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Missile Standardization

Balance

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#21 Glythe

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 01:54 PM

View PostBrody319, on 07 November 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Damage isnt important, as all missiles deal 1 damage so they are all liner in comparison.


But damage is important..... once again since you missed it: 4x LRM 5 fires about 3-4 times as many missiles in the chest than 1x LRM 20 with artemis.

The LRM 20 is apparently balanced around people firing 60-80 missiles at a time so you can't really deal good damage to the mech even with massive volleys.

Meanwhile the LRM 5 is balanced around people firing 5 missiles at a time so they can still deal good damage to the mech even with very small volleys. The problem is that people aren't firing a single LRM 5...... they are using those as a LRM 100 because one LRM 5 does about as much damage to a concentrated area as the LRM 20.

#22 Brody319

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 01:58 PM

View PostPjwned, on 07 November 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

That's not how it should be with AMS so readily available, especially after a pretty decent buff to AMS with its doubled ammo per ton now.

no rewards for AMS means no one gives a **** about it. Waste of weight, better bringing maximum armor, more ammo, and just hoping you don't get narced or tagged. Even if it had 10000 rounds per ton, IT doesn't shoot down missiles or give rewards to justify bringing it unless everyone brings it. Even the fire starter that can bring 2 can save the tonnage and just bring a slightly bigger engine to out run the missiles.

View PostGlythe, on 07 November 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:


But damage is important..... once again since you missed it: 4x LRM 5 fires about 3-4 times as many missiles in the chest than 1x LRM 20 with artemis.

The LRM 20 is apparently balanced around people firing 60-80 missiles at a time so you can't really deal good damage to the mech even with massive volleys.

Meanwhile the LRM 5 is balanced around people firing 5 missiles at a time so they can still deal good damage to the mech even with very small volleys. The problem is that people aren't firing a single LRM 5...... they are using those as a LRM 100 because one LRM 5 does about as much damage to a concentrated area as the LRM 20.

Its not important because that is a clustering problem not a damage problem.

Edited by Brody319, 07 November 2014 - 01:59 PM.


#23 Pjwned

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:00 PM

View PostBrody319, on 07 November 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

no rewards for AMS means no one gives a **** about it. Waste of weight, better bringing maximum armor, more ammo, and just hoping you don't get narced or tagged. Even if it had 10000 rounds per ton, IT doesn't shoot down missiles or give rewards to justify bringing it unless everyone brings it. Even the fire starter that can bring 2 can save the tonnage and just bring a slightly bigger engine to out run the missiles.


I agree that a fast mech like the firestarter doesn't really need AMS much, but if you don't bring AMS because other people don't bring it then you're partly why people complain so much about LRMs.

#24 Mystere

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:01 PM

View PostGlythe, on 07 November 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

It makes no sense that 4x LRM 5 are better than 1x LRM 20. Russ and the team seem dumbfounded by what is going on here but it's quite simple. Somewhere along the line the LRM 20 got nerfed so it mostly doesn't seek center torso, but LRM 5-10s still do so people use those almost exclusively.


View PostThe Boz, on 07 November 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

You don't get it. Four LRM5 launched at the same time have THE SAME SPREAD as ONE LRM5.


If I am to hazard a guess, this is happening because MWO is probably simulating LRM missile trajectory at the launcher level instead of at the missile level. MWO is also simulating each firing LRM launcher independently of other LRM launchers firing at the same time.

And this I can understand because simulating the trajectory of each and every missile is a very expensive thing, especially if you take projectile scattering and and colissions into account. it's basically a cost-benefit decision between real physics and game "physics".

#25 Brody319

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:02 PM

View PostPjwned, on 07 November 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:


I agree that a fast mech like the firestarter doesn't really need AMS much, but if you don't bring AMS because other people don't bring it then you're partly why people complain so much about LRMs.


I'd rather we have just 2 ECMs rather than 5-6 AMSs. counters missiles just the same for like less of the weight. When they start paying me C-bills for ECM and AMS covered I will bring my 3 AMS ecm kit fox and stop all the missiles.

#26 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:07 PM

Ive always wondered this same thing......

They really should standardize spread on missiles.....make missiles better through this role warfare and teamwork people are always on about. There should be like Icons over mechs when they Tagged, narcd and the like......Otherwise, just dumbfired SRM and LRM Launchers should be about as inaccurate as SRM4 w/o Art and LRM15 w/o art. With it, as acc as SRM4 with art and LRM 10 with art....also, NARC and TAG should sufficiently increase lock retention and info gather time so as to make it worth both the shooter and the narc'ers time to do so, while also making the missiles spread enough to not make it too OP

I sometimes see little icons beside mech names, but they mean nothing to me..I think there is like an ecm with a crossout over it, meaning its canceled but past that....

#27 terrycloth

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:13 PM

4xLRM5 fired simulatneously has the same spread as one LRM 20. It doesn't overlap four LRM5 spreads, it seems to count the number of tubes being fired and base it on that.

#28 Pjwned

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:22 PM

View PostBrody319, on 07 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:


I'd rather we have just 2 ECMs rather than 5-6 AMSs. counters missiles just the same for like less of the weight. When they start paying me C-bills for ECM and AMS covered I will bring my 3 AMS ecm kit fox and stop all the missiles.


Fair enough, but if that ECM gets countered in any way then there goes your missile protection, meanwhile AMS still does its job in that situation.

That really does highlight why ECM needs to be changed though, when 1 small piece of equipment on 1 mech is better than a large group of mechs with AMS on all of them.

#29 Brody319

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:30 PM

View PostPjwned, on 07 November 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Fair enough, but if that ECM gets countered in any way then there goes your missile protection, meanwhile AMS still does its job in that situation.

That really does highlight why ECM needs to be changed though, when 1 small piece of equipment on 1 mech is better than a large group of mechs with AMS on all of them.


ECM needs to nerfed
AMS needs buff

And both need some c-bill rewards to encourage people to properly use them.

#30 Alek Ituin

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 02:33 PM

View PostGlythe, on 07 November 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

It's like you're trying to say a minigun is less efficient than having 6 independently mounted gun barrels on an aircraft.


Faulty logic.

6x 1500rpm revolver cannons will beat a single 3200rpm Vulcan, because they're spitting out rounds at an effective 9000rpm.


More guns = better damage output, it will ALWAYS work that way.

#31 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 03:28 PM

View PostGlythe, on 07 November 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:


You really wanna go there? Ok... so not all the missiles arrived at once. But let's remember that when the 80 LRM stalker was a thing Artemis took at least 80% of the missiles to the target's chest if you had it in sight.

No one survived the LRM volleys of that era. Ok fine you basically got a 30 missile hit immediately followed by a 12 and then another 12 (or however the math worked out... you forgot about opening the doors). Volleys would of course vary depending on which stalker you used and could be as high as 52 for the 3H model.

What happened to most people was that the first volley hit you and took most of your armor in all 3 chest sections. If they twisted a bit while they got into cover the second volley would tear off a side torso. Then they had to cool down a bit because they did just fire ~160 missiles. Not many mechs survived a third direct hit.

Let's not forget that we didn't have several of the really hot maps in this period and there was no ghost heat.


So anyways...lets get back on topic.


LRM 20 should always be better than 4x LRM 5 and likewise SRM 6 with artemis must be better than the SRM 4 without artemis.


I'm not disputing that...its just a pet peeve of mine when people mention LRM 200 Locusts, when it's really an LRM 2 with 50 salvos in a row or whatever.

Regarding the LRMs of that era...that was an issue with Artemis from back then.

Either way, LRM20s are crap.

#32 Barantor

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 03:47 PM

I just want the dedication to one missile system that is heavy to pay off the dividends for the weight that a single one should have.

You don't see AC/20s being usurped by 4 ac/5s as far as damage.

#33 ShadowWolf Kell

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 03:56 PM

View PostThe Boz, on 07 November 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

You don't get it. Four LRM5 launched at the same time have THE SAME SPREAD as ONE LRM5.


Exactly, and the same impulse as an LRM20 (unless they finally fixed that.) They should have the same spread as a 20 since it accurately reflects how TT LRM rules work.

As for the tonnage, crit slots and heat, that was all stuff that could be used to tweak your mech in TT and I see no reason for that to change because it's a trade-off either way. The spread and impulse though are issues that a realtime game bring to the fold, that haven't been properly thought out and rather neglected for awhile now.

They did address that somewhat with SSRMs iirc.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 07 November 2014 - 03:56 PM.


#34 Anjian

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 10:53 PM

I think it has something to do with a technical problem the game is having. If a cluster or swarm of missiles hit a target, there is going to be hit registration problems and some of the hits are not going to be registered. If the missiles are fired in small volleys, or chains, or even linearly like the Clan LRMs, hit registration is restored. I also observed that in SRMs. There are some mechs that have single missile ports and SRMs squeeze through out of it in a long line. Though the hits are less concentrated, they tend to preserve overall total damage. I am also starting to notice that with lasers too, group vs. chain fired, with chain firing preserving more damage. It seems to me the game is having problems processing a whole bunch of hit events occuring at the same time and on the same spot.

Edited by Anjian, 07 November 2014 - 10:54 PM.


#35 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 11:12 PM

Standardizing Rate of Fire and Spread should be good. That way mechs could get better results with mixing different launchers to mech missile tube counts.

Rate of Fire
I'd see about giving all LRMs the same cooldown (something like 4.75 or 5.00) since the system has to reload the missile tubes anyway to fire the next salvo.

And so mismatching Launchers to Mech Tube counts would apply the long cooldown, such as sticking an LRM 15 into a 6 tube, you'd have three groups (6 LRM- 6 LRM- 3 LRM) spread 4.75 or 5 seconds apart for that one Missile hardpoint.

Spread
I'd look to apply the SSRM bone targeting system for hitting different sections on a target and being less of an ammo waste.




I'd also see about reducing LRMs to 120 missiles and boosting their speed in trade-off, but improvements in other areas first would be preferred before considering this idea.




SRMs also should also be tracking targets since they're missiles. They'd simply keep firing if a lock is not made unlike Streaks that only fire with a lock.

#36 Glythe

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 12:01 AM

View PostAlek Ituin, on 07 November 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:


Faulty logic.

6x 1500rpm revolver cannons will beat a single 3200rpm Vulcan, because they're spitting out rounds at an effective 9000rpm.


More guns = better damage output, it will ALWAYS work that way.


Here's the problem. One gun for the most part is all you need on an aircraft. Mounting lots of guns is a waste of weight and space and makes your craft less aerodynamic. You're taking away space from other weapon systems.

Multiple vs single missiles on a mech is more or less the same deal. Something this game doesn't model is that each launcher needs to be supplied with ammunition. This would kill your internal space with 4 separate launchers. You need 4x all the little things that make the launcher work.

But all this is irrelevant. There is no reason for the LRM 5 to do more or as much damage as a single LRM 20 to the chest area of a mech.

#37 DYSEQTA

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 12:05 AM

View PostKensaisama, on 07 November 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

It's all fun and games until someone takes a hot load of missiles to the face.


I just ignored "of missiles" and laughed my ass off. :lol:

#38 Glythe

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 12:06 AM

View PostShadowWolf Kell, on 07 November 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:


Exactly, and the same impulse as an LRM20 (unless they finally fixed that.) They should have the same spread as a 20 since it accurately reflects how TT LRM rules work.


But that's not how it works..... an LRM 5 has a LRM 5 spread (most hit the chest) while a LRM 20 has a hit everything equally/ missing like crazy spread.

#39 El Bandito

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 12:10 AM

View PostGlythe, on 07 November 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

This game makes almost zero sense when you look at SRM and LRM launcher options. I don't know when it happened but sometime ago there was a nerf to the larger launchers of both weapons.

It makes no sense that 4x LRM 5 are better than 1x LRM 20. Russ and the team seem dumbfounded by what is going on here but it's quite simple. Somewhere along the line the LRM 20 got nerfed so it mostly doesn't seek center torso, but LRM 5-10s still do so people use those almost exclusively.

You really can't have the smaller version of a weapon dealing more damage than its heavier big brother. Small lasers don't usually do more damage than medium lasers. The smaller variant has a drawback for weighing less..... namely a huge range penalty.

Why then do small clusters of LRMs aim almost exclusively for the torso when large LRM clusters scatter everywhere? That's foolish from a balance perspective and leads to people gaming the system. This is why you see people chain firing LRM 5s because it gives a long range chest seeking weapon.

But the broken nature of this system does not stop with LRMs. We also have SRMs such as the SRM 4 that are deadlier than the SRM6 due to the difference in pinpoint damage. In fact 3x SRM 6 with artemis does less concentrated damage than 4x SRM 4 to a single component.

In both cases the heavier weapon that costs more critical slots and tonnage does less damage to the target than the "weaker" variants. That just isn't right.



LRM/SRM spread should be universal regardless of the number of tubes fired. Please change this for balance reasons.


1 x LRM20 = 1.26 heat per second.

4 x LRM5 = 2.97 heat per second due to Ghost Heat. That's over twice the heat.

Chain firing LRM5s is seldom desirable as AMS can eat that **** up easily.

If LRM5s were that godly, we would see 4xLRM5 AWS-8R, 4xLRM5 BLR-1S, and 4xLRM5 HGN-733 instead of heavier launchers.

But that's never the case.

Of course, selfishness prevails. I understand that. I understand that all too well. I too am one of those "Too 1337 to die to LRMs" club and scorned the AMS for a long time. But later on I got to know firsthand, as a long time Lurmer, just how effective AMS umbrella works when even a single lance, or just two dual AMS mechs are equipped with it.

I am obviously not going to change people's mind with just a thread--hence it is simply an announcement, ahead of all the LRM quirked IS mechs you will be seeing this week, and all the Quad LRM15 Timberwolves you are going to be fighting against, next week. This rainy season is not going to end anytime soon.

No tonnage to spare is such a crap excuse. Even Lights have tonnage to put in AMS, as evidenced by 30 ton Kit Fox cramming 3 of them. You are simply switching some offensive stats to defensive stats--and with the ammo buff, it is definitely worth the weight. Of course, that is probably unacceptable to the Min Max club.

View PostEl Bandito, on 05 November 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Finally, just to make it clear: Those who say, "AMS? But I need my DPS!", had forfeited their right to QQ about LRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 November 2014 - 12:18 AM.


#40 Brody319

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 12:17 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 08 November 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:


1 x LRM20 = 1.26 heat per second.

4 x LRM5 = 2.97 heat per second due to Ghost Heat. That's over twice the heat.

Chain firing LRM5s is seldom desirable as AMS can eat that **** up easily.


Lack of reward for mounting AMS means that most puggers will never mount it. coordinated teams will easily take out missile boats so even they don't really have an interest in bringing it if they can bring more ammo or heat sinks.

AMS doesn't help when you have 2-3 guys with LRM boats hitting the same guy.





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