73 replies to this topic

[CompproB237]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Founder's badge cannot be removed on the player-side at this time as it is set by user group rather than through the badge system we later created for Phoenix and improved upon for Clans. I can always manually set it to Member, if you so desire.

Remove my badge of shame then.

[Majorfatboy]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Your account has a total of $189.95 in purchases on record, the last of which was made over a year ago.

$120.00 USD for Legendary Founders package, proven by the gold badge of shame under My name.
$80.00 USD for Phoenix Overlord package, proven by the red star of shame under My name.
$99.00 USD for 25,000 MC package:


Now, I'm not a math guy, but I'm pretty sure 120 plus 80 plus 100 (rounding up) equals 300.

FAIL

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

To put some context on the matter...were we a retail boxed game, you would have paid roughly equivalent to this much for a Collector's Edition and Expansion to the game. In such a scenario, we would also be unable to offer new content as often as we do right now in the free-to-play model. Retail game stores have also traditionally turned down refunds where-ever the game has been opened and played.

If this were a boxed retail game, You also would not be able to go in after-purchase and alter said software.
I'm thinking about My copy of Sonic the Hedgehog 3. I can pop that cartridge in the slot and it still plays exactly the same as it did 20 years ago. Now if it were PGI...

We've downgraded the graphics, as some parts of the game were simply over-taxing the Zilog 80 of the Genesis, even though these awesome graphics were a major selling point for the software.

The players that don't want to work for a win were complaining about Carnival Night Zone, so We pulled it, even though you already paid for it.

"Yes, I did think that You were getting to many rings with the electric shield, so we nerfed it, even though all the review mags already covered it"

"Tails's flying was our position at the time, but we've decided it was OP, and nerfed the little fox *******."

"At launch, You'll only get the first three zones, but don't worry! Phase two of Floating island warfare will totally be out in three months"

I could go on, BUT WAIT! That game did receive additional content, Sonic & Knuckles, which could add new content to sonic 3, or be played on it's own.
And then there's all the PC software I have, where I can chose weather or not to update / expand.
If this were a boxed retail game, I wouldn't be complaining, because the game wouldn't be forcibly altered slowly over the course of years without My consent.

FAIL.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Subscription models would also offer a similar perk, the difference there being that in the time you have been a member with us, you would have actually spent upwards of $400 to $500 simply to have access to the game. Here, you get that for free, and the decision to pre-order early access to 'Mechs or to buy cosmetics or boosters is left in your hands. While cancellation of future service can often readily take place, refunds are also generally not available on past months in this system.

Except that this isn't a subscription issue. It's bait and switch.

FAIL.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

That all said, we aren't technically able to refund you:

• Your purchases were all made before our separation from our publisher. Any purchases made before Labour Day 2014 are inaccessible to our current Support team, as they were directed to the billing systems of IGP.
  
• Even were we to have access to this system, refunds would be dependant on the method of purchase used; Some systems, such as PaySafeCard, are non-refundable through and through. Others, such as PayPal, will lock down and archive payments after 30 days.

Red tape and shifting, nothing more. Of course You can issue a refund. The fact is that a consumer (Me), paid 300 usd for a piece of software. Your accounting system and business structure (Or lack there of) is not My burden.




FAIL.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Even were we technically able to, there's also concern regarding the legitimacy of the grounds for refund you have presented:

• There are no signs on your account of otherwise normal purchase reversal situations such as duplicate purchases.
  
• Our Terms of Use, which you have agreed to in order to play the game, explicitly state that your purchases are non-refundable. This is simply an over-arching policy which allows us the freedom to give refunds at our discretion according to the situation of the player.
  
• Our previous exceptions to that no-refund policy allowed for refunds for players technically unable to play the game at all. As you have played over 1000 matches since you joined us, this is not the case.
  
• Our previous policy also allowed flexibility on refunds where-ever it was a pre-order which had yet to be delivered. We still maintain this policy for those who wish to back out of a Collection purchase before it is added to their account, though we note that all of your pre-orders have been delivered and used in-game.
  
• While we have been expanding on our hard money refund policies as we address situations case-by-case: Gameplay and balance reasons will never be made an exception to this rule, simply because doing so categorically makes it more difficult for us to maintain our right to continue to update the game.
  
• Added to that, neither your home region nor British Columbia maintain laws which contradict the above policies and require a refund in situations of buyer's remorse, at least not when the last purchase was made over a year ago. While we are not obligated to adhere to the refund laws of foreign nations, we have recently been reserving and making use of our right to choose to do so on a case-by-case basis.

Yadda yadda yadda, The ToS only covers the developer, not the customer, and the customer is not allowed to dictate terms of their own, This is all covered in My email.




FAIL.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Coming back around to the freemium discussion: This is one way we are distancing ourselves from the traditional Freemium model. Those with experience with mobile freemium games may recall a time when it was impossible to refund any F2P game purchase, let alone get more free stuff than the game typically allows. For example, while we were unable to offer you a hard money refund, we were able to appreciate some of your concerns, including regarding the stock Centurion pattern, and provided you with free MC to help you buy a new Camo Spec for your Centurion.

Which was but one complaint out of a laundry-list of others, and did not address My refund demand in the least.

FAIL.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Otherwise, since you have mentioned you feel our coding is amateur, you are more than welcome to apply for our Tools Engineer position and show us what kind of skills you can add to the team to help us improve MWO. Please note that most of our positions require a minimum of 2-3 years experience in a relevant position as well as relevant education to the job.

I may not be a gourmand chef, but I can tell when someone's burnt My burger.
I'm not an ASE certified auto mechanic, but I can tell when my mechanic didn't put My muffler on right.
I'm not a musician, but I can tell when someone's out of key.
I may not have an IPC spec certificate (yet), but I can tell when a smd cap is lifting off it's pads.

The "let's see You do a better job" line is the last gasp of the defeated.


EDIT: Image link FAIL.

Edited by Majorfatboy, 07 November 2014 - 04:29 PM.

[Punkass]

My thoughts on recent events in this thread.

[CompproB237]

Majorfatboy, on 07 November 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Your account has a total of $xxx.xx in purchases on record, the last of which was made over a year ago.

*snip* Legendary Founders package, proven by the gold badge of shame under My name.
*snip* Phoenix Overlord package, proven by the red star of shame under My name.
*snip* for 25,000 MC package:

Now, I'm not a math guy, but I'm pretty sure [these figures total up to what I said].

Well, that argument could have been avoided...

Thanks for adjusting your statement after our conversation though, Niko.

[Goosfraba]

Majorfatboy, on 07 November 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Stuff.

So, what you are saying is that you might be a little bit dissatisfied with the service, am I right?

[Vassago Rain]

Bilbo, on 07 November 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Unless you volunteer false information I imagine you are right.

CompproB237, on 07 November 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Isn't that private, proprietary information? I thought that wasn't supposed to made public unless given permission.

Oh, Niko, when will you learn...

[ArchAngelWC]

Niko...learn...ahah thats almost as amusing as the concept Heffay is not a paid shill

[Arkbird_]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

• Our previous exceptions to that no-refund policy allowed for refunds for players technically unable to play the game at all. As you have played over 1000 matches since you joined us, this is not the case.

Really? Guess I missed this memo. Would've been a founder in closed beta knowing this (or maybe this is a newer policy?) . My computer at the time did not inspire confidence in my ability to be a founder but this policy would have.... had I known about it. :/ oh well.

[Mattiator]

Quote

-thread-

I think someone hit a nerve.

Edited by Mattiator, 08 November 2014 - 04:24 AM.

[StompingOnTanks]

Majorfatboy, on 07 November 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. A poorly written, convoluted, pointless pile of amateur code is not the same thing as complexity. if waddling Your 100 ton backside to the center of a tiny arena and clamping down on the alpha strike key is Your idea of complex, then You're in the wrong line of work.

That's the fastest way to get killed in MWO, actually.

[StandingCow]

Niko showing once again why he has no business interacting with the community. How many times have you escalated situations now instead of deescalating?

Try to act professional for once.

[StompingOnTanks]

Niko - I'm no mod, but the correct thing to do in this situation is apologize for angering Major and diffusing the situation as best you can. Not sure if you say this in Canada but "the customer is always right".

Of course I just skimmed over most of this so I may be missing something.

Edited by StompingOnTanks, 08 November 2014 - 07:01 AM.

[Punkass]

You know, instead of making some petty attack on MajorFatBoy in order to discredit him somehow, he could have just stayed on topic. I find it sad that the CM is the one responsible for attempting to derail the thread instead of keeping it on topic. Now we end up discussing the CM's people skills instead of the pitfalls of freemium gaming.

Just because MajorFatBoy gives up some right to privacy because he made some generalized claim about how much he spent on MWO, doesn't mean you should post some of his purchase records publicly to correct him. If I make some generalized claim about where I live, does that give you the right to post where I actually live? There is a difference between whether or not you CAN do that and whether or not you SHOULD do that. It may be an ethical grey area, but you should still side on the choice that does the least potential harm.

[StompingOnTanks]

Back on topic?

My general dislike of the Free-To-Play model comes from my extensive experience with MMOFPS games. While they can be fun on their own, their quality just doesn't compare to one-purchase games like CoD, Battlefield, Metro 2033, or even Counter Strike. Which is sad, because most MMOFPS games are based off of Counter Strike in some form yet somehow wind up being worse than it.

Most have pretty graphics and solid gameplay for what they are, but they're very repetitive, new guns and equipment is usually far too expensive and requires a massive grind, customization doesn't really mean anything, and most are swamped with sub-bar guns that easily lose out to top tier weapons, which are nearly always the M4A1, AK-47, Desert Eagle pistol and AWM sniper rifle or their in-game equivalent.

They're also P2W, so you can buy guns with more power, more bullets and extra features like silencers or scopes for real money only. You can buy body armor too which allows you to take twice as much damage before dying and almost every premium player I met plays a female character with gravity defying D-cup boobs and ass, dressed in something that probably makes the female player base vomit, also payed for with premium cash. (I don't mind pretty females in games but c'mon, let's be realistic here). So you could be having a pretty good game with some decent folks before Skintight Bodysuit McPremiumPants jumps into the game and then it turns into a massacre for the other team.

Of course, not all MMOFPS games are this bad (Soldier Front 2 was particularly fun and fair too), but unfortunately that sums up far too many of them.

Anyway, rant over. Happy time now.

Edit: Come to think of it, I'll go reinstall Soldier Front 2 and see if it's improved any, I really liked that one.

Edited by StompingOnTanks, 08 November 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[MadLibrarian]

I am not really trying to defend Niko or PGI here, but the truth is always relevant.

Correcting incorrect info in the interest of explaining the situation is precisely what I'd expect a CSR to do. It just shouldn't have been done here in public . Either way, Niko removed the info and apologized for the oversight. How does this merit several more posts trying to tell him how to do his job?

@majorfatboy, Software is special, especially without a retail box, so it is more like rental than purchasing. Would you really expect a refund for a year's home rental after you found serious termite damage in December , and even from a new owner? Take it up with IGP, you should probably be blaming most of this on them anyway.

@punkass, you might consider rereading the posts between major and niko. I find it hard to believe you could read Major's first post and come to the conclusion that it was Niko who started the digression from topic and aggression. Doesn't take 20/20 vision to see that the insults flow in one direction.

I appears that some people might simply be looking for new opportunities to express their own discontent by piling on whenever it seems even a little bit topical.

That said, the triple digit prices people paid might have a little something to do with the vehemence of their vitriol.

Remember what Jesus the Christ and Gautama the Buddha said: " don't be a jerk ".

@StompingOnTanks I agree. I think MMOFPS is a bad genre for f2p because it becomes very obvious when content is p2w. If competition is the goal, allowing people to pay for advantages invalidates the possibility of competitiveness

On topic:
I think the "benefits" of f2p are mostly just a smokescreen for the primary benefit, which only goes to the publisher and developers, and it's called high profit margins. Most f2p games don't even provide real value for the money,. It seems to rarely be anything that actually increases the duration of a player's enjoyment. MWO is slightly different when it comes to hero mechs, but an extra $260 for a specific color of mech does seem pretty outrageous when summarized. I'd probably have never paid $240 for a retail box game on it's own, let alone $500, unless I was confident I could play it enough to justify that much of an investment.

I think the creators of SouthPark would be happy with the amount of discussion they're getting out of one episode. (I heard Tom Cruise was still in a closet somewhere though.)


PS Acronym tags are sweet, even if the selector is bugged.

[Ser Brynden]

The latest episode of South Park, Freemium Isn't Free, is primarily a satire of mobile games like Simpsons Tapped Out, but I can see many parallels between this and MechWarrior Online's premium time. I miss paying $30 - $60 for a fully developed game and enjoying it forever. I don't want to constantly dish out money for game perks. This is why I have not bought premium time, mech packages, or anything requiring Mech Credits since last year.

MechWarrior Online: Free to Play. Pay to Win. Or should I say, Freemium to Win?

[Majorfatboy]

MadLibrarian, on 08 November 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

@majorfatboy, Software is special, especially without a retail box, so it is more like rental than purchasing. Would you really expect a refund for a year's home rental after you found serious termite damage in December , and even from a new owner? Take it up with IGP, you should probably be blaming most of this on them anyway.

That example makes no sense with regard to what My complaints are. Comparing renting physical property that has been damaged by outside forces to a developer actively removing features and going back on advertised selling points for a product? Really? Landlords don't show up at Your apartment and say, "Guess what! Next week We're dumping termites in this place! Can You dig it?!?"
We're not talking about natural degradation over time due to weather, fire, or insect infestation, all of which are usually considered "act of god" issues; that is, no one has any control over them, not ever the property owner.
Also, I guess You've never rented before, because as the rented property is not My property, maintenance always falls on the landlord or owner of the property.
Renting physical property has as much to do with this as the color of My Amiga monitor has to do with the price of eggs.

What You've just done, is invoke the "Chewbacca Deference".



It is the ultimate strawman argument. As I've pointed out to Niko in Our emails, this is an old HR / customer service trick. Pick just one thing from a long list of many, use it as a generalization of the whole, and sidetrack the conversation to that one point, destroying the original complaint in the process.

In order to make Your example work, the owner of the property would have to repeatedly show up and remove parts of the property, slowly downgrading and / or changing the property itself into something else.
To flesh out Your example:
"Congratulations on Your new rental! A lovely two bed, one bath apartment with one free parking space off-street, heat included in rent, cable TV, Internet, carpet, and in about three months, the elevator will be completed, all for $850.00 a month. We will even have a large and ever-changing variety of paintings on display in the halls, and there will be NO consuming food in the halls, to keep things tidy. Just sign here...."

Three months later:
"It's a great day for You, tenants! We are releasing snack machines into the halls! Why are You upset? Yes, We know We said We weren't going to do consumables, but that was just Our position at the time. You understand, right? We really feel that consumables will add a great deal of fun to living here!"

Six months later:
"Sorry about the elevator, still ironing out the bugs, gonna be just a bit longer. We know You chose this building because You wanted elevator access, and We're doing everything We can."
Nine months later:
"Hello! We're just here to pull Your carpeting up. We know You paid for carpeting, but We feel most of our tenants are happier with bare wood floors, less dust You see, doesn't clog up the furnace filter as quickly. This is just what We're doing with every apartment in the building."
Twelve months later:
Yes, We know You want that elevator working, It'll be ready in just three more months. We don't have very many tennents, so We can't really afford to hire more help with the place. If You like, We've got this deluxe suite that You can rent for $1200.00 a month. That way, Your extra money will help use get the rest of the apartment ready."
Fifteen months later:
"Starting next week, We are discontinuing the internet service. We know Internet was an advertised feature of the apartment, and free internet access was Our position at the time, but too many of Our tenants were abusing it, downloading movies and knocking down the bitrate for others."
Eighteen months later:
"We understand all of the tenants have been having trouble with the heating system, with temperatures dropping into the single digits. Our maintenance personnel are working on it, but it's difficult to pin down. You understand right?"
Twenty one months later:
"We've decided to downgrade the cable TV service. Yes, We do think that You were getting to many channels. The big channel package was Our position at the time, as it was felt that this would cut down on the internet usage, but now that the internet has been discontinued, this is no longer a concern. You can of course pay for the premium channel package just for Yourself, allowing Yourself access to more channels."
Twenty four months later:
I don't think a lot of You understand how big the elevator is going to be. There is a lot going on behind the scenes here. Remember, We're just a small group of independent landlords, without better funding, there's just no way We're going to make this happen any quicker."
Twenty seven months later:
"Good news everybody! We've moved Your parking onto a gravel patch! Isn't that great? Now You don't have to worry about parking in between those pesky lines anymore! Why are You complaining? Free parking was part of the rental agreement, and We ARE providing You with free parking."
Thirty months later:
"Phase one of elevator is here! If You buy now, You'll get early access to Our buttons collection! With this, You'll be among the first tenants to be able to push buttons that will eventually lead You to opening up the elevator and choosing Your floor! And for $500.00, You can get one of Our special, limited edition GOLD buttons! Be the envy of the other tenants! When the elevator actually goes live, YOU will be ready!"
Thirty three months later:
"No, We do not have any new paintings for the walls, as that is a low priority at this time. We think We can get to it sometime after phase two of the elevator goes live. And yes, We have pulled the larger, more complex paintings from the halls. We were receiving a lot of feedback from some of our tenants that they were too big to look at, so We are keeping the small paintings in heavier rotation."
Thirty six Months later:
"Alright! We've just fixed up the molding on Your doorways. We know that they are two inches too small for the doors, We should have that fixed soon. What's this? What do You mean You don't like the color and pattern change? What do You mean You never asked for different paint? We don't understand."
Thirty nine months later:
"As of next month, all tenants will be required to co-habitate in shared apartments. It's just to much of a strain on our heating system to heat the upper floors. Why are You complaining? The rental agreement You signed was for an apartment, and We are providing You with an apartment. If You are not happy, then We suggest that You cease using Our facilities at once."
Forty two months later:
Hey, if You don't like living here, You're on an island. Buy Our latest premium Buttons! New numbers! New lights! Still nowhere to go!"

"Sorry, We can't give You lights in the bathroom, it's a limitation of the electrical box...."
"That funny smell coming from the basement is a low priority at the moment. I'll talk to Paul the janitor though..."
"What do You mean You didn't get the notice about the water piping change? We posted it on the bulletin board at Our friend's house, over on NGNG ave..."
"We totally fixed the key reg issues with the locks. You shouldn't have any more problems getting the door to take Your key, for reals this time..."
"You really don't have legitimate grounds to complain, You did sign the rental agreement. You know, that fourty-foot long piece of paper that We didn't allow You to dictate any of Your own terms on?..."


Sounds pretty stupid, right? Actually, it's completely pants-on-head mentally stunted. It makes no sense what so ever. It does not make sense. This is a bad example.

And that's exactly What You just stated.


Don't take this as a personal attack on You, just that Your example doesn't gel.

[Punkass]

MadLibrarian, on 08 November 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

@punkass, you might consider rereading the posts between major and niko. I find it hard to believe you could read Major's first post and come to the conclusion that it was Niko who started the digression from topic and aggression. Doesn't take 20/20 vision to see that the insults flow in one direction.

I appears that some people might simply be looking for new opportunities to express their own discontent by piling on whenever it seems even a little bit topical.

That said, the triple digit prices people paid might have a little something to do with the vehemence of their vitriol.

Remember what Jesus the Christ and Gautama the Buddha said: " don't be a jerk ".

Sorry dude, not buying it. Yeah, FatBoy came off like a douche, but Niko, being someone with a position of authority should be held to a higher standard than that. Guys that post things like FatBoy did are a dime a dozen. Whatever you feel Niko's role is in responding to that, it certainly isn't taking specific account information and posting it in public. And yeah, he removed it, but I question his decision making process that make him think it was ok to do that in the first place.

[MadLibrarian]

Firstly, You've redirected this thread of your own volition and I tried to direct it back on topic. Rather than discussing F2P as a model for game development, you selfishly brought it back around to your own problems on each occasion you've posted. I'm encapsulating my response in a spoiler to reduce the wall of text impact on the thread as a whole. You might consider it too.

Spoiler

Secondly, that is not a straw man, it is an example. It is not intended to represent your whole situation. I've barely been following it. I didn't touch your actual complaint, so I couldn't possibly have misrepresented it. It would be a false equivalency if anything, but it's not that either.

I gave an example illustrating how you wouldn't expect a refund for services already rendered, as opposed to owning the property. It wouldn't matter how long the termites were there, you don't get money back after living there the whole time. A court probably wouldn't award you any money without actual damage to you or your own property. Services are like rentals because ownership never changes hands and the owners can do whatever they want to improve it. It's not the best example, perhaps, but we can all do things better.

You seem to think that developers doing their job in a fashion you don't like is somehow wrong.
Let's give another example for that, shall we?
Your landlord removes a bit of ceiling to put in a skylight. For the sake of simplicity let's say the job only takes a day so you're not actually getting rained on or anything. To the landlord, he's improving the property, but you hate it because it shines sunlight into your computer room and puts a glare on the screen. Are you really being wronged? Nope, you just gotta move your desk or move yourself. Some states might have laws against such things, but there isn't where I come from. It's neither here nor there. I'm discussing the abstract concept of someone changing their own property in an effort to improve it, whether you like it or not is unimportant as they'd probably prefer you left so they can raise the rent for the next tenant anyway.

I think you try to presume bad intentions, but probably don't have evidence that their efforts are actually malicious. Have you got a legal leg to stand on here? Doubtful. Therefore, your only hope of a refund would be to talk the devs into it. A task, like catching flies, accomplished better with honey than vinegar.

I get that you're mad, and that can color your perceptions and responses, but I don't really think you're doing anyone any favors. If you cannot resolve the issue via direct communication with support staff, highjacking threads simply cannot help you. It's just annoying to all involved. I'm simply stating that you're spinning your wheels and getting mud everywhere.

I think the f2p Family Guy game fits Southpark's freemium model horribly well too. It has a few jokes here and there, but not much else. I don't think I ever saw the simpsons mobile game. Hard to find any value in those types of games. At least we have a mechlab we can toy around with infinitely here, some people find that as enjoyable as lobbing lrms.

What game is the closest to this one in it's approach to monetization?

[MadLibrarian]

Punkass, on 08 November 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Sorry dude, not buying it. Yeah, FatBoy came off like a douche, but Niko, being someone with a position of authority should be held to a higher standard than that. Guys that post things like FatBoy did are a dime a dozen. Whatever you feel Niko's role is in responding to that, it certainly isn't taking specific account information and posting it in public. And yeah, he removed it, but I question his decision making process that make him think it was ok to do that in the first place.

Me too, I completely agree, but once the mistake has been rectified what more is there to say? If it were serious, it should be reported to his supervisor.

He posted transaction totals, not credit card numbers. I am opposed to all claims that the sky is falling until Bill Nye explains why on television.

When people hear insults and aggression it can trigger the stress response in the brain, making it less likely they'll even read it's intention properly, let alone respond rationally themselves.