22 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

I was just in a match with 2 other ECM and 1 BAP effectively countered all three. Is that working as intended?

[pyrocomp]

No, but there is no sensor mechanics that can include that. There is simple "0"/"1" switch somwhere. If and when there will such thing as sensor (yeah, I know that there is seismics, but that have simple implementation), then there will bw sense in all this countering and all.

[Zerberus]

Rhent, on 08 November 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

I was just in a match with 2 other ECM and 1 BAP effectively countered all three. Is that working as intended?

Ehm, I`m curious as to the details of this situation, as I can think of exactly one scenario where it could be "tested" (outside of creating a PM specifically for that purpose), and that scenario is very rare (and very short when and if it does occur, to the point of it being hard to verify that it actually happened...)

If you could enlighten us to the details that would be swell

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Think of BAP as you would ECM. Where ECM counters all targeting from every mech anywhere on the map, BAP enables targeting by every mech on the map, except with BAP you actually have to do something to gain the benefit, in this case be dangerously close to an enemy mech.

I would also suggest that if 1 BAP mech countered 3 ECM mechs, that using ECM as a crutch for so long, has probably made you a worse pilot than before you used it.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 08 November 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[Rhent]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 08 November 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Think of BAP as you would ECM. Where ECM counters all targeting from every mech anywhere on the map, BAP enables targeting by every mech on the map, except with BAP you actually have to do something to gain the benefit, in this case be dangerously close to an enemy mech.

I would also suggest that if 1 BAP mech countered 3 ECM mechs, that using ECM as a crutch for so long, has probably made you a worse pilot than before you used it.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 08 November 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Think of BAP as you would ECM. Where ECM counters all targeting from every mech anywhere on the map, BAP enables targeting by every mech on the map, except with BAP you actually have to do something to gain the benefit, in this case be dangerously close to an enemy mech.

I would also suggest that if 1 BAP mech countered 3 ECM mechs, that using ECM as a crutch for so long, has probably made you a worse pilot than before you used it.

NO, what was stated in the ruleset for a very very very long time is that
-1 BAP counters 1 ECM
-2 ECM counters 1 BAP
-1 ECM on counter shuts off 1 ECM on disrupt
-2 ECM on disrupt shuts off 1 ECM on counter

I believe its your lack of game experience causing to write your statements.

[Deathlike]

You would need videos for this.

Also, you'd have to predict whether your teammates had BAP. 360m is a lot of distance to cover.

[Rhent]

Deathlike, on 08 November 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

You would need videos for this.

Also, you'd have to predict whether your teammates had BAP. 360m is a lot of distance to cover.

Your own teams BAP does not shut off your own teams ECM.

[Zerberus]

Rhent, on 08 November 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

NO, what was stated in the ruleset for a very very very long time is that
-1 BAP counters 1 ECM
-2 ECM counters 1 BAP
-1 ECM on counter shuts off 1 ECM on disrupt
-2 ECM on disrupt shuts off 1 ECM on counter

I believe its your lack of game experience causing to write your statements.

And this ruleset is exactly why I would like to know the details of the situation.

Otherwise you`re essentially "forcing" me (and for that matter everyone else) to simply assume that what you say about it countering 3 ECM is either absolutely true despite not having any details or having experienced it themselves, or to blow it off as just another bad attempt at trolling because personal expereince so far says that this is not the case.

And if those are my choices, the second is the only rational one, ESPECIALLY on these forums where people blow so much smoke that you`d think the Grateful Dead were resurrected, reformed the band, and are on tour again

[Deathlike]

Rhent, on 08 November 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Your own teams BAP does not shut off your own teams ECM.

That's not even close to what I meant.

BAP counter range is obscene, and you'd have to actually figure out how many of them are carrying ECM. It's bad to make a blanket statement about them when you don't know whether there are enough carrying them within the vicinity. In your case, more players are probably taking BAP because they want ECM countered... and that's natural. That's my point.

[Rhent]

Zerberus, on 08 November 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

And this ruleset is exactly why I would like to know the details of the situation.

Otherwise you`re essentially "forcing" me (and for that matter everyone else) to simply assume that what you say about it countering 3 ECM is either absolutely true despite not having any details or having experienced it themselves, or to blow it off as just another bad attempt at trolling because personal expereince so far says that this is not the case.

And if those are my choices, the second is the only rational one, ESPECIALLY on these forums where people blow so much smoke that you`d think the Grateful Dead were resurrected, reformed the band, and are on tour again

Standing still with seismic, with two other ECM carrying mechs and 1 mech that is visible and on seismic and all 3 ECM's are shut off.

I've been in numerous situations where I've seen multiple ECM's shut off since patch, but this is the first time I can state what is going on without any doubt.

[Zerberus]

Thank you, that`s the kind of detail that was required to add some credibility, and that does in fact sound quite fishy....

Though one thing that instantly comes to mind: doesn`t seismic have a 240range or so? It would, in tat case, be possible for 1 or even 2 more mechs to have been withing counter range but still undetectable for sensors, as ecm countering is straight line distance unaffected by terrain..... they could have theoretically been 100m outside of seismic range and still countered your ecm....

I`ll see if I cant get a few PS runs up tonight to do some actual testing of this phenomenon...

Edited by Zerberus, 08 November 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[Rhent]

Zerberus, on 08 November 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Thank you, that`s the kind of detail that was required to add some credibility, and that does in fact sound quite fishy....

Though one thing that instantly comes to mind: doesn`t seismic have a 240range or so? It would, in tat case, be possible for 1 or even 2 more mechs to have been withing counter range but still undetectable for sensors, as ecm countering is straight line distance unaffected by terrain..... they could have theoretically been 100m outside of seismic range and still countered your ecm....

I`ll see if I cant get a few PS runs up tonight to do some actual testing of this phenomenon...

With HOW Piranha has implemented BAP, 1 BAP can counter 12 ECM very easily. Why? You would need 2 ECM mechs to be in counter range to shut off the BAP, which is what 250M now and both of them have to stay within that 250M range.

With HOW Piranha has implemented BAP having more than 100M range on ECM, they seriously screwed the pooch this patch.

[Davegt27]

how do you know someone has BAP?

I carry BAP on my Streak Wolf but I never say anything

[Cyborne Elemental]

With B.A.P. running at 350 meters, there is no way you can scout and sneak like you used to in any ECM unit.

I know the LRM spammers are just loving it, but it was a poor choice and feels like another Kneejerk change to hush the whiners than it does at a real attempt to balance ECM in a better way.

BAP counter at 150 meters, wasn't particularly useful but it worked, ECM stacking was the problem here.
BAP counter at 200 meters, streaks start to be almost useful.
BAP counter at 250-275 meters, where it should be, equally balanced ranges, allows both IS and C-Streaks to be effective.
BAP counter at 300 meters, starting to break the balance in favor of BAP that any mech can carry, and every LRM boat does.
BAP counter at 350 meters, you can't engage anything or sneak around your enemy on the majority of the maps without giving yourself away. Its just a little too much.

[Zerberus]

Rhent, on 08 November 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

With HOW Piranha has implemented BAP, 1 BAP can counter 12 ECM very easily. Why? You would need 2 ECM mechs to be in counter range to shut off the BAP, which is what 250M now and both of them have to stay within that 250M range.

With HOW Piranha has implemented BAP having more than 100M range on ECM, they seriously screwed the pooch this patch.

Actually, it SHOULD still only disrupt a single ECM, which I why I want to test it before saying anything definitive.

The amount of ECM nearby is actually irrelevant, or at least should be. The mechanic is /was "Counters one ECM within range, hard, but cannot counter 2". Which is why people inadvertently spread the half-truth that 2 ECMS counter a BAP, bap has no "counter" per se, but it can only counter one, meaning 2 lets you keep the ECM screen. But the base functionality of the BAP itself is entrrely unaffected by this (sensor range, info gathering, et.al).

Edited by Zerberus, 08 November 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Rhent, on 08 November 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

With HOW Piranha has implemented BAP having more than 100M range on ECM, they seriously screwed the pooch this patch.

I see the problem now, I am not an ECM sympathizer.
I suggest that if you have happen to have 3 ECM on your team, you learn to spread out a little, so that 1 BAP only negates a single ECM, then triangulate the source of the BAP when ONE of your THREE ECM mechs shutsdown. And finally, nut-up and go fight that mech.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 08 November 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Davegt27, on 08 November 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

how do you know someone has BAP?

If you're in ECM Mech, you see that icon changed to ECM blocked status. So if there are only non ECM Mech around (and not every Mech, as you know, can equip ECM), sure there is BAP near. Actually, BAP can give away Mechs in a sense, that you know someone is close, a kind of highlanders waning 'another immortal is near'. Sometimes usfull.

[Davegt27]

Maybe one Mech is carrying 3 BAPs
lol

Edited by Davegt27, 08 November 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Drop_FF]

Mister D, on 08 November 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

...it was a poor choice and feels like another Kneejerk change to hush the whiners...

Which whiners to hush? Those dependent on ECM or those who loath it. ECM was never supposed to be a game changer anyway.

"Contemporary guided missiles such as standard or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal." -Sarna

But I'm not taking sides on that one, it ALSO says, " A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming."

Really BAP isn't supposed to counter ECM at all.

Edited by Narcissistic, 08 November 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Zerberus]

Davegt27, on 08 November 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Maybe one Mech is carrying 3 BAPs
lol

If that were actually possible, I would be the first to run a spider with nothing but BAPs and a Med laser

Narcissistic, on 08 November 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Which whiners to hush? Those dependent on ECM or those who loath it. ECM was never supposed to be a game changer anyway.

Contemporary guided missiles such as standard or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal." -Sarna

But I'm not taking sides on that one, it ALSO says, " A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming."

Really BAP isn't supposed to counter ECM at all.

While this is in and of itself true as applied to tabletop, Guardian ECM should also not be giving it`s standard advantages, PLUS those of Angel ECM, PLUS those of a Null Signature System, TO ANY MECH WITHIN 180m.

AS massively overpowered as GuardianECM was (and uncountered still would be), it became an absolute must have on any mech capable of mounting it. In fact, for the longest time any mech that could not mount ECM was generally considered inferior, especially since ECM essentially shut down entire mech builds by it`s mere presence (LRM and streak boats, primarily). The first step to counter this was to give ECM a hardpoint in teh LT, so that people could at least know where to shoot to knock out that specific piece of kit, and eventually the BAP counter was introduced. That was the first thing that actually brought some balance back to the ecm equation, knowing that, in theory, every mech on the battlefield might be able to shut your ecm down.

Even with teh BAP counter system (which in istself is still just a Band-Aid), it still offers numerous advantages that it should not have ever had in the first place, like shutting down targeting completely, even with LOS. Missile targeting actually shouldn`t be affected by guardian at all, but rtemis shouldn`t work and Narcs should be useless against it.

However, all of this assumes strict adherence to TT, which is both unfun and impractical. And Since MWO is , officially, not canon anyway, there is no lore requirement to adhere to systems that may or may not work in an FPS .

While the range may seem a bit extreme, it was in fact long overdue for the pendulum to swing back in this direction, even if it is only for a week or 2 until PGI sees that 300+M counter range is just a tad over the top.

Edited by Zerberus, 08 November 2014 - 10:51 AM.