138 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

The first is clearly superior to the second. It's 8 less tons, 4 less crit spaces, more DPS. They have the exact same heat.

6 LRM5s are subject to ghost heat. 2 LRM20s are not.

Ghost heat should go by the number of tubes fired at once, not the number of launchers.

[The Boz]

Alek Ituin, on 08 November 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Are you friggin serious? An LRM-10 fires 5 more missiles than an LRM-5, that's 5 more damage. An LRM-20 fires 15 more missiles than an LRM-5, that's 15 more damage.

See how that works? You load up a larger launcher, you fire more missiles, and do more damage! NOVEL IDEA, ISN'T IT?!


Larger launchers fire more missiles and do more damage by design!

They *fire* more missiles, but they don't do more damage, by weight or by heat or by size.

[Alek Ituin]

The Boz, on 09 November 2014 - 03:36 AM, said:

They *fire* more missiles, but they don't do more damage, by weight or by heat or by size.

Yep. Wow. You missed how LRM's work by so much...

More missiles means more damage, because each missile does 1 damage. Whether that damage applies where you want it, or at all, is up to you (or not). But firing more of them literally cannot hurt your damage output either way. What you said is basically like saying that a C-AC/5 doesn't do more damage than a C-AC/2. It puts out more damage by design, but it's up to you to put that damage on target.

[The Boz]

A missile missing the mech entirely is not doing any damage.

[Alek Ituin]

The Boz, on 09 November 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

A missile missing the mech entirely is not doing any damage.

That's not a me problem, that's a you problem. As in, I don't care.

Bring Artemis if missiles... missing... ( ) gets your panties in a bunch. Or maybe, read how accuracy would scale with # of tubes fired at once or whatever.

[The Boz]

An LRm20+Artemis fired at a locked-on stationary Atlas will miss with at least three missiles. A 4xLRM5 without Artemis will not miss at all.

[Alek Ituin]

The Boz, on 09 November 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

An LRm20+Artemis fired at a locked-on stationary Atlas will miss with at least three missiles. A 4xLRM5 without Artemis will not miss at all.

Oh wow, god forbid three missiles miss ( ) their target! THE HORROR! 4x LRM-5 should miss with at least 3 missiles too, if fired at once.

And it would work that way too, if the idea panned out earlier was implemented. Fixed CD across the board, standardized weight, space, and heat, with a scaling accuracy system based on # of tubes fired at once.

[The Boz]

Here you go, not reading the thread again.
4xLRM5 has the SAME SPREAD AS THE 1xLRM5!
Stop flipping around between "is" and "should be" in order to not be proven wrong.

[SaltBeef]

Missiles hit about 25% about 30% with atremis. MISSILES ARE BY FAR the most nerfed weapon system in this game. If this was real life combat with an actual Lrm missile system it would be the deadliest. TOP Attack where armor is thinnest, homing, would rock the Holy Shart out of any target it did not penetrate with the 1st missile then pierce and penetrate. There are vids of what a Javeline anti tank missile can do to a heavy Russian tank......blow the turret 150ft in the air and send the roadwheels to the 4 faces of the compass.

Edited by SaltBeef, 09 November 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[ollo]

Brody319, on 07 November 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

So the LRM 5s are better in slots, weight, clustering.
And are only worse when it comes to heat.
Damage isnt important, as all missiles deal 1 damage so they are all liner in comparison.

So yea some imbalance here.

You forget the downsides artemis, general damage potential, ams and especially hardpoints, maybe a case of selective conciousness? Think of it from a balance standpoint, as this seems to be your thing: who would use LRM5 if they sucked more like you seem to propose? What should lights/mediums do that can only equip LRM5/10 because of tonnage? How many mechs are even out there being able to mimic a LRM20 with LRM5?

You're complaining about a non-issue in my eyes.

[Tlords]

Four LRM5's core a mech almost as fast as 2 LRM20s with Artemis and Tag. That's 8 tons vice 23 tons of weapons. That is like saying 8 tons of weapons should destroy a mech faster than almost 3 times the weight of weapons.

That is comparable to saying an AC5 (8 tons) should kill a mech as fast as AC20 and an AC5 (22 tons).

Your reasoning reminds me of the Chewbacca Defense.

[Brody319]

ollo, on 09 November 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

You forget the downsides artemis, general damage potential, ams and especially hardpoints, maybe a case of selective conciousness? Think of it from a balance standpoint, as this seems to be your thing: who would use LRM5 if they sucked more like you seem to propose? What should lights/mediums do that can only equip LRM5/10 because of tonnage? How many mechs are even out there being able to mimic a LRM20 with LRM5?

You're complaining about a non-issue in my eyes.

Okay I'll give you the Artemis stats:
Slots:
LRM 5: 2
LRM 10: 3
LRM 15: 4
LRM 20: 6
With Artemis, yes LRM 5s take up more slots compared to missiles. 1 ton more for 10s, 2 for 15, and 2 for LRM 20s.

Now Tonnage:
LRM 5s: 3
LRM 10s: 6
LRM 15s: 8
LRM 20s: 11
For LRM 5s, its 1 ton cheaper to just use 1 LRM 20, and 1 ton cheaper to use 1 LRM 15.

Heat is exactly the same. So yes when it comes to Artemis, LRM 5s are slightly inferior. However this is about missile standardization, not what missile launchers are better than others. So yes Artemis is not standardized either.

[TexAce]

Brody319, on 07 November 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

LRM 5's are 2 tons.
LRM 10's are 5 tons
LRM 15's are 7 tons.
LRM 20's are 10 tons.

So 2 LRM 5s weight 1 ton less than 10s, 1 ton less than 15s, and 2 tons less than 20s for the same number of missiles.

so they have the weight advantage.


Now for slots:
5s are 1 slots
10s are 2 slots
15s are 3 slots
20s are 5 slots.

So 5s have the advantage in both weight and number of slots.


Now heat:
5s = 2
10s = 4
15s = 5
20s = 6

So here the LRM 5s actually are worse. For the same number of missiles as an LRM 20 they generate 8 heat.
So using larger launchers has a heat advantage.


So the LRM 5s are better in slots, weight, clustering.
And are only worse when it comes to heat.
Damage isnt important, as all missiles deal 1 damage so they are all liner in comparison.

So yea some imbalance here.

And now do the same with Artemis equipped launchers. Ninja'd.

And think about how AMS is performing against each launcher size.

Edited by TexAss, 09 November 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[KraftySOT]

SaltBeef, on 09 November 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

Missiles hit about 25% about 30% with atremis. MISSILES ARE BY FAR the most nerfed weapon system in this game. If this was real life combat with an actual Lrm missile system it would be the deadliest. TOP Attack where armor is thinnest, homing, would rock the Holy Shart out of any target it did not penetrate with the 1st missile then pierce and penetrate. There are vids of what a Javeline anti tank missile can do to a heavy Russian tank......blow the turret 150ft in the air and send the roadwheels to the 4 faces of the compass.

Well to be fair... LRMs would be useless. SRMs would kill a mech in a single hit.

An LRM is comparable to a Katayusha 120mm rocket, with very little guidance. Its all fuel and warhead, and the warhead, is only 12kgs.

An SRM, with a 17kg warhead, which is the same weight of explosive in a Javelin ATGM, would generally destroy most mechs. Just like they destroy 20 ton MBTs.

However, in real life, what matters is penetration. An LRM wont penetrate armor, and thus do absolutely nothing. In real life you dont actually "batter down" armor. It penetrates or it doesnt.

Hundreds of 37mm Kwk ATG rounds were fired at a single Char 1 Bis french heavy tank, without so much as unnerving the crew, who eventually surrendered several hours into being shot up and tracked.

An LRM would be completely and utterly useless in real life, and an SRM would generally kill ever mech smaller than 50 tons with a single hit to the CT.

[Brody319]

TexAss, on 09 November 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

And now do the same with Artemis equipped launchers. Ninja'd.

And think about how AMS is performing against each launcher size.

http://mwo.gamepedia..._Missile_System

assuming that is still holding true, and everyone is standing still. it takes 7 AMS to destroy a single 20 LRM volley.
Artemis doesn't change anything. AMS can destroy 3 missiles meaning even LRM 5s will get 2 missiles in if you only have 1 AMS and you are standing still.

of course assuming you launch lrm 5s on chain fire, each cluster will be closer before the AMS can fire meaning eventually the AMS is just overwelmed and can't shoot down the 3 missiles before clusters of missiles hit.

[KraftySOT]

Case in point, rocket attacks against heavy tanks in world war two were completely useless. When you get to 37mm or eight inch rockets fired from above, from aircraft, against 10-20mm thick armor...that works....

A piat, ATR, are generally useless...and a Bazooka or Panzerfaust fired 6 and 7 lb explosives, shaped to penetrate only 60mm of armor.

[KraftySOT]

The ever popular Panzershrek, with PETN, got 100mm of penetration out of a 20lb rocket. Leaving nothing for guidance or fuel, with an effective 90m-120m range.

So thats useless even if you could actually penetrate the 200mm of armor on a mech.

[QuantumButler]

Bringing real life physics into Battletech is useless, it has no baring on any of the mechanics of the game and if anything in BT works sensibly it is purely by accident.

[Brody319]

Magical space scifi missiles. Applying logic is not going to work. If this game was realistic, Lasers wouldn't just...stop midair for no reason. missiles wouldn't just explode midair, PPCs wouldn't be very effective (particles would most likely completely pass through most materials, atoms are mostly empty space) Also heat sinks would function completely differently. Heat sinks store heat, not force it out, so you would have to physically eject heat sinks to cool down rapidly.