47 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

And the devil negotiated Russ promoted BAP buff has now neutered the Magic Jesus Box a little...

Oh the hilarious irony.

[evil713]

RalphVargr, on 05 November 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

My airplane carried an ALQ-131, and countermeasures detection gear. Guess which worked better?

Hint: 'home on jam".

ive found that MechWarrior never really advanced tech wise past its origin in 1984. Anti-Radiation missiles as far as I can tell were not readily available till a year after. (admittedly a quick google search was used and that's the first number I found.)

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

If ECM is the Jesus Box, is BAP the Satan box?

[Mcgral18]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 05 November 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

If ECM is the Jesus Box, is BAP the Satan box?

It was the fairly useless box; now it's the moderately useful box, whose sole purpose is to counter the Jesus Box, with a couple insignificant attributes on top of that.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mcgral18, on 05 November 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

It was the fairly useless box; now it's the moderately useful box, whose sole purpose is to counter the Jesus Box, with a couple insignificant attributes on top of that.

Wiish they were equal in power lol

[GernMiester]

BAP and ECM need to be closer to the same range and 360 is to much for both. 180m to 225m
BAP is active and should give away the mech using it like an active ping gives away a submarines position inside its effective range. Both should toggle, ECM the same as it is now and BAP on or off.
ECM was crushed as any mech can now make it useless at 2 times its effective range.

I have BAP or ECM on all my mechs and have plenty of experience on either side of the coin. If you didn't have BAP or ECM already, you probably did it wrong. ECM will still keep me safe at the ranges I tend to be at in my Spider. BAP will drop that Atlas's ECM before he knows what hit him and at 360M I can stay safe and watch him drop to LRMS.

I dont think this change will change my playstyle. In my opinion, 360m is too far.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

how about we leave BAP alone until the devs can revamp ECM into what its really suppsoed to do. besides im surprsied anyones being affected by BAP at all, i found the typical ECM noob to be a selfinsh gimp who runs away form his teammates.

[Eboli]

Out of interest, based upon RalphVagr's comment about countermeasures equipment acting as homing equipment, what would people's feelings be if the ECM equipped mech can identify that a BAP equipped mech has come within its interference range?

Currently we can by use our radar tell that when an ECM mech comes within 180m of us so maybe it is fair that something similar appears for the ECM equipped mech.

Just an idea and I hardly run ECM mechs myself so this is not a self interest idea.

Cheers!
Eboli

Edited by Eboli, 05 November 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And so begins the wave of "BAP is OP!" threads...

BAP isnt OP at all. Its ECM thats OP. BAP Is just a poor way of trying to balance ECM. This system of hard counters MWO has is simply not fun. Hard counters arnt fun in any game that ive ever played.

LRMs getting hard countered by ECM = not fun
ECM getting hard countered by any number of things = not fun

A better system is one where everything is balanced enough where hard counters simply arnt needed anymore and soft counters can be employed instead.

1) ECM should only stealth the mech its equipped on. No more magical missile super stealth shield.
2) passive sensor mode should be added to the game to give mechs without ECM a way to gain stealth (albeit with the downside of shutting off their targeting and detailed target info).
3) LRMs should be balanced around soft counters like AMS and flak consumables rather than the hard counter of ECM. Specifically, indirect LRMs need to be toned down; while direct LRMs, particularly ones with Artemis, need a buff.
4) Advanced Target Decay and Radar Deprivation should be based around a soft counter interaction rather than Radar Deprivation hard countering ATD. Again hard counters arnt fun.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[Slepnir]

Hey to the OP, yes Iwill give up my BAP cancelling out you're ECM, just as soon as PGI reverts it to act like it is supposed to in battletech-you know where it does nothing to prevent locks but removes the bonuses for NARC, TAG and artemis IV. instead of acting like stealth armor and a null signature system like it does now.

[evil713]

Slepnir, on 05 November 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Hey to the OP, yes Iwill give up my BAP cancelling out you're ECM, just as soon as PGI reverts it to act like it is supposed to in battletech-you know where it does nothing to prevent locks but removes the bonuses for NARC, TAG and artemis IV. instead of acting like stealth armor and a null signature system like it does now.

ok we add stealth armor to the game, since I believe canon wise null sig is like super-lostech.

looking at sarna I propose these stats:

Same armor value as standard, 8 internal slots taken by armor. 20% penalty to heat loss, must be covered by ecm in disrupt mode to be current level of ecm untargetable.

new mechanic for ecm. ecm will instead of making unit unlockable will mess with enemy rangefinder.

rangefinder will alter according to rank of ecm within +- of ecm level, so an ecm rank 1 will affect rangefinder by plus or minus 60 meters within that field. BAP TAG and UAV will counter, NARC will not.

Edited by evil713, 06 November 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[Glythe]

I think the BAP is in a good place to counter ECM but I do think it needs some slight tweak so you don't always want to carry it. For example BAP should maybe prevent radar deprivation. Why?

Think about the BAP like active sonar. Using Active Sonar makes you stand out in the water....So you become a beacon for LRMs. Maybe you even reduce lock on time for streaks and LRMS by 25% (Stacking with Artemis).

Everything good needs to be a choice you make. It's good if you do ______ and don't do ______. ECM before was so great because it had no downside and almost no counters. Let's not make BAP become so good that it ruins ECM mechs completely. So Yes I am asking for a BAP nerf.... just not what the OP wanted.

[Duncan1dah0]

I like the idea of BAP homing in on the ECM source. I also think buffing BAP was needed. It really didn't do anything before. I do think that the 360 might be a little too far. I'm going to start testing BAP on the spider 5V. Lord knows there is nothing other than jump jets that you can add to it. (ok, maybe AMS, but I'll save that for experiment 2.)

[Willard Phule]

evil713, on 05 November 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Ok there needs to be a bit of fine tuning on this.

BAP should not cancel my ecm. It should defeat my ecm.

I explain, right now BAP will turn off my ecm if I get within a certain distance.

This is a bit overkill. BAP should act like a counter yes, but only to the mech using it. However in MWO everybody has C3, so I propose this.

1. BAP only works on the mech that equips it.

2. BAP counters ecm only on the mech that equips it.

3. Whatever the mech with BAP targets is considered not covered by ecm. Other friendly mechs can target the BAP target normally due to C3.

4. BAP equipped mech will not share targeting data if under enemy ecm.

This change makes scouting more important and a reward similar to TAG should be implemented, acquirable only if that target is under ECM.

The range and targeting speed bonuses would remain as it Is now.

I agree completely. And none of it is beyond PGI's abilities. +1

evil713, on 05 November 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Addendum:

ECM now uses levels similar to clan targeting computers.

ECM levels 1 to 5, each level adds 60m to the jamming radius, level 5 capping at 300.

ECM level 1 weighs 1.5 tons, each level adds 1 ton to the weight capping at 5.5 tons.

I'm not sure if I dig the range extension. I bet it'd work great for the group queue where everyone can coordinate what they're bringing. It'd suck for the solo queue.

Perhaps increasing strength by 10% per level? Work with me here. There's a cap on ECM strength....eventually the Angel system will be in play and it counts as 2 ECM units. But, two mechs at 150% each would require three BAP/CAP equipped mechs to counter. THAT could happen in the group queue and the scenario by itself would be uncommon in the solo queue.

evil713, on 05 November 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Addendum 2:

Stealth Armor is added to game stats are as follows:

Stealth armor has same armor value as standard armor.

Stealth armor takes 8 internal slots.

Stealth armor adds a 20% penalty to heat loss. Heat loss only happens when guardian ecm is active in disrupt mode.

Stealth armor only makes mech untargetable when in a guardian ecm field in disrupt mode.

Stealth armor doesn't come out for a while. Remember, it'd 3049-3050ish. And that's not really how it works, anyway. Besides, that's WAY beyond PGI's ability to make happen. Remember, these are the guys that brought you Ghost Heat, the Matchmaker, Canadian Elo and other wonderful things to fit in your bum.

evil713, on 05 November 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

New mechanic for ecm. Ecm will instead of making unit unlockable will mess with enemy rangefinder.

Rangefinder will alter according to rank of ecm within +- of ecm level, so an ecm rank 1 will affect rangefinder by plus or minus 60 meters within that field.

BAP TAG and UAV will counter this effect, NARC will not.

Actually, classify this as "electronic misinformation" and add it to the whole strength increase thing. Each level of ECM gives you a 10% of effecting the enemy and sending erroneous information. Not just range but class, weapons, everything. Imagine looking at a Raven....STARING AT HIM....and your computer tells you he's an Orion with 24 small lasers. That'd be pretty cool, actually.

evil713, on 05 November 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

This has the effect of tabletop affecting accuracy tables ingame, generating misses.

Option to be added to either set/lock rangefinder or turn rangefinder off. If off will lock guns to infinity range and disable LRM use.

Downside to that last little bit is the whole generating misses thing. Dude, if PGI had the ability to change the pinpoint damage we've got right now....don't you think they would have? This has been an issue since day 1. I know it, you know it, Bishop Steiner knows it and....PGI knows it. There's really not a lot they can do. They're using 3rd party software (the Cryengine) that they have very little experience with. Their support with the engine developers is useful but limited. Half of the crap they're introducing into the game they're cobbling together all by themselves, in Canadian, and implementing. That's why some of it is kind of borked. It is what it is.

I still dig giving additional bennies to ECM users, but the Group Queue is NOT the end-all, be-all of Mechwarrior Online. PGI has focused on them for far too long now. The Solo Queue is the original queue. It needs some attention.

[evil713]

Willard Phule ive been under the impression were closer to 3052. Draconis combine would be out of the prototype armor phase and going into the basic stealth armor phase by now.

we should also have the folloing techs:

is triple strength myomer.

is silver bullet gauss rifle

clan laser heatsinks.

is Thunder lrm

and next year we should be getting:

is Blue Shield Particle Field Damper

is Armor-Piercing Autocannon

[Apnu]

Over the Halloween weekend, I was sorely wishing the BAP change was in. MM kept putting me in games where one team had 0-1 ECM while facing 3+ ECM. 2/3 of my 52 games were like this. I kept track. It was a sea of DDCs and every flipping light mech with ECM. MM doesn't consider tech when making its team decisions but when ECM is massed like that, breaking it is impossible, TAG requires LOS, but if you're light on ECM, exposing yourself to TAG that DDC was a death sentence. Sending a light in to cancel the ECM when there's 2 DDCs and a RVN-L in the death ball was also a death sentence. Bringing BAP to 120m of the ECM mech to cancel is to stand in the middle of the death ball and die. Had BAP been useful, there would have been less stomps. As it was the event was stupidly lopsided. I didn't have one close game. Whomever had the most ECM won most of the time.

Damn happy about the BAP buff.

Edited by Apnu, 06 November 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Apnu]

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Willard Phule ive been under the impression were closer to 3052. Draconis combine would be out of the prototype armor phase and going into the basic stealth armor phase by now.

We're not. Its still 3049, the clock was reset and paused. It won't move again until CW actually launches.

[Willard Phule]

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Willard Phule ive been under the impression were closer to 3052. Draconis combine would be out of the prototype armor phase and going into the basic stealth armor phase by now.

we should also have the folloing techs:

is triple strength myomer.

Virtually useless unless you've got some kind of physical attack. Since collision damage and DFA are not viable, it's kind of pointless.

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

is silver bullet gauss rifle

Not sure what you mean by this one. The only Gauss anything the IS had that is any different at all from Clan is the "Light Gauss." And that doesn't come out until after Tukayyid.

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

clan laser heatsinks.

Mechanically, no different than any other sort of heatsink. Doubt if it would make any sort of usefull difference. It never did in TT.

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

is Thunder lrm

Been waiting for those for a while. Would change Assault/Conquest, wouldn't it? Seed the area around the base and walk away.

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

and next year we should be getting:

is Blue Shield Particle Field Damper

No clue what this is. Unless it was in an obscure novel, I've never even heard of such a thing. It's definitely not in any of the rulebooks.

evil713, on 06 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

is Armor-Piercing Autocannon

It's actually Armor Piercing ammunition but it would be cool. Basically, in TT, each hit gives a chance at a critical hit regardless of armor on the location. The higher the AC caliber, the higher the chance. Doesn't mean you can't slap a UAC2 on a VTOL and go to town from long range, though.

[Lykaon]

I would opt for a near complete overhaul of the information warfare mechanics and LRMs.


Firstly ECM needs to be defined as a countermeasure for support and enhancing electronics.ECM should never have been the best AMS and group stealth tool it is.ECM from day one should have been a device to limit the enemy's use of enhancing and support electronics.

The problem was back when ECM was deployed nearly every feature ECM should have been designed to counter was not developed to the point that it was worth using never mind worrying about countering.As a result ECM was granted some absurd superpowers to create a purpose for ECM rather than develope the systems ECM was meant to counter.

SO in that vein we start with creating a purpose for ECM that isn't super AMS and group stealth superpowers.

Start with beagle active probe and the clan active probe.The BAP should be an ACTIVE PROBE not a sorta radar module thingy that is an ECM counter as well.

BAP proposal...

BAP decreases the time to display critical data on a target by 50%

BAP decrease missile lock times for LRMs and SSRMs by 50%

BAP increases active sensor range by 20%

BAP detects all enemy mechs (even shut down mechs) within a forward line of sight cone with a range of 120m (150m for clan).Any enemy mechs within this cone are detected regardless of line of sight.


Next up is NARC. At this time I feel NARC is doing what it was always suppose to do.No changes for NARC. except of course NARC no longer counters ECM.


TAG: TAG will lose it's ECM counter ability and ECM will also lose any ability to negativley effect a TAG.A TAG will function as a pulse.ie. when a target is hit by a TAG the TAG transmits a data pulse that is active for 1 second and renews every second if the TAG is on the target.This allows for very brief interuptions of TAG targeting while maintaining the TAG effect on a target.


Artemis fire control system.

When an SRM launcher is equiped with Artemis the missile spread is tightened for a more accurate grouping.

When an LRM launcher is equiped with Artemis the Artemis has differing effects based on the launch mode of the LRMs.

Indirectly fired LRMs benefit from a tighter grouping.Directly fired LRMs have their projectile speeds improved (thus making LRMs more competative as direct fire weapons)


LRMs require some tunning as well.

First we should revert the LRM projectile speeds to previous levels.The Artemis system will be the means of attaining high velocity LRMs for direct fire.

Next we need to look at the ease of indirect fire LRMs.As it stands now I feel the ability to target and fire LRMs via any friendly mech's sensor lock is hampering role warfare and cheapens information warfare.

I propose the following criteria be met to target LRMs for indirect fire.

The target must be effected by a NARC beacon or currently effected by a TAG.

The target must be within sighting effects of a BAP or active UAV.

The target must be within line of sight of a base defense turret or a mech equiped with a command console or a Clan Targeting Computer of level 2 or greater.

These criteria are easy to meet yet still require that some intentional activity is done to allow for the indirect fire of LRMs.

Now that we have some nice support electronics that actually do useful things we will want our enemies to stop doing all those useful things.

Now we have ECM.

ECM should be altered to have the following effects.(specifics left open for tweaking)

1) counter the effects of NARC,BAP,Artemis and Command Consoles and Clan Targeting computers.
2) Increase missile lock times on protected targets
3) Increase critical data acquisition on protected targets
4) Cause potential deviation of artillery and air strikes used within ECM effects (countered by active UAV use)
5) ECM may be set to ECCM mode to counter enemy ECM use.

In addition a new mech module added to grant a mech equiped with both an ECM and the module to have the range they can be detected by the enemy reduced.(restoring the stealth feature of ECM for ONLY the ECM equiped mech.This I feel encourages ECM recon activlity)

Edited by Lykaon, 07 November 2014 - 03:32 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

I think there are some interesting ideas in here that would add a lot more depth to MWO.

Scalable ECM, Active and passive sensors returned...a more in depth sensor system would be nice. Instead of every mech automatically having c3.