24 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

AC 2 - Dam: 2. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 0.72 Rnge: 900 Slots: 3 Tons: 5
UAC 2 - Dam: 2. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 0.72 Rnge: 810 Slots: 2 Tons: 5

AC 5 - Dam: 5. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 1.80 Rnge: 720 Slots: 4 Tons: 7
UAC 5 - Dam: 5. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 1.66 Rnge: 630 Slots: 3 Tons: 7

AC 10 - Dam: 10. Heat: 2. Cooldwn: 2.90 Rnge: 540 Slots: 5 Tons: 10
UAC 10 - Dam: 10. Heat: 4. Cooldwn: 2.50 Rnge: 540 Slots: 4 Tons: 10

AC 20 - Dam: 20. Heat: 6. Cooldwn: 4.70 Rnge: 360 Slots: 9 Tons: 12
UAC 20 - Dam: 20. Heat: 7. Cooldwn: 4.00 Rnge: 360 Slots: 8 Tons: 12


Speeds are exactly the same, and so is the ammo per ton

So yea, apparently between regular AC and UACs for clans, you are paying some strange mixes.
Tons and damages are the same.
Heat for both 2s and 5s are exactly the same.
10s actually generate twice as much heat in ultra
The cool down is really only noticeable in 20s, while with 2s its non-existent.
You are paying for range in 2s and 5s for almost no difference besides less slots.

If you mix in the jamming mechanic and the fact that they are all burst fire...what is the point exactly? I mean you save slots, but thats about it. in almost every other category you are doing the same or worse when you use UACs for regular ones. I mean I know that we should be able to switch between LB-Xs and regular rounds, but with this system what is the point?

[FupDup]

On-paper range doesn't always translate into "effective" range due to projectile speeds. In the case of Clan ballistics, your bursts also make them harder to use at extreme ranges. The range "bonus" of regular Clan ACs isn't really tangible.

The big difference is that you have the ability to double-tap (with risk of jamming) if you use UACs, or you can use single-tap mode for equal-better RoF and no jamming. In terms of their physical size, those critslots are very precious on mechs like the Dire Whale.


But of course, in the end you should be using laser vomit instead of burst ACs on every mech except the Whale anyways. Lasers give orders of magnitude more bang for your buck, and are easier to use.

Edited by FupDup, 09 November 2014 - 10:05 PM.

[Navid A1]

Brody319, on 09 November 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

....
If you mix in the jamming mechanic and the fact that they are all burst fire...what is the point exactly? I mean you save slots, but thats about it. in almost every other category you are doing the same or worse when you use UACs for regular ones. I mean I know that we should be able to switch between LB-Xs and regular rounds, but with this system what is the point?

I think the point is the other way around.

I mean... its the regular ACs that are pointless. UAC is the way to go for clan ACs (LBX is another matter).
Practically, clan ACs are worse than UACs in every possible way.

The clans were supposed to be able to switch ammo between LBX and regular slugs (or regular burst AC). That is the cause behind the price they pay with extra slot size and longer cool down.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Y'all want balance, right? Make IS ACs burst fire instead of a single slug.

Oh, that's right, y'all don't really want balance that bad, right?

[Brody319]

Lil Cthulhu, on 09 November 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Y'all want balance, right? Make IS ACs burst fire instead of a single slug.

Oh, that's right, y'all don't really want balance that bad, right?

I'm not bothered that much by the burst fire. UAC 5s are vastly different than 5s for the IS. IS UACs are hotter, but fire faster, do more damage per second, but come with the cost of chewing through ammo and jamming.. But with Clanners...they UACs are either interior, or barely worth carrying because of the jam effect, even with the double tap, you are probably better off just bringing the standards so you don't jam and just dealing with the loss of like 1-2 slots.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Brody319, on 09 November 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

I'm not bothered that much by the burst fire. UAC 5s are vastly different than 5s for the IS. IS UACs are hotter, but fire faster, do more damage per second, but come with the cost of chewing through ammo and jamming.. But with Clanners...they UACs are either interior, or barely worth carrying because of the jam effect, even with the double tap, you are probably better off just bringing the standards so you don't jam and just dealing with the loss of like 1-2 slots.

Clan ACs are across the board inferior to IS AC's. Period. Full stop. "Oh but they take up one less slot" So give them the extra slot. One slot is not a fair trade for a vastly inferior firing mechanic.


Look at it this way, if IS ACs were burst fire, I'm sure TTK would go up quite a bit.

[Brody319]

Lil Cthulhu, on 09 November 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Clan ACs are across the board inferior to IS AC's. Period. Full stop. "Oh but they take up one less slot" So give them the extra slot. One slot is not a fair trade for a vastly inferior firing mechanic.


Look at it this way, if IS ACs were burst fire, I'm sure TTK would go up quite a bit.

We aren't looking at Clans vs IS when it comes to ACs. We are looking at Clan ACs vs Clan UACs. I don't care if they are burst fire, but an "ULTRA!" auto cannon, should fire faster, generate more heat, and weight more technically. A belt fed mechanism vs a simple shell reloader. Thats the trade off, you can deal more damage faster, but suffer in the other areas!

[El Bandito]

Lil Cthulhu, on 09 November 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Clan ACs are across the board inferior to IS AC's. Period. Full stop. "Oh but they take up one less slot" So give them the extra slot. One slot is not a fair trade for a vastly inferior firing mechanic.

I disagree. IS AC/UAC can never shake-n-bake-n-blind like Clan UACs can, a fact I immensely enjoy.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 November 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[Navid A1]

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I disagree. IS AC/UAC can never shake-n-bake-n-blind like Clan UACs can, a fact I immensely enjoy.

SSSTTTOOPPP...sharing the secrets..!

Brody319, on 09 November 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

I'm not bothered that much by the burst fire. UAC 5s are vastly different than 5s for the IS. IS UACs are hotter, but fire faster, do more damage per second, but come with the cost of chewing through ammo and jamming.. But with Clanners...they UACs are either interior, or barely worth carrying because of the jam effect, even with the double tap, you are probably better off just bringing the standards so you don't jam and just dealing with the loss of like 1-2 slots.

You know you do not jam if you do not double tap?
The UAC is far far superior compared to regular AC. It fires a little bit faster, It does not jam if you dont double tap. It needs less slots... and you have a double tap at your disposal to use when things get bad or in a small firing window...!

You know why clan ACs occupy 1 more slot?... because they were supposed to be the slug version of LBX-ACs. PGI could not figure out how to do switchable ammo so they included normal ACs for clans too.
Yes, if I had a clan LBX-AC with 2 ammo types, then sure i would have paid the extra slot price... but now, regular AC is a big big no go when you have the far superior UAC.

[Lily from animove]

ac 10 vs uac 10 seems to be the only one balanced, due to heat.

the others: why should one take an AC over an UAC? I don't see the point.

they could balance AC's by reducing the amount of bullets per shot:

Ac 2: 1 bullet
Ac 5: 2 bullets
.
.
.

that would make the AC's a bit more pinpoint while the UAC's keep streaming weapons.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Navid A1, on 10 November 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

SSSTTTOOPPP...sharing the secrets..!

I didnt realize that was a secret....thought it was kinda obvious...

Then again, I do tend to give players a bit to much credit....

[Joseph Mallan]

Lil Cthulhu, on 09 November 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Y'all want balance, right? Make IS ACs burst fire instead of a single slug.

Oh, that's right, y'all don't really want balance that bad, right?

Dude. Not even. Make Clan ACs front loaded! And make the UAC have that 50% miss rate with every other shell.

[Soul Tribunal]

Brody319, on 09 November 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

AC 2 - Dam: 2. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 0.72 Rnge: 900 Slots: 3 Tons: 5
UAC 2 - Dam: 2. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 0.72 Rnge: 810 Slots: 2 Tons: 5

AC 5 - Dam: 5. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 1.80 Rnge: 720 Slots: 4 Tons: 7
UAC 5 - Dam: 5. Heat: 1. Cooldwn: 1.66 Rnge: 630 Slots: 3 Tons: 7

AC 10 - Dam: 10. Heat: 2. Cooldwn: 2.90 Rnge: 540 Slots: 5 Tons: 10
UAC 10 - Dam: 10. Heat: 4. Cooldwn: 2.50 Rnge: 540 Slots: 4 Tons: 10

AC 20 - Dam: 20. Heat: 6. Cooldwn: 4.70 Rnge: 360 Slots: 9 Tons: 12
UAC 20 - Dam: 20. Heat: 7. Cooldwn: 4.00 Rnge: 360 Slots: 8 Tons: 12


Speeds are exactly the same, and so is the ammo per ton

So yea, apparently between regular AC and UACs for clans, you are paying some strange mixes.
Tons and damages are the same.
Heat for both 2s and 5s are exactly the same.
10s actually generate twice as much heat in ultra
The cool down is really only noticeable in 20s, while with 2s its non-existent.
You are paying for range in 2s and 5s for almost no difference besides less slots.

If you mix in the jamming mechanic and the fact that they are all burst fire...what is the point exactly? I mean you save slots, but thats about it. in almost every other category you are doing the same or worse when you use UACs for regular ones. I mean I know that we should be able to switch between LB-Xs and regular rounds, but with this system what is the point?

I might be missing something but isn't it the other way around on the shot count? UAC's firing in a 3 burst and AC's firing in 2's?
I'm going off memory as I'm not ingame currently but that's how I remember it.

-ST

[DarthPeanut]

Guess I am one of the few that think all the ACs seem like they are in a good place right now.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 10 November 2014 - 06:55 AM.

[SaltBeef]

Yep you are minority Opine here. ALL Clan AC suck BOOOH ALLS! Nobody is going to mount them outside of the DW unless LBX family for late game crit seeking.

Edited by SaltBeef, 10 November 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[Adamasartus]

What we have with the clan ACs is a weapon that nobody has a reason to use. Same weight, same projectiles, no double tap. Some players have suggested making regular clan ACs one-slug weapons. I don't feel this is quite fair to IS ACs who's niche is one-slug ACs.

So why not compromise?

It would be cool to have a regular AC fire one damage projectiles over half a second or so. Imagine a tightly packed stream of ten shells from an AC/10. The idea is to have the regular AC pinpoint better than the ultras but worse than IS ACs. So you get more bang for your buck at the cost of lower DPS. It would look cool. It would be fun. It would (with tweaking) be balanced. It would add flavour and a different feel and give players a reason to use it.

What do you think?

[CrushLibs]

AC-2 & AC-5 -1 slug
AC -10 - 2 slug
AC-20 - 3 slug

Keep cycle rates , heat , and speeds equal with UAC having a double tap vs jamming

IMO the UAC should be 1,2,3,4 slugs instead of 2,3,4,5 since hitting lights is nearly impossible without wasting 4 tons of ammo.

So far the UACs have had a range nerf 3x to 2x , cool down nerfs from 1.1 to 1.5 to 1.66

IS UAC-5 should be slightly buffed from 9 tons to 8 tons and 4 slots instead of 5 to give them a fair chance.

[DasaDevil]

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I disagree. IS AC/UAC can never shake-n-bake-n-blind like Clan UACs can, a fact I immensely enjoy.

Which is fine against PUGs and people who have no clue what they are doing. Me? I'm going to wiggle that damage all over my battlemech while my buddies nuke your CT with ERLL spam, since it's such a big target that isn't moving anywhere.

It's a worthless weapon system when effective teamwork is implemented.

[Triordinant]

Lil Cthulhu, on 09 November 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Y'all want balance, right? Make IS ACs burst fire instead of a single slug.

Oh, that's right, y'all don't really want balance that bad, right?

Here's the bottom line: Clan technological superiority is supposed to be balanced by IS numerical superiority. The moment they decided that Clan vs IS matches were going to be 12 vs 12 instead of 10 vs 12 (or some other ratio), that concept got thrown out the window and PGI had no choice but to balance Clan 'mechs and IS 'mechs because the goal now is for an all-IS team to have an even chance of defeating an all-Clan team in a 12 vs 12 match.

The way they're balancing them is by nerfing Clan 'mechs and buffing IS 'mechs. One of the most significant Clan nerfs require Clan pilots to have more skill in keeping their fire on target. This is why Clan lasers have longer beam durations and Clan ACs have burst fire instead of single slugs. Recent IS buffs include Quirks for low-performing IS 'mechs. Remember: an all-IS team has to be able to defeat an all-Clan team half of the time in 12 vs 12 matches.

[Kalimaster]

The IS Ultra AC/5 is intended to be a top of the line weapon system, even if it does jam. It is underpowered in my opinion, and has been nerfed several times already. So here is a Suggestion. LEAVE THINGS ALONE AND WORK ON BUILDING THE GAME INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY TRYING TO TEAR IT DOWN!