech art for arts and bad ass sake will be punished even more. The mechs would have to be designed for pure function and pure function only.

I completely agree. The only thing I could see being changed is mechs having arms. I think they would only be applied to mechs deployed with units like the Seabees to help them with construction.

When mechs are used in real life I think they'll look more like walkers than they will mecha.

L5 Riesig from Battlefield 2142

Spoiler

T-39 Bogatyr from Battlefield 2142

Spoiler

Tiinusu X 3 - Recon Class

Spoiler

Harasser Light Asset Mech

Spoiler

[Anjian]

Mechs will probably be build with three options, with either having versions for each mode or one mech capable of all three functions.

1. Directly piloted.
2. Remotely piloted.
3. AI completely autonomous.

We may also breakdown mechs into their military functions.

1. Scout, high speed mechs, generally remotely piloted with option for human pilot. These also serve as artillery spotters and target painting. Also capable of searching for minefields.
2. Antiaircraft mechs. Requires a high rate of fire. Can be trained on ground targets. Infrared and radar tracked high rate guns and missiles.
3. Fire Support mechs, with artillery or rocket barrage purposes. Primary weapons are long range artillery and rocket weapons. These cannons have a minimum range and are not direct fire.
4. Antitank mechs. Purposedly for taking out tanks and other highly armored targets. Primary weapons are armor piercing weapons including HEAT missiles. Secondary assault capability with HE ammunition.
5. Assault mechs. Meant to destroy hardened enemy fortifications and positions and used to support infantry. Primary weapons are shorter ranged direct fire large caliber high explosive weapons. Secondary antitank capability.
6. Anti Infantry mechs. Meant to take out enemy infantry and soft shelled vehicles. High rate, small caliber weapons.
7. Command mechs, which can be used to coordinate friendly units and control of unmanned mechs. They also bring a communications network to the conflict and distressed area.
8. Recovery mechs. These carry arms. Used to recover or rescue damage mechs, tanks and wounded personnel in the battlefield. Have secondary combat functions.
9. Engineering mechs. Also uses arms. These are meant to build or remove fortifications, lay or clear minefields and IEDs. Also have secondary combat functions.
10. Logistical mechs. Also uses arms. They bring supplies to the battlefield and used to reload other mechs and tanks. They are also capable of transporting infantry and smaller mechs as well. Also have secondary combat functions.

Mechs have two levels of armament.

The first is a basic assault rifle with .50 caliber, which is intended for anti infantry. This is available for all mechs as a defensive secondary combat capability.

The second armament is the mech's primary armament that reflects its battlefield role. Support mechs won't have them.

Antitank --- Antitank Missiles or a 100mm to 120mm cannon. (AP, APFSDS, DU, APCR, HEAT with optional HE)
Artillery --- Longer ranged missiles or 152mm cannon. (HE)
Anti Aircraft --- AA missiles, quad 20mm or twin 37mm. (API or Armor Piercing Incendiary; FI or Fragmentation Incendiary)
Light Vehicular --- 40mm or 50mm (APHE or APHEBC)
Assault --- Short ranged 152mm cannon or rocket (HE).

[AWOL 01]

I think that we'll see autonomous mechs working with soldiers just to provide cover and more firepower. The mech will be very small so that it can stay with the soldiers in as many situations as possible, and it'll be controlled by hand signals or some kind of device on the soldier's rifles that will mark targets.

The manned mechs will be more like Humvees. They'll carry relatively light armament, like a .50 and grenades or even a small missile launcher. It'll have a small area inside where soldiers can ride and will provide cover while getting them where they need to go quickly.

The unmanned mechs will be controlled by officers back at a base and will be much more high-tech and carry heavy armament. They'll be similar to tanks.

All of them will use artificial muscles to keep them light, fast, efficient, and well-armored. It'll be interesting to see the different tactics they'll develop also. I could see a few mechs being deployed with tanks to flush out enemy troops and drive them to the tanks or to perform quick flanking maneuvers. These mechs would probably be biped. Without a flexible spine quad mechs just wouldn't be able to match their speed. The quad mechs would serve in an artillery role, or serve as an APC like the AT-ATs in Star Wars or Goliath in Battletech, but they'd be able to "crouch down" and walk like a spider when in a battle situation to make it a smaller target.





I also think the mech will need more than one crew member. It's feasible when the environment is simplified into a game, but on the battlefield they would need to split the responsibilities into movement and firing. I could see the pilot being positioned in the mech's hips so that he's facing where the mech is going, and the gunner/commander sitting in the turret. This would also decrease the height of the mech instead of having the entire crew on top of the legs.

[Anjian]

We used to invent these kinds of monster hounds for Chromehounds. Well these are more or less typical. I made some really monstrous types bristling with artillery.

[Anjian]

In Chromehounds, we love to invent these kinds of bird like Hounds, bipedal, bristling with cannon. They mainly make up the "soldier" type.

Edited by Anjian, 23 March 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Anjian]

Artillery mech from Armored Core V. These are the same developers from Chromehounds (and Dark Souls), so the resemblence to the other game is there.

[AkoolPopTart]

MW4:M fizzled out because PGI slapped a "This is our property now *******" sticker on the franchise making it illegal to download the game. You can still get the mods and the game (sometimes with the mods already installed) from certain sources, and since the game has been made digital its easy to give out to people as long as they have a Nividia driver installed (which is easy to do). The game can also be played online too. I guess the reason you don't hear much about it anymore is because there's a lot of prep work required in order to get it to run the way you want it to.

Hawken would make for an awesome arcade game, but its similar to COD in that its a fast paced FPS with unlimited respawns and no room for tactics or skill. Run about the dimly lit map area and shoot things until they die.

Titanfall..........

Armored Core FA was good in both story and online gameplay, but after that the franchise turned into a pile of junk. Too many OP parts and weapons that made the game practically impossible to play unless you used the infamous "Cookie-cutter" builds that everyone and their mother used, not to mention Namco Bandai's lack of support for it (In fact, the stuff PGI is doing sorta reminds me of the shenanigans NB kept pulling on us). The Campaign in VD was at least fun to play because of the abundance of mech on mech (x4) combat missions though.

Mech games will always exist as long as the demand is there. Whether or not they succeed and are able to draw in more players is up to the dev team.

Edited by AkoolPopTart, 23 March 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[Burktross]

9erRed, on 05 November 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

Greetings all,

There was that one game shown through NGNG, appeared like an updated Mech Commander with new graphics.
- They were designing it from the ground up, but most were volunteer developers. (just like MW:LL started)
BattleTech Universe: (9min video of preAlfa testing)
https://www.youtube....e&v=rk1XKuhFqao
- Even has melee attack's!, And various other combat vehicles, aircraft, and ground infantry.

But it's not first person, and your correct, there's nothing left on the market that can compete with MWO.

9erRed

Red, looks more like MA than MC, to me.
But hey, Meleeeeee!

[AWOL 01]

I never got a chance to play Chromehound cause my family has always gone with Playstation. If I had had the money I would've bought an Xbox just to play that game. It's really disappointing that they shut it down. I don't understand that at all. The only thing that seemed a little off about the game was the mechs' center of balance. Most of them seemed to be very top-heavy or just off-balance, especially the bipedal ones. That's one of the few things that I liked about Armored Core For Answer. It gave you a chance to "balance" your mech. I haven't really like Armored Core since AC3 or AC3: Silent Line when they took away Human Plus. I grew up on Armored Core (it was the first game we bought) and now it's more like Ace Combat with legs. I don't want to fly through levels, I want to lumber around in big stompy mechs! And I never thought I'd say this, but there is such a thing as too many options. Especially when the majority of them aren't used because a few of them are overpowered.

I never played Titanfall but I've only heard bad things. From what I've seen it's a disgrace to the genre.

[Anjian]

Chromehounds works on the same principle as Armored Core (same developers, FROM Software). Except that you don't boost or fly around, Chromehounds is much more terrestial and tanklike, like Battletech. But it has the same building principles --- you don't have mechs, just templates, and a whole lot of parts you buy and collect. Then in the garage, you assemble them to invent your own mech. You can be very creative with the designs, nothing can stop you from being outlandish. But you have to take them out somehow, and success and failure will gauge your design skills and your product.

The other difference that CH has over AC is that CH doesn't really have a single player story or mission. Just a tutorial, and off you are thrown directly into Community Warfare. That's right, people fighting continually over hexes until there are enough victories to turn the hex over to your faction. The CW aspects of Chromehounds are later migrated in modified form to Armored Core V and VD.

The CW aspects of Chromehounds differ from MWO in that:

Every hex or region has its own unique map. And there are plenty of maps. Huge maps.
The game has built in VOIP. However, within the game, you need to secure communcation towers of the map so you can extend your VOIP bubbles to the entire map (huge maps) so you can communicate with your team.
Has much clearer and stronger role warfare --- scouts, artillery, your main fighters, and a command vehicle for your leader that also extends the COM and VOIP bubble.
Factions can be destroyed. Capital cities can be attacked, in which you are given an urban city map for pitched street fighting. When one faction conquers all and completes the campaign, winners gets some reward and the campaign is reset.
If there is no human team opposing you, you will fight an AI team.
Sometimes, you can get treated by suddenly facing a special enemy, a monster boss also known as a special weapon.
By rotating among factions, squads can obtain parts from all three factions, so they can produce their custom hybrid builds.

Edited by Anjian, 24 March 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[extraammo]

I'm currently making a mech game were you make mechs from the ground up. Because I won't be including any official mech designs, and every mech in the game will be custom made and named, there should be no legal issues.

[AWOL 01]

Anjian,
Do we know why they shut down the servers? All the concepts in the game are awesome. One thing that I'd like to see in a mech game is customization of individual parts. In Need For Speed: Carbon you could autosculpt aftermarket parts to make them look different, from the hood to the rims to the spoiler.



It would be cool to be able to select very specific parts for your mech, like the knees or feet or shoulders, and then be able to alter them to look the way you want. It would also cut down on the number of parts needed to have adequate customization.

extraammo,
I'd really like to hear more about this game. How long have you been working on it? What type of game will it be? Are you working alone or with a team? If you'd like I could post some concept art I've drawn up over the years. I also know some programming and am majoring in Mechanical Engineering, so if you're looking for realism I may be able to help.

[Anjian]

Eventually SEGA shut down the servers because after some years, the player base shrank to a point its non sustainable.

Chromehounds doesn't eliminate, but highlight the problems of CW. You get good units overrunning average and bad units. After some time, players will quit. Or simply players quit because they want to play another game (I eventually shifted to playing Phantasy Star Universe myself).

Another problem is that this is a console game. Console games are only allowed a limited number of updates (I guess around five) before they have to pay Microsoft and Sony for additional updates. With the lack of updates, since the game doesn't really have much of an ecosystem except with paid DLC packages. you are going to die out. Some of the DLCs were balance affecting. The DLC packages are themselves not enough.

FROM Soft, brilliant developers they are, what they are not are MMO developers. At some point they wanted to move on, build more of the games for the Armored Core franchise (AC4, AC4A, ACV and ACVD came after CH), and eventually to Dark Souls and Demon Souls. Since FROM got much more success with Dark Souls than their mech franchises, their corporate overlords will make them continue to make games for Dark Souls and similar games of the same genre, like Bloodbourne.

And that is what killed all these mech games --- the lack of a sustainable ecosystem.

DOTA, League of Legends, and World of Tanks helped develop this F2P Freemium ecosystem you see today, and MWO built a core around this.

Edited by Anjian, 24 March 2015 - 07:11 PM.

[extraammo]

AWOL 01, on 24 March 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

extraammo,
I'd really like to hear more about this game. How long have you been working on it? What type of game will it be? Are you working alone or with a team? If you'd like I could post some concept art I've drawn up over the years. I also know some programming and am majoring in Mechanical Engineering, so if you're looking for realism I may be able to help.

Actually, I have a degree in ME myself . I'm working on it myself in my free time so the process is kind of slow. The general idea is building mechs by making frames from beams and mounting weapons, engines, ammo boxes, fuel, jets, armor, cockpit(s), joints, computers, sensors, gyros, capacitors, and heatsinks to the frames. Everything is physically simulated (including walking). Everything has thermal properties (Weapons create heat which is conducted through beams. Heatsinks remove heat wherever they are attached.) Devices use or generate power. There will be structural integrity and most likely deformation of armor and beams.

You will be able to tweak the walk cycle of your mech as well as make mechs with more than two legs. You will be able to make custom movements and bind them to controls (Such as melee attacks.)

Pretty much a mech sim where you can make any mech you can think of.

[AWOL 01]

Haha nice! That concept sounds awesome. How will you simulate walking with all the different possible leg configurations? Will you also allow wheels and treads?

Also, have you heard of the game Besiege? It's currently in Alpha but it allows you to create almost any machine you can imagine. Something a little more specialized towards walking and armored warfare would be a pretty great mech sim considering people have already made walking machines without special programming for it.



Here's a few of the walking machines:





I hope those help or give you inspiration!

[extraammo]

One of the best ways to get physical walking is to use gyros for stability. I've already done testing and am satisfied with the results. The IK equations I'm made allow for different proportioned legs. I even tested a mech with two legs of different proportions and it walked just fine.

When making your mech, you will have to add motor drivers for the joints and IK controllers for each leg. A locomotion controller will control multiple IK controllers and will handle the actual walking. Each of these components uses power, generates heat, and can be damaged and destroyed.

I'm heavily considering tank treads though I'm not too fond of wheels.