53 replies to this topic

[Xoco]

Just out of curiosity, why are there no melee weapons in MW universe? (Battletech universe?)

I'm very new to this franchise. And the thing is, it feels that melee range strafing runs seems a common place (at least in the game). One would think that instead of slowly warming up the opponent with laser at such range, would it not be smarter to outright smack them down with a giant piece of metal (at least it would be cheaper than producing laser cannon--and a 7 tons blunt instrument will most likely crush the enemy). I won't bother with swords--these mechs seem to have very thick armor, and you won't be able to slice them up easily. But blunt force trauma still seems to be a very tempting option.
If all else fail, trampling those light mechs with a super heavy one seems like it would work just fine too.


I don't think it would work very well in the game, so let's leave that out. I'm just wondering purely about the lore.


Oh, and one more thing--are there such things as mechs on tank tracks/wheels?

[Brody319]

Some mechs had melee type weapons, but in this game the devs don't wanna handle the hit reg.

Yes there was one or two I think that had tank tracks.

http://www.sarna.net...y:Melee_Weapons

Edited by Brody319, 08 November 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[FupDup]

There are likely a number of reasons why.

One of these is animation -- Our big and bulky feeling giant robots would probably look completely stupid if they tried to punch each other or hit people with their sword. Our mechs are not aesthetically designed to be very poseable or flexible in the majority of cases, they are closer to walking tanks than anything. They tend to have fairly rigid movements.

[wanderer]

What's loony about this is a melee swing is simply a very short-range "shot", not some kind of loony collision issue.
That's it. It has no more issues than firing any other weapon, other than being at nose-bumping ranges.

I'd delight in sawing the leg off a Locust trying to run at me at 160kph, though I understand that given ranges, it's much more likely we'll see the little bug kicking heavies in the shin instead.

Simply hardwire melee weapons as a specific option for models to avoid any other issues and you're done, we have the Hatchetman running around konking people as it should be. Everyone else simply gets the appropriate "weapons" of fists and feet (with 'Mechs with missing actuators having weaker "fist guns") with DFA being an actual "firing action" while in midair. Hit, and it's a localized PBAOE that damages the leg that hits and wherever the "foot shot" contacts. Miss, and the "shot" hits ground and ends up only self-splashing the DFA'er. Charging actually could be handled much the same way- create points on the 'Mech that will inflict/receive damage if they make contact with something that would trigger a "hit" with a weapon, whether 'Mech or terrain that fades after approximately 3 seconds or so.

[kf envy]

well for the clans physical attacks violate zellbrigen. an you know how the clans have an honor system ware IS does not.

[wanderer]

kf envy, on 08 November 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

well for the clans physical attacks violate zellbrigen. an you know how the clans have an honor system ware IS does not.

Melee attacks do not violate zellbrigen, though it's considered unstylish.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Melee (or more properly hand-to-hand) is a huge part of the lore and the TT game. Aside from things like Atlases owning stuff by punching and fast assaults like Banshees and Chargers being top-tier hand-to-hand bruisers, several mechs are built around specialized weapons, beginning with the Hatchetman, Axman, and Berserker.

I assume PGI hasn't added it yet due to netcode and other programming issues.

[wanderer]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 November 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

Melee (or more properly hand-to-hand) is a huge part of the lore and the TT game. Aside from things like Atlases owning stuff by punching and fast assaults like Banshees and Chargers being top-tier hand-to-hand bruisers, several mechs are built around specialized weapons, beginning with the Hatchetman, Axman, and Berserker.

I assume PGI hasn't added it yet due to netcode and other programming issues.

See above. If you can shoot someone with a gun, melee is literally the same code with a near 0-range "shot". That's all it is.

Not really an excuse.

[KrazedOmega]

I would assume not having melee has something to do with animations and hit reg. It's one of the reasons collisions were taken out. Also removed was the ability of your mechs knee and ankle to conform to the terrain, because of HSR issues I believe. It would probably be the same for melee.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Actually, melee attacks are very common in the board game.

1. Punching (can be done twice, having hands helps)
2. Kicking (can knock down your foe)
3. Charging, aka ramming speed. Both can be knocked down
4. Death from Above. You use jump jets and land on the enemy. Very destructive, very easy to epic fail as well.
5. Rip up a tree and club them.
6. Use a blown off limb and club them.
7. Some mechs have melee weapons such as axes, swords, and even drills.

MWO doesn't simulate any of this, with the slight exception to Charging. It doesn't actually do that much damage in MWO.

The main reason is animations and lag, and simply because it isn't a priority to add this.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 08 November 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[AlexEss]

wanderer, on 08 November 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

See above. If you can shoot someone with a gun, melee is literally the same code with a near 0-range "shot". That's all it is.

Not really an excuse.

Well.. You are partially right... From a pure raw code side of things you are ofc right. But making it look good and have the right weight to it... That is a very different beast. Especially as all of the mechs we have lack proper shoulder articulation. The arms does in fact not move at all above the elbow. So i order to make it look good a re-rig of the mechs (and most likley some serious art work on some mechs.) would have to be done. Then we have the tiny fact that a charging Atlas can put enough momentum behind it´s punch to pretty much crumple a light mech with one punch. Also not to mention you need to find a good way to make it look good when a Atlas punch a Jenner (the Jenner si simply so low that your average atlas have a hard time aiming low enough at melee range to hit it. )

So it is a tad bit more complex then you make sound like, Not undo-able.. But a lot of work.

[Kilo 40]

wanderer, on 08 November 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

See above. If you can shoot someone with a gun, melee is literally the same code with a near 0-range "shot". That's all it is.

Not really an excuse.

programmed a lot of robot melee combat games have you?

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

For any thought of Melee to be considered, they first need to code and model knockdown, without that, most of the effects of these types of contact don't matter.
- As some have stated the modeling of the Mech's to be able to 'extend' or reach out with arms is also required.
- On the bright side, there is background work being done to allow for the entire gamut of the knockdown sequence and all the animations required for it. (just not priority status)
~ There was also some discussions about the Mech squat mechanic (kneeling down) being brought into the equation. An attempt to 'brace' for impact during a dedicated 'charge'. But also allowing for a lower profile stance as a by-product of the movement.

Effective code and animations for Mech's being knocked down, various effects could cause this, not just Mech on Mech contact.
- Very high impulse weapons fire on lighter Mech's could have this effect. (AC20 full center on a Locus might be one.)
- Impact at speed with stationary objects could also cause a Mech to fall down, no more 'fazing' through objects, better learn to drive if you have a very fast Mech.
All these items we are not seeing in-game as they don't have the required results or conditions coded for any effect. Till then asking for one item that requires a whole new code background isn't going to happen.
(as a note here, PGI has stated that Melee was not even on the table for discussion.)

9erRed

[Hans Von Lohman]

Kilo 40, on 08 November 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

programmed a lot of robot melee combat games have you?

Actually, he is more right than you give him credit for. Oh, and yes, I have worked on some video games.

A "punch" can just be a silent gunshot with a range of a few meters, and combined with animation of the mech punching. In fact that is how the melee attacks in the Mechwarrior IV mod from the MekTek guys worked. Or for that matter the handheld hatchet weapon from the zombie mod for ARMA-2, Day-Z (in it's early days the hatchet had to be reloaded with 49,999 rounds of ammo before you could actually start using it, and made could make bullet ricochet noises).

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 08 November 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[Brody319]

Hans Von Lohman, on 08 November 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

Actually, he is more right than you give him credit for. Oh, and yes, I have worked on some video games.

A "punch" can just be a silent gunshot with a range of a few meters, and combined with animation of the mech punching. In fact that is how the melee attacks in the Mechwarrior IV mod from the MekTek guys worked. Or for that matter the handheld hatchet weapon from the zombie mod for ARMA-2, Day-Z (in it's early days the hatchet had to be reloaded with 49,999 rounds of ammo before you could actually start using it, and made could make bullet ricochet noises).

Hit reg, balance issues, animation problems, pay off vs effort.

Hit reg is already a problem with almost every weapon, just imagine programming accurate collisions with mechs of all different sizes.
Balancing issues, lights swarming around an atlas? why not just one punch them, if the punch becomes too powerful or strong compared to other weapons, you will see quick moving puncher mechs. ultimate weapon effect is the way to describe this.
Animations are kinda hard to create without making it look silly. I mean sure you can just ******* have it go the rock'm sock'm robots and have the arms just hilariously badly upper cut. but then people would *****.
You have to look overall, is all the effort of proper balance, animations, and hit reg fixes worth what you get? an attack method that will almost never be used in both pug and competitive?

[Nathan Foxbane]

All of this can be done and some methods have even been stated here. But to play devil's advocate, it would be a work load near the order of CW to get it all done right.

[That Guy]

collisions and DFAs first

[wanderer]

Kilo 40, on 08 November 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

programmed a lot of robot melee combat games have you?

No, played a lot of TF2.



Bonk!

Edited by wanderer, 09 November 2014 - 12:44 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Because melee would be too fun.

[wanderer]

Brody319, on 08 November 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Hit reg, balance issues, animation problems, pay off vs effort.

Hit reg is already a problem with almost every weapon, just imagine programming accurate collisions with mechs of all different sizes.

Exactly the same issues as every single gun in the game. Again, a melee attack is simply a very short range "shot".

Quote

Balancing issues, lights swarming around an atlas? why not just one punch them, if the punch becomes too powerful or strong compared to other weapons, you will see quick moving puncher mechs. ultimate weapon effect is the way to describe this.

Punching in Battletech renders your guns unable to fire for the turn (basically as a safety measure to prevent damaging them). And in fact, getting your leg booted to the next map was one of the reasons you didn't casually get in close with assaults in TT in the first place. Missed kicks, speaking of which also left a 'Mech unstable- in TT a whiffed kick could actually cause a bad pilot to knock his own 'Mech over. Heck, some 'Mechs in TT are designed for melee- earlier ones simply using their massive fists and feet like the Banshee, later generations using melee weapons, heat-activated triple-strength myomer, and even more exotic things like armor spikes.

Quote

Animations are kinda hard to create without making it look silly. I mean sure you can just ******* have it go the rock'm sock'm robots and have the arms just hilariously badly upper cut. but then people would *****.
You have to look overall, is all the effort of proper balance, animations, and hit reg fixes worth what you get? an attack method that will almost never be used in both pug and competitive?

I can guarantee you that if melee goes in as a weapon, people will use it. It's a zero-heat weapon in most cases, uses no ammo, and even if your guns are shot off, all but the most crippled 'Mech has two legs to kick someone with, or in the case of jump-capable designs use a DFA maneuver. Infighters like the Centurion-AH or Yen-lo-Wang frequently have their gun arm shot away, but having the other arm useful for more than a shield would be a blessing.

As it is, missing big parts of the game only make it harder to balance the whole thing properly. Building proper melee in certainly qualifies under "put big missing piece in to allow proper balancing early rather than later".