128 replies to this topic

[Fishbulb333]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 06 November 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Pretty much every Clan mech punches above its weight class,

By pretty much every clan mech you mean 2 or 3 of the 10 currently released, right?

[Brody319]

LordKnightFandragon, on 06 November 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

But that one is soooo slow.......atleast in MW4, I found it annoying to drive....

Slightly faster than the whales. plus comes with JJs. Also the fact that the stock loadout is 4 medium lasers, twin gauss, and 2 LRM 10s would make it pretty devastating right out of the box.

[Thunder Lips Express]

Fishbulb333, on 06 November 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Hnngh...Jager with 10 extra tons would be terrifiying.. 4 IS uac/5's with plenty ammo and maybe a couple medium lasers?

almost like a cataphract

[Fishbulb333]

Ecliptor, on 06 November 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

almost like a cataphract

But..not really at all? 4 uac/5 instead of 3. More ammo, higher mounted arms etc..


edit - in case you're still not getting it, compare this CTF build to this Jager build, except the jager gets 10 more tons, giving the option to switch to a standard engine and upgrade the ACs to UACs.. Yeah, just a slight difference.

Edited by Fishbulb333, 06 November 2014 - 08:58 PM.

[Thunder Lips Express]

Fishbulb333, on 06 November 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

But..not really at all? 4 uac/5 instead of 3. More ammo, higher mounted arms etc..


edit - in case you're still not getting it, compare this CTF build to this Jager build, except the jager gets 10 more tons, giving the option to switch to a standard engine and upgrade the ACs to UACs.. Yeah, just a slight difference.

...you are pretentious, in case you're still not getting it compare almost with exactly the same.
a cataphract 4x with 4 regular ac 5's and 2 ml is not that different from 4 uac 5's and 2 medium lasers, and yes lower slung arms but there is a minor benefit to lower slung arms. Imagine being able to use them to block that xl engine you plan to use, jagers can't do that...but i'm guessing you knew that already.

[CDLord HHGD]

Davegt27, on 06 November 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Simple question

Should the TW be classed as an Assault Mech?

Simple answer!

No.

[Revis Volek]

Davegt27, on 06 November 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I think my next Mech will be an Orion or a Cat not sure which
The Orion looks cool so it might win out

The TW is so over powered it needs to be an Assault

No its isnt, its just the top of the Class. Just like the 35 tons lights are the best...should the Ember and Jenner F be considered mediums because they do so well?

Then where do we stop? Shadow hawks and Stormcrows are heavies? The class decision is not something PGI made up it is straight out of Canon and not something they should or want to mess with.

Edited by DarthRevis, 07 November 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Davegt27, on 06 November 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Simple question

Should the TW be classed as an Assault Mech?

Kind of thinking about my poor Jager at only 65 tons
What I would give for more tonnage on the Jager

The TW at 75 tons wow! Ten tons more capacity no wonder people cry about it all the time

Your thoughts

75 tons is a Top end Heavy Mech. has been for 30 years.

[Satan n stuff]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 06 November 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

This is because it can leverage Clan tech and has the weight (... 75 tons) to do it well.

Those and it's good hitboxes are the only real advantages, the mobility seems good but it comes at a massive reduction in pod space that more than balances it out, no-one would ever run it with the stock 375 engine if they had a choice.
Any engine over a 350 rating isn't worth taking barring some very special circumstances, as that's the point where the weight efficiency starts to fall off drastically for both standard and XL engines.

[IraqiWalker]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 06 November 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

*coughmarauderwarhammerlongbowarchercough*

The Orion is actually a great clan buster (AC 20+SRMs+MLs+STD300, or big XL).

As for the ones you've listed above, only the Warhammer is actually good. The Marauder might work too.

If you want IS heavies that can run on equal footing with the T-Wolf you want things like the Flashman that can mount an XL 375, and as many lasers as your heart desires. You want 75 ton heavies that can match it in speed and firepower.

The Black Knight (Kinda, it's still not as good as the flashman), Bandersnatch is a possibility, Falconer definitely, Marauder maybe, Prometheus (Unbound) is a possibility that will likely never be seen (IS mech built with Clan weapons and upgrades), Rakshasa in my opinion could put up a fight, but it's just an inferior TBR. The Wardog in my opinion with close range weapon can beat the T-Wolf.

So of the 75 tonners listed (somewhat era friendly) we have:
Flashman
Bandersnatch
Falconer
Marauder
War Dog


5x75 tonners in the entire list right now, could possibly match/beat the TBR, most of them are either not in yet (due to legal issues or just not introduced yet), or will not be available for another year or two. Any other 75 tonners that can deal with the TBR are still quite a few years away (mostly post-jihad mechs can deal with it)

I would love to include the Hammerhands, since I'm a Davion player, but I'm not sure it will do well. I'll need to run some builds and see what happens.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 November 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Glythe]

With its clan engine the TW has an effective 94 ton payload when compared to an IS mech.


Yes.

Edited by Glythe, 07 November 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Glythe, on 07 November 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

With its clan engine the TW has an effective 94 ton payload when compared to an IS mech.


Yes.

No.

I would like to see some maths support such a statement. (where the 94 tons come from, Endo, and FF don't save 19 tons)

[Satan n stuff]

IraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

No.

I would like to see some maths support such a statement. (where the 94 tons come from, Endo, and FF don't save 19 tons)

I think he's comparing the engine to a standard 375, which weighs 45.5 tons. A Timberwolf is less durable than it would be with a standard 375 so that comparison doesn't work as far as I'm concerned.

[Gyrok]

Davegt27, on 06 November 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I think my next Mech will be an Orion or a Cat not sure which
The Orion looks cool so it might win out

The TW is so over powered it needs to be an Assault

Considering dragons shoot a pair of ac5s faster than stock ac2s right now, I think your argument is null and void.

[Brody319]

IraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

No.

I would like to see some maths support such a statement. (where the 94 tons come from, Endo, and FF don't save 19 tons)

A Clan XL 375 engine weights 26.5
On a 75 ton mech Endo cuts down:
3.5 tons
FF cuts down:
1.5 tons

Regular XL 375 engine weights: 26.5 tons
The engines weight the same, and endo plus FF only gives you 5 extra tons of space.

The only advantage a Clan mech has in in the weight of its weapons, and the fact that its side torsos can be lost.

The clan weapons are on average about 1 ton less than their counter parts.

Edited by Brody319, 07 November 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Brody319, on 07 November 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

A Clan XL 375 engine weights 26.5
On a 75 ton mech Endo cuts down:
3.5 tons
FF cuts down:
1.5 tons

Regular XL 375 engine weights: 26.5 tons
The engines weight the same, and endo plus FF only gives you 5 extra tons of space.

The only advantage a Clan mech has in in the weight of its weapons, and the fact that its side torsos can be lost.

Then that's not a 94 ton advantage, since it can be mimicked to a close degree by IS 75 tonners. It would be more along the 5 ton advantage, which is still acceptable and okay. However, even that weight advantage is negated to an extent by the heat generation of clan mechs (plus how much colder IS mechs can be making the heat disparity bigger), and the burn/burst times.

The sides not causing instant death are nice to have, but at the same time, clan mechs can't torso twist worth a dime. Even when they do, their arms catch none of it, damage from DoT weapons goes straight to the CT, and STs. While IS ballistics ignore torso twisting with their 1 bullet full damage set ups.

All in all, no, the T-Wolf shouldn't be an assault, the weight advantage isn't that big.


What sets the T-Wolf apart right now is the fact that it can pack an XL 375, causing it to move at great speeds, while carrying decent firepower. That enhanced mobility, plus JJs, and clan MLs, make it a terror on the field. However, that is no cause to nerf it. We just need the IS mechs that can actually compete with it, introduced into the game, and the IS heat rates brought back to normal (IS ML should be 3 heat, IS SL, and SPL should be 1 heat each, to name a few things.)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 November 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

IraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

What sets the T-Wolf apart right now is the fact that it can pack an XL 375, causing it to move at great speeds, while carrying decent firepower.

Trust me you do not want to see what it could do with a 300 XL, that's worth about a 40% increase in payload after subtracting armor tonnage.

[terrycloth]

TWolf prime has 2 LRM 20s, 2 machine guns, 36 damage worth of ER lasers, and 8 damage worth of pulse lasers. For an IS mech that would be 20 tons for 2xLRM20 + 1 ton for 2xmachine gun + 20 tons for 4x LLas + 2 tons for 2x SPL = 43 tons.

TWolf C has 2 LRM 15s, 29 damage worth of ER lasers, and a UAC5. For an IS mech that would be 14 tons for 2xLRM15 + 12 tons for 2x LLas + 2x MLas + 9 tons for UAC5 = 35 tons.

Twolf S has 4x SRM 6, 29 damage worth of pulse lasers, 5 damage of ER lasers, and 2 machine guns. For an IS mech that's 12 tons of SRMs, 16 tons for 2x Lpulse + 1x mpulse, 1 ton for a medium laser, and 1 ton for 2 machine guns = 30 tons. It also has a bunch of jump jets.

An Orion with a big XL engine and a similar number of heat sinks has ~27 tons free with no jump jets. That's actually... closer than I would have guessed. Although if you compare it to the 43 tons it's not so close really.

Oh, and I wasn't counting ammo since it didn't change between IS and clan but an empty orion hasn't paid for its ammo yet. So more like 22 tons free. Yeah, Clans rule. n.n

Edited by terrycloth, 07 November 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Brody319]

Satan n stuff, on 07 November 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Trust me you do not want to see what it could do with a 300 XL, that's worth about a 40% increase in payload after subtracting armor tonnage.

You would have an extra 11 tons free.
So 5 PPC Twolfs would be possible and you would have 6 tons left over for heat sinks.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...68ddd733324a5f4
So something like this, but with max armor.
Though this would be much more effective
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d6963265c6b4f0e
It could only move about 65 kph but that alpha would be deadly.

Edited by Brody319, 07 November 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Brody319, on 07 November 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

You would have an extra 11 tons free.
So 5 PPC Twolfs would be possible and you would have 6 tons left over for heat sinks.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...68ddd733324a5f4
So something like this, but with max armor.
Though this would be much more effective
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d6963265c6b4f0e
It could only move about 65 kph but that alpha would be deadly.

My point exactly. The Timberwolf is a fairly suboptimal clan mech considering what's possible at that tonnage.