263 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I ran a quick Clan vs IS test to gather some data without the risk of changing player behavior ( solo queue only )

Small sample size with Clan victories at 64%

I am relatively happy with this seeing as the test increased the usual 50 ELO difference between teams to ~90 and growing the longer I ran the test - most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team.

Again with this in mind I think 64% is something I am fairly pleased with.

The new quirks still need more time to settle in and for people to use them in the best way. I may very well do some more quick Clan vs IS tests to gather more data sets.

probably doesn't help that many of us refuse to "meta-stasize" our mechs. Ain't gonna put an ac20 on my Orion no matter what Quirks it has, as none of them make up for the lack of survivability the low speed of a STD engine forces.

also curious what percentage of Mediums were the new, "DoA" (not my term) Ice Ferrets. When I was on, they and StormCrows were in large numbers.

[Damien Tokala]

i would actually like to set up a various series of tests that involve the use of every IS mech against every clan mech, stock setups in multiple matches.

would totally be up for that in testing server

[Deathlike]

Some of the existing quirks needs revising (does anyone really think an Atlas-K with 2 PPCs+Gauss is a good build on that chassis?)

I think a nerf to speed with Clan XL is in order... probably at 15-20% speed reduction of a side torso loss should be in the cards. This would go nicely WITH Clan Quirks that need to be in the pipeline for many of the underperforming Clan Mechs (like the Adder, Summoner, and many others). Those should kinda counter-balance each other (not perfectly though).

Even additional omnipods should be considered, like the IFR-B's LA or IFR-D's RA or even the SMN-M's LT omnipod should be strongly looked into.

This thread needs to be stickied anyways.

A consideration for a Clan vs IS tourney should be better than the Solo Queue IMO for getting the data you need.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 November 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Ultimax]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Clans won 64%

And how many of those teams were carried to victory on by Kit Foxes, Adders, Ice Ferrets, Novas, Summoners and Warhawks?


Not all clan mechs are created equal.

Deathlike, on 06 November 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

I think a nerf to speed with Clan XL is in order... probably at 15-20% speed reduction of a side torso loss

Sorry I disagree with this one.

I run STD engines in my Assaults & I would run them on my Clan Assaults if I could customize more.

Forcing penalties onto engines you can't remove in mechs that have humongous side torsos they can't even use their arms to defend is pretty crummy.


Mostly this would hurt a few specific mechs more than others. I got legged once in my Dire Wolf and I could barely tell the difference.

[Thiol]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I ran a quick Clan vs IS test to gather some data without the risk of changing player behavior ( solo queue only )

Small sample size with Clan victories at 64%

I am relatively happy with this seeing as the test increased the usual 50 ELO difference between teams to ~90 and growing the longer I ran the test - most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team.

Again with this in mind I think 64% is something I am fairly pleased with.

The new quirks still need more time to settle in and for people to use them in the best way. I may very well do some more quick Clan vs IS tests to gather more data sets.

Hi Russ, I'm that annoying A_Thiol on Twitter.

I see so many discussions here on the forums that are not evidence based.
Everyone is posting screenshots of their matches and their impressions of win rates vs. clans - but we have no real data to go on.
I'm happy to see PGI is doing tests like this, but until the players can look at a robust match data set, it will be very difficult to move towards evidence based discussion.

Discussions such as:

Are the quirks working?
-- You currently will need to spend time convincing the community that controversial quirks are in fact working
-- If you released the match data, we could look at win rates pre/post and break down win/rates by setups and see our own performance so that this discussion could reflect reality rather than perception.

Did the new CBills/XP System help or harm player's economy?
-- Some people are very happy, others are not happy with it, you have assured us the 'average' is similar - but until we can look at the distribution and our past history - its difficult to reconcile individual experience with what is actually occuring at the population level.

Is a certain mech actually underpowered?
- If we had detailed and long standing match data, we could evaluate its performance and provide that feedback to PGI in a manner that extends beyond 'just' some members of the competitive community.

I've asked before, and will ask again, when will PGI take the same step that other F2P games (World of Tanks/Dota, etc.) and release match data so that we can have evidence informed discussions of key issues that the community is grappling with.

I strongly believe if we had access to the data, most of these issues would disappear as we would have direct evidence one way or another.

Either way, thanks for such a fun game.

Best regards,

Thiol

Edited by Thiol, 06 November 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[Diss]

IS losing 2/3 of games doesnt look to good actually. Need to be in the 55-45 range at the worst.

Also, new clan med out. Need to do again in 10 days see where its at once people go back to regular mechs.

Edited by Diss, 06 November 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 06 November 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Sorry I disagree with this one.

I run STD engines in my Assaults & I would run them on my Clan Assaults if I could customize more.

Forcing penalties onto engines you can't remove in mechs that have humongous side torsos they can't even use their arms to defend is pretty crummy.


Mostly this would hurt a few specific mechs more than others. I got legged once in my Dire Wolf and I could barely tell the difference.

Well, there's nerfing torso twist and turn speeds... the lack of a speed reduction could be problematic (Dire Wolf going to 30 something kph is terrible sounding)... although even removing "Speed Tweak" as a speed reduction shouldn't actually kill the mech either.

[IceSerpent]

Diss, on 06 November 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

IS losing 2/3 of games doesnt look to good actually. Need to be in the 55-45 range at the worst.

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I am relatively happy with this seeing as the test increased the usual 50 ELO difference between teams to ~90 and growing the longer I ran the test - most matches I observed were around 100-120 ELO advantage to the Clan team.

55-45 range with this kind of Elo advantage wouldn't be good at all.

[Mcgral18]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Clans won 64%

I never got the chance to introduce them to the WubShee...

Don't you think a longer event would yield more accurate results?

Because Clam mechs certainly aren't all made equal. Fenris compared to the StormCrow? There is barely a competition, yet only 10 tons difference.


Though, if I might make the suggestion, is there any chance we could get some rather unique quirks? Perhaps for specific omnipods.

For example, if we aren't going to inflate any hardpoints for the Clan mechs, even the suboptimal Fenris, perhaps you could give their ERPPCs(located in stock locations) the full 15 PP FLD damage. This means the Fenris has a 6 ton gauss, but only those 9 tons of pod space.

Something like that could help, if you are going to keep it with anemic hardpoints.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 06 November 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

I never got the chance to introduce them to the WubShee...

Don't you think a longer event would yield more accurate results?

Because Clam mechs certainly aren't all made equal. Fenris compared to the StormCrow? There is barely a competition, yet only 10 tons difference.


Though, if I might make the suggestion, is there any chance we could get some rather unique quirks? Perhaps for specific omnipods.

For example, if we aren't going to inflate any hardpoints for the Clan mechs, even the suboptimal Fenris, perhaps you could give their ERPPCs(located in stock locations) the full 15 PP FLD damage. This means the Fenris has a 6 ton gauss, but only those 9 tons of pod space.

Something like that could help, if you are going to keep it with anemic hardpoints.

Take a look @ the Cicada-3C's quirks. They have made it a literal noisy ERPPC cricket. It can be done.

Edit:
Let me know if my math is wrong...

The ERPPC quirks allows to the ERPPC to generate 7.5 pts of heat (cool between LL/LPL and the ERL) and a cooldown of 2 seconds. That is insane.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 November 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[Kain Demos]

IceSerpent, on 06 November 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

55-45 range with this kind of Elo advantage wouldn't be good at all.

Whenever Russ posts the results somehow the ***** and whine team always forgets the ELO part of it. Since the last 70/30 tests I've seen dozens of posts and threads where the discussion carries on without any mention of the ELO difference that contributed to the results.

[eblackthorn]

Please do an IS vs Clan weekend event! I always miss these tests!

[Monkey Lover]

Russ if you dont Quirk the clans everyone will be forced to use the timber.

[Jman5]

I hope in the future you run some tests during North America peak usage. You will get a better sense of balance and the higher population should bring Elo closer together.

[Nik Reaper]

Dragomir Zelenka, on 06 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I'm curious to see what the breakdown of Clan mechs was. Did the wins primarily come from teams frontloaded with Dires, Timbers, and Stormcrows? Were the losses primarily from those teams skewed towards the "substandard" clan chassis?

I'm also curious to see how this sort of thing will shake out in a few more days, when people have had a chance to get the Ice Ferret fully unlocked, and when the Timby hits for Cbills.

Glad to see you running tests on this stuff at any rate.

Hehe, mine losses were from the meta gods .

[Jeb]

With the higher ELO on the clans side it makes sense the clans are still a bit on top for wins. Give it some more time for new builds to take advantage of the quirks and the gap should get smaller still. Plus as mentioned it will probably get closer with a longer test window. I have nights where I lose 10 or more games in a row but over time that balances out

Edited by Jeb, 06 November 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Clans won 64%



Yes

Do a test without Dire, Timber or StormCrow allowed on clan side and see it goes, I'm very very curious if it's just a few popular mechs making a difference.

[Tristan Winter]

Thanks for the update, Russ.

Haven't seen you post much in the General forum lately. I hope you'll find the time again soon!

[Kanatta Jing]

I think the logic goes like this...

64% doubles becomes 1 Clan Mech equals 1.28 IS Mechs thus 10 Can Mechs = 12.8 IS Mechs.

If we assume the .8 extra IS mechs will round down as IS pilots adjust to them we can move onto 10 vs 12 matches in Community Warefare.

[Kain Demos]

shad0w4life, on 06 November 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Do a test without Dire, Timber or StormCrow allowed on clan side and see it goes, I'm very very curious if it's just a few popular mechs making a difference.

That would really **** things up. Right now the Clams only have two assault 'mechs and I probably see 8 Dire Wolves to every 1 Warhawk. The clam teams would always be on the "light side" if those 'mechs were excluded.