105 replies to this topic

[Damon Howe]

Malzel, on 28 November 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

I hear what you're saying overall, but I think this is one of the key details that's getting misunderstood. It's not about a 4-letter tag. It's not about pride, or ego, or ranks and who's in charge.

Sorry Malzel, it was too easy.

[Malzel]

SRC472, on 28 November 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Thanks for the offer about the competitive play advice. Sorry to hear that 1RDR has no competitive team anymore (If I understood that correctly).

No problem. We still have our competitive team, we just had some heavy hitters leave back in June and are searching for pilots to replace them. Once we get a few good men to fill the holes in our roster, we should be a player in the comp scene again pretty quickly.

[Jarl Dane]

Ahem.

I am sorry guys. But the 'Great Heathen Army' in the form of a single FRR Mega-Unit. Just isn't going to happen. At this time any further discussion in that direction is unwarranted.

The SoR, 1stRDR and Iron Serpent's leadership have all made it clear that at this time they think forming this sort of unit is not in their best interests. As I said earlier, I put it up to a vote in the Isengrim forms, and the Rank-and-File of the Isengrim have decidedly voted against joining a Mega-Unit. So that means we aren't going to do it either.

I mentioned previously in this thread that the Merc Star guys were creating their own Mega-Unit. That is very different than us creating one. First of all the Merc Star guys have no faction loyalty. They want to play for the faction that will generate the most rewards for them. It is as simple as that. Also, where their units are as far as skill and competitive ability are a lot more even. In their minds they are taking a handful of the best units to "game the game".

Whereas our units are at wildly different places. Some are extremely competitive, some are extremely casual and some have a mix of both. But even more importantly, there are units where the casual and competitive members are sick of playing with each other.

That recently happened in the Isengrim. We had to make a choice. Either cater to the casual or cater to the competitive. I decided to go competitive. It was a hard decision to make and we've lost people because of it.
For us to join a Mega-Unit would essentially surround ourselves with the sort of people we just separated from. Sure there would be some other competitive players from all the units. But the same problems would crop up again. People would see we are doing drops and participate, but then they want to bring their SRM/LRM treb and do 40 damage while basically ignoring any sort of instruction from the Drop Commander.

The moment we start refusing to let those people in our drops, drama ensues. There really isn't a middle path. There are people out there who want to hop in their favorite mech, shoot at stuff and log off without giving it a second thought, and when they feel themselves being ostracized for not being on the cutting edge of meta - there will be problems.

I do not want that. Nor, as the vote I put up indicated, do my people. The Isengrim are done dropping with people who don't want to play to win. It might sound rude, or elitist or whatever, but it is fair. When a guy shows up to practices, trains up specific meta mechs, puts in the work to be a successful team player, it is unfair to make him play with someone who puts in no-time and runs a terrible build because they can.

Because of all of that, we could only ever entertain the idea of merging with a unit, if they were already in agreement with that sort of ideology. And obviously, that isn't the case here.

Now, just because a Mega-Unit wont work doesn't have to mean we stop dead in our tracks here. I actually would like to form a unified FRR government, made up of all the individual groups. I've sent the SoR my initial proposal. But if other unit leaders are interested I could send you the same.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 28 November 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[Kamikaze Viking]

I think that we have the makings of great Co-operation in this thread. And As we seem to Mostly want to keep our unit Identies and separate forums.

We need a central place that WE ALL REGULARLY CHECK.
This was tried in the past I believe with the Kungsarme, but the traffic there looks really low.
Can we revive it? or make a new centralised place
What about an FRR subreddit?

[Jarl Dane]

The SoR has an Althing forum. But a FRR Sub-reddit sounds cool too.

[Damon Howe]

As MtD said, we do have a forum in-place - it just needs a little TLC.

http://spc.menschel.net/f/index.php

[Abivard]

Never mind, please disregard if already read.

Edited by Abivard, 28 November 2014 - 11:43 PM.

[SRC472]

Sorry to hear that almost all units abandoned the request to merge in game. Too bad we couldn't find a way just in case. Still I believe the topic is not entirely dead and a lot players started to think about it.

I have total understanding for the position of the Isengrim. Competitive and casual together has its difficulties. You guys can have full focus now, without hurt feelings if someone cannot bring LRMs.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I'm sticking to the FRR no matter what. It will be unlikely that I will change sides.
I'm all for making a large FRR "defense force"

[Magna Canus]

Mech The Dane, on 28 November 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Now, just because a Mega-Unit wont work doesn't have to mean we stop dead in our tracks here. I actually would like to form a unified FRR government, made up of all the individual groups. I've sent the SoR my initial proposal. But if other unit leaders are interested I could send you the same.

Hey MTD,
I understand your reasons so let me make one last counter proposal. Instead of a single FRR heathen army we make 2; one one for the highly competitive and one for the regular guys. It will be less effective as a single great army, but should serve its purpose AND still satisfy most parties involved as far as play style goes.

A single FRR competitive unit would allow the FRR to field its best talents during tournaments and having 2 great units would still allow FRR to field larger common defense forces. I would like for the FRR to have the highest chances for success before we begin CW instead of after we begin to see weaknesses in our tactics.

[Gevurah]

A few clarifications on my previous statements:
1) I believe this is valid, intelligent discussion and should continue. To me, this type of discussion is the most valuable form of prep for CW. If we can prepare our units for better distribution then we can setup a more cohesive defense. And let's be honest here - the FRR is going to be assaulted on all sides unless we get some really good alliances going with the Dracs or Steiners. I think there's a grand total of 5-7 potential warfronts we will have to deal with. It's going to be tough, at best.

2) The use of non IS mechs in prep for CW is something I consider wasted time. I recognize the value in 'learning your enemy from within' but you are losing piloting hours in the mechs you will actually be using, bottom line. It's non negotiable math on that. The marginal benefit of learning an enemy mech is pretty quickly learned in a relatively short amount of hours. The occassional use of a SCR/TBR/DWF or whatever should be fine but I see guys dropping who refuse to use anything else. They're effectively negating any chance of getting better in the mechs they need to get better in. I myself had a rude shock dropping 1.61 kdr to 1.28 over the past month trying to work out appropriate competitive builds vs the huge influx of clan mechs (especially with the morass of trials out there). I could have been kill farming in clan mechs but elected to take the hit to try to further develop my skills in a live environment against the mechs which I will likely be fighting on a regular basis. I feel it's been very effective though as the landslide loss of mechs has dwindled and begun it's upswing back to normal values for me as the builds refine. I guess we'll see which mentality shakes out better as CW comes into play.

3) While I can completely understand and respect isengrim's stance, the reality is that it's not going to happen unless you can field the precise amount of members every single time. Otherwise the devs have already stated the built in matchmaker is going to fill the void in this order:
- House loyal units (casuals/semi-competitive/non-isengrim)
- Merc corps
- And finally if nothing else is avail, lone wolves.

So while it's frustrating to lose or suffer slightly because of use of a combined arms unit - the situation on the ground in CW (as far as the devs have mentioned) is going to be combined arms unless you can field all the units necessary for an assault or defense 100% of the time.

What I'd like to see, at least, is a perhaps monthly meeting between the heads of each of the units so we can at least coordinate what assets go where. I'm hoping they implement an alliance channel or something of the like so we can communicate easily within game. Barring that, we need to at least communicate and coordinate.

For example, obviously the 1st Hussars are not the most competitive unit around. I never intended them to be when I formed them. I wanted a mishmash of talent in a place that people could feel at home with. So you end up with a middle of the road unit suitable to a number of objectives. I'm happy to see the 1st Hussar Strikers emerge as a more serious subsect of that but the vast majority of our members are casuals looking for a decent home. We provide them with a relatively simple structure that allows them to feel unit membership without all the difficult requirements of more strict units. The 1st Hussar Strikers gives a clear 'escalation path' for if they feel they want something stronger.

Isengrim however is clearly the most competitive FRR unit in existence currently, which I don't view as elitist but rather as deeply principled and a natural evolution of mmo metagaming. I'd like to see a unit like that going on the offensive in CW, specifically because they'd be wasted as a defensive unit unless it was a very high value target. That said, there's probably going to be some leftovers they will want to farm out. We used to do this with my shooting team (in the N-SSA). You'd have your best shooters on A-1 Carbine and let's say you had 3-5 show up as reserve. It's not enough to form a B-Team but you could easily farm them out to friendly units as fillers to help fill their void so they're not stuck with lone wolf pubbies. You're helping your allied groups and in turn they'll give their best to you when they've got extra. It's generally win-win since no one wants to be stuck with random guy number #5 who ends up being a complete newb or x-factor.

Obviously you want to try to match the skill levels as much as possible so you'd want to try to get to the competitive roster members first. As the old expression goes you can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot. So you want to try to get them where they'll do the most good. This is where inter-unit communication comes into play.

I guess my point is while combined unit action should be minimallized that to completely exclude it is inviting trouble. You're either going to have a ton of guys sitting on the bench who are going to get disatisfied at not being able to play or you're going to have to accept playing with other guys when you've got spares available. But hey man; it's your unit. I respect the hell out of you guys and wish you the best either way, Mech.

Good discussion, keep it coming.

[Grim DeGrim]

I'll be dropping in on mixed matches frequently if I get the chance. It will be fun. The Clans with have tons of mixed matches as well, so it will be some barn burning matches!

I love seeing a roster of teal & black.

[Magna Canus]

Gevurah, on 30 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

A few clarifications on my previous statements:
1) I believe this is valid, intelligent discussion and should continue. To me, this type of discussion is the most valuable form of prep for CW. If we can prepare our units for better distribution then we can setup a more cohesive defense. And let's be honest here - the FRR is going to be assaulted on all sides unless we get some really good alliances going with the Dracs or Steiners. I think there's a grand total of 5-7 potential warfronts we will have to deal with. It's going to be tough, at best.

2) The use of non IS mechs in prep for CW is something I consider wasted time. I recognize the value in 'learning your enemy from within' but you are losing piloting hours in the mechs you will actually be using, bottom line. It's non negotiable math on that. The marginal benefit of learning an enemy mech is pretty quickly learned in a relatively short amount of hours. The occassional use of a SCR/TBR/DWF or whatever should be fine but I see guys dropping who refuse to use anything else. They're effectively negating any chance of getting better in the mechs they need to get better in. I myself had a rude shock dropping 1.61 kdr to 1.28 over the past month trying to work out appropriate competitive builds vs the huge influx of clan mechs (especially with the morass of trials out there). I could have been kill farming in clan mechs but elected to take the hit to try to further develop my skills in a live environment against the mechs which I will likely be fighting on a regular basis. I feel it's been very effective though as the landslide loss of mechs has dwindled and begun it's upswing back to normal values for me as the builds refine. I guess we'll see which mentality shakes out better as CW comes into play.

3) While I can completely understand and respect isengrim's stance, the reality is that it's not going to happen unless you can field the precise amount of members every single time. Otherwise the devs have already stated the built in matchmaker is going to fill the void in this order:
- House loyal units (casuals/semi-competitive/non-isengrim)
- Merc corps
- And finally if nothing else is avail, lone wolves.

So while it's frustrating to lose or suffer slightly because of use of a combined arms unit - the situation on the ground in CW (as far as the devs have mentioned) is going to be combined arms unless you can field all the units necessary for an assault or defense 100% of the time.

What I'd like to see, at least, is a perhaps monthly meeting between the heads of each of the units so we can at least coordinate what assets go where. I'm hoping they implement an alliance channel or something of the like so we can communicate easily within game. Barring that, we need to at least communicate and coordinate.

For example, obviously the 1st Hussars are not the most competitive unit around. I never intended them to be when I formed them. I wanted a mishmash of talent in a place that people could feel at home with. So you end up with a middle of the road unit suitable to a number of objectives. I'm happy to see the 1st Hussar Strikers emerge as a more serious subsect of that but the vast majority of our members are casuals looking for a decent home. We provide them with a relatively simple structure that allows them to feel unit membership without all the difficult requirements of more strict units. The 1st Hussar Strikers gives a clear 'escalation path' for if they feel they want something stronger.

Isengrim however is clearly the most competitive FRR unit in existence currently, which I don't view as elitist but rather as deeply principled and a natural evolution of mmo metagaming. I'd like to see a unit like that going on the offensive in CW, specifically because they'd be wasted as a defensive unit unless it was a very high value target. That said, there's probably going to be some leftovers they will want to farm out. We used to do this with my shooting team (in the N-SSA). You'd have your best shooters on A-1 Carbine and let's say you had 3-5 show up as reserve. It's not enough to form a B-Team but you could easily farm them out to friendly units as fillers to help fill their void so they're not stuck with lone wolf pubbies. You're helping your allied groups and in turn they'll give their best to you when they've got extra. It's generally win-win since no one wants to be stuck with random guy number #5 who ends up being a complete newb or x-factor.

Obviously you want to try to match the skill levels as much as possible so you'd want to try to get to the competitive roster members first. As the old expression goes you can't stiffen a bucket of spit with a handful of buckshot. So you want to try to get them where they'll do the most good. This is where inter-unit communication comes into play.

I guess my point is while combined unit action should be minimallized that to completely exclude it is inviting trouble. You're either going to have a ton of guys sitting on the bench who are going to get disatisfied at not being able to play or you're going to have to accept playing with other guys when you've got spares available. But hey man; it's your unit. I respect the hell out of you guys and wish you the best either way, Mech.

Good discussion, keep it coming.

An excellent post with which I wholeheartedly agree.

[Malzel]

I hear what you're saying, Gev, and I agree that through a mutual meeting place like the Allting or some similar forum thread, different FRR units should be able to "loan out" good pilots if another unit comes up short, or coordinate nights where different units cover different planets. I think Dane and both I agree that would be a good idea. We have the SoR's Allting forum to use, unless a clear and better alternative makes itself clear. Honestly, if it's just leader-to-leader, we could use MWO forum messages.

I think the recurring debate is that the officers of our more casual groups are trying to strike a compromise with a sort of half-way merger, and what Dane and I are trying to explain as leaders of the more competitive groups is that competitive groups aren't forged by half-measures. Comp squads require real commitment, either you're in the unit or you're not. Fielding a 12-man made of 3 different FRR units is still a "combined arms" company, to use your phrasing, and will never be as effective as 12 members from one unit, which is why the half-way merger is hitting resistance.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't strike a balance between casual and competitive in your individual unit. The 1RDR did that very successfully for a while, with an active casual base and a successful comp squad on the side. What I am saying is that each unit has to be responsible for their own competitive team. Sure, we could occasionally loan out players to each other when needed, but you can't have a competitive team that relies on other competitive teams to prop it up. Either you have a comp squad that can stand on its own, or you don't have a comp squad yet. You can borrow from others to help in the beginning, but that can't be your game plan.

TL;DR A place to coordinate our separate units is good, but forming 12-man teams from separate units is a splash of Coke in your glass of Jack: it might make a fun cocktail, but in the end you're still watering down your whiskey.

Edited by Malzel, 30 November 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

Magnakanus, on 30 November 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

Hey MTD,
I understand your reasons so let me make one last counter proposal. Instead of a single FRR heathen army we make 2; one one for the highly competitive and one for the regular guys. It will be less effective as a single great army, but should serve its purpose AND still satisfy most parties involved as far as play style goes.

A single FRR competitive unit would allow the FRR to field its best talents during tournaments and having 2 great units would still allow FRR to field larger common defense forces. I would like for the FRR to have the highest chances for success before we begin CW instead of after we begin to see weaknesses in our tactics.

Okay. Even if I were to agree to this, it appears the other units are not interested. So what we'd really be doing here is just delineating the Isengrim and 1st Hussars into a Comp unit and Casual unit. At this moment, for the most apart, it appears that is already how it is set up.

The 1st Hussars is already (mostly) a causal unit and the Isengrim is already a gung-ho competitive.

Gevurah, on 30 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

A few clarifications on my previous statements:
1) I believe this is valid, intelligent discussion and should continue. To me, this type of discussion is the most valuable form of prep for CW. If we can prepare our units for better distribution then we can setup a more cohesive defense. And let's be honest here - the FRR is going to be assaulted on all sides unless we get some really good alliances going with the Dracs or Steiners. I think there's a grand total of 5-7 potential warfronts we will have to deal with. It's going to be tough, at best.

Steiner Alliance is a must. Dracs are weak though, go for blood.

Gevurah, on 30 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

2) The use of non IS mechs in prep for CW is something I consider wasted time.

Completely agree. When possible the Isen always bring all IS mechs. No point in getting good at dropdecks that include Clan Mechs, as they will be useless when CW hits.

Gevurah, on 30 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

3) While I can completely understand and respect isengrim's stance, the reality is that it's not going to happen unless you can field the precise amount of members every single time. Otherwise the devs have already stated the built in matchmaker is going to fill the void in this order:
- House loyal units (casuals/semi-competitive/non-isengrim)
- Merc corps
- And finally if nothing else is avail, lone wolves.

A lot here. I think a unified FRR government built around the unit leaders of permanently contracted corps would be a great idea. It would give needed stability and greater functionality to the FRR faction. Lots of good could be done with this in the right hands.

As far as mixed drops. The Isengrim can handle this, especially if we were to get the other units we're dropping with on the same page. If they knew our drop deck and had some idea of how to utilize it, then we could really do good things. That could too much work for us though, I don't know.

[Grim DeGrim]

Get the leaders together and start the alliance talk now with other houses. Are there any MERC CORPS willing to fight FRR at the start.

Bear in mind that we don't need the "best" or all "comp" groups. We need soldiers that will defend across all time zones, and we need a spear tip pushing in a unified direction.

[Grim DeGrim]

mithril coyote, on 16 November 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

FRR for life.. and if the FRR gets conquered? FRR-in-exile.

Sweet. Should make this my sig line!

[Jarl Dane]

Grim DeGrim, on 30 November 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Get the leaders together and start the alliance talk now with other houses. Are there any MERC CORPS willing to fight FRR at the start.

Bear in mind that we don't need the "best" or all "comp" groups. We need soldiers that will defend across all time zones, and we need a spear tip pushing in a unified direction.

Could probably separate it into separate timezone commands. Who is in-charge of what is going on during Euro peak hours, NA peak hours and Oceanic peak hours. Kind of like Field Marshalls for Time Zones..

[Abivard]

I have found that trying to cater to everyone leaves everyone unhappy.

Carefree and fun gamers and comp gamers are not going to do as well in a mixed unit as they are a dedicated unit.

Even when the unit has a large enough player base and strives to be unbiased, it just does not work as well in practice as
A Unit that is mainly dedicated/ focused on a Competitive CW aspect or a fun aspect.

I would really like all the FRR units to work together and even though it might sound counter intuitive, dividing into comp and non comp units is a good start.

Think about it.

[Richard Warts]

Just saying, if the 228th could make it work why can't Rasalhague? They are a huge group divided into two branches, the competitive and the casual.

So, sometimes when you see a 12 man of 228th and you stomp them chances are you were up against the casual sector. When you face another 12 man of 228th and they crush you, chances are they were the competitive branch.

Food for thought.

Edited by Tabu 73, 02 December 2014 - 07:39 AM.