47 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

QuantumButler, on 10 November 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

Actually, it's far from where it needs to be, give it buffs.

Nah, I disagree.

[Dauntless Blint]

In my humble opinion it shouldn't jam full stop if your not double tapping...it feel's like it does

[QuantumButler]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 November 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Nah, I disagree.

And I disagree with your disagreement.

[MeiSooHaityu]

QuantumButler, on 10 November 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

And I disagree with your disagreement.

And I disagree with you disagreeing with me .

If an Ultra jammed 5 shots out of every 100 taken, why would you run with an A/C5?

In closed beta the Ultra had no jamming affect, and EVERYONE took an Ultra over a standard A/C5. Why wouldn't you? It was a reliable double tap for very little extra tonnage. If the mech has a 5% jamming rate, it might as well not jam. We are back to the same problem. even 10% is too infrequent.

It should be a gamble to take the weapon. If I want to double tap, 1 out of 3 or 4 shots should cause a jam. It makes it a risk for double firing and trying to squeak in that extra shot to take down an opponent.

Ultras are questionably modified weapons that were never intendid to be double fired. They can jam because of that. That is why they are an Ultra. It needs a risk/reward system for double firing.

Anycase, you have made up your mind already so I really am waisting my time typing.

[Kalimaster]

[color=#959595]The IS Ultra AC/5 is intended to be a top of the line weapon system, even if it does jam. It is underpowered in my opinion, and has been nerfed several times already. So here is a Suggestion. LEAVE THINGS ALONE AND WORK ON BUILDING THE GAME INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY TRYING TO TEAR IT DOWN! [/color]

[Viges]

UAC5 only works with a Four-leaf clover in your cabin, it's a weapon of luck for the true Soldiers of fortune

It's pretty balanced now, no changes needed.

[FoxTrot05]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 November 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

And I disagree with you disagreeing with me .

If an Ultra jammed 5 shots out of every 100 taken, why would you run with an A/C5?

In closed beta the Ultra had no jamming affect, and EVERYONE took an Ultra over a standard A/C5. Why wouldn't you? It was a reliable double tap for very little extra tonnage. If the mech has a 5% jamming rate, it might as well not jam. We are back to the same problem. even 10% is too infrequent.

It should be a gamble to take the weapon. If I want to double tap, 1 out of 3 or 4 shots should cause a jam. It makes it a risk for double firing and trying to squeak in that extra shot to take down an opponent.

Ultras are questionably modified weapons that were never intendid to be double fired. They can jam because of that. That is why they are an Ultra. It needs a risk/reward system for double firing.

Anycase, you have made up your mind already so I really am waisting my time typing.

I uh, disagree with this. Ultra weapons are very heavy, takes up crits, and produce more heat than other autocannons. Combined with the limitations of ammo and risk of explosion, jamming seems unfair compard to what you gain/give up when choosing large lasers. Large pulse does more damage, same heat, and only less range. They decided to rebalance lasers based on range + tonnage and not heat + range + tonnage.

In TT LBX is suppose to be the lightest with two firing modes (cluster/single slug), Autocannons are just standard place holders until armor piercing rounds are implemented critting on full armor, and Ultra's are the heaviest, faster firing, and only have one choice of ammo. Jamming should be reserved for Rotary autocannons that can fire 2-3 times faster than ultra's.

[Moonlander]

I think the best solution is to just make every weapon in the game do exactly the same damage, have exactly the same firing mechanics and take out any sort of variety possible. I also feel all mechs should have to go the same speed and have the same amount of armor/health. Also, give everyone jumpjets. While we're at it, lets just take out any ability to customize your mech and give everyone the same loadout, regardless of tonnage.

That sounds like an awesomely fun game, right?

[QuantumButler]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 November 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

And I disagree with you disagreeing with me .

If an Ultra jammed 5 shots out of every 100 taken, why would you run with an A/C5?

In closed beta the Ultra had no jamming affect, and EVERYONE took an Ultra over a standard A/C5. Why wouldn't you? It was a reliable double tap for very little extra tonnage. If the mech has a 5% jamming rate, it might as well not jam. We are back to the same problem. even 10% is too infrequent.

It should be a gamble to take the weapon. If I want to double tap, 1 out of 3 or 4 shots should cause a jam. It makes it a risk for double firing and trying to squeak in that extra shot to take down an opponent.

Ultras are questionably modified weapons that were never intendid to be double fired. They can jam because of that. That is why they are an Ultra. It needs a risk/reward system for double firing.

Anycase, you have made up your mind already so I really am waisting my time typing.

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 November 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

And I disagree with you disagreeing with me .

If an Ultra jammed 5 shots out of every 100 taken, why would you run with an A/C5?

In closed beta the Ultra had no jamming affect, and EVERYONE took an Ultra over a standard A/C5. Why wouldn't you? It was a reliable double tap for very little extra tonnage. If the mech has a 5% jamming rate, it might as well not jam. We are back to the same problem. even 10% is too infrequent.

It should be a gamble to take the weapon. If I want to double tap, 1 out of 3 or 4 shots should cause a jam. It makes it a risk for double firing and trying to squeak in that extra shot to take down an opponent.

Ultras are questionably modified weapons that were never intendid to be double fired. They can jam because of that. That is why they are an Ultra. It needs a risk/reward system for double firing.

Anycase, you have made up your mind already so I really am waisting my time typing.

And now no one who knows any better takes them unless they can take at least 2, a single one is utterly useless, and even with 2 or more the ac5 is now always superior, guess what? We just reversed the closed beta position, with an ostensibly top of the line advanced weapon system that weighs 1 more ton than the AC5 being inferior in almost every single way.

No one is advocating for no jams at all, it literally didn't jam in closed beta, then they added stupid jamming ddr and no one took it, then the Elmo came out coincieding with auto-unjam, and it was literally only possibly op on the Ilya Muromets, then it got nerfed hard back into uselessness, then it got buffed back abit, and now it's back to being useless again.

It just isn't competitive against the regular old AC5 at all anymore, and that needs to change.

Other guns are godawful and need major buffs too, AC2s, SSRM2s, flamers, MGs, and AC10s.

Moonlander, on 10 November 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

I think the best solution is to just make every weapon in the game do exactly the same damage, have exactly the same firing mechanics and take out any sort of variety possible. I also feel all mechs should have to go the same speed and have the same amount of armor/health. Also, give everyone jumpjets. While we're at it, lets just take out any ability to customize your mech and give everyone the same loadout, regardless of tonnage.

That sounds like an awesomely fun game, right?

Yes because that's what everyone is saying.

Stop being ignorant.

[Mothykins]

AC5 in general need to be friggin fixed. Things broken as your balls after a bad date.

You looked at its stats compared to the rest of the AC family?

Let me lay it our for you from ac2-20; Damage per second, Heat per second, Damage per heat, DPS per ton. Major outliers are in bold.

AC2:

• 2.78 DPS
  
• 1.39 HPS
  
• 2.00 DPH
  
• 0.46 DPS/T

AC5:

• 3.01 DPS
  
• 0.60 HPS
  
• 5.00 DPH
  
• 0.38 DPS/T

AC10:

• 4.00 DPS
  
• 1.20 HPS
  
• 3.33 DPH
  
• 0.33 DPS/T

AC20:

• 5.00 DPS
  
• 1.50 HPS
  
• 3.33 DPH
  
• 0.36 DPS/T

Base stats for the UAC5 is the same as the AC5.

Yeah, we have an issue here. By all logic there should be a linear progression, but there isn't. DPS/T is all over the place, AC5 has the best heat management out of anything (Even small lasers!) other than the Machinegun or Gauss. Seriously. There is nothing that comes close to the bloody thing for efficiency. What the heck is going on with that gun?

Your UAC5 is the same gun, plus one ton, that can fire during cooldown with a chance to jam.

Ok, so~


UAC5, Doubletap;

• 6 DPS
  
• 1.2 HPS
  
• 5 DPH
  
• 0.76 DPS/T

... Yeah. Ok. There's a reason the Jam chance is so high, but it miiight be a smidge too high: at 20% your probability of jamming is 99.9% at 40 rounds. 89.3% at ten rounds. Not great. But at the same time, you could fix this by normalizing the AC5 with the rest of the AC class weapons. This would make it really a no brainer to lower Jam Chances and/or jam durations, because heat gen would be high enough to stop it being spammed.

The reason no-one really uses AC2 or AC10 is because the (U)AC5 is broken. Fixing it would solve the problems.


TLDR; AC5 is broken so badly it makes everything else look terrible. Bringing it in line with the rest of the AC weapons would allow for the UAC5 to have reduction to jam percent and/or Time, with the side effect of making the AC2 look useful.

[kapusta11]

Cavale, on 10 November 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

AC5 in general need to be friggin fixed. Things broken as your balls after a bad date.

You looked at its stats compared to the rest of the AC family?

Let me lay it our for you from ac2-20; Damage per second, Heat per second, Damage per heat, DPS per ton. Major outliers are in bold.

AC2:

• 2.78 DPS
  
• 1.39 HPS
  
• 2.00 DPH
  
• 0.46 DPS/T

AC5:

• 3.01 DPS
  
• 0.60 HPS
  
• 5.00 DPH
  
• 0.38 DPS/T

AC10:

• 4.00 DPS
  
• 1.20 HPS
  
• 3.33 DPH
  
• 0.33 DPS/T

AC20:

• 5.00 DPS
  
• 1.50 HPS
  
• 3.33 DPH
  
• 0.36 DPS/T

Base stats for the UAC5 is the same as the AC5.


Yeah, we have an issue here. By all logic there should be a linear progression, but there isn't. DPS/T is all over the place, AC5 has the best heat management out of anything (Even small lasers!) other than the Machinegun or Gauss. Seriously. There is nothing that comes close to the bloody thing for efficiency. What the heck is going on with that gun?

Your UAC5 is the same gun, plus one ton, that can fire during cooldown with a chance to jam.

Ok, so~


UAC5, Doubletap;

• 6 DPS
  
• 1.2 HPS
  
• 5 DPH
  
• 0.76 DPS/T

... Yeah. Ok. There's a reason the Jam chance is so high, but it miiight be a smidge too high: at 20% your probability of jamming is 99.9% at 40 rounds. 89.3% at ten rounds. Not great. But at the same time, you could fix this by normalizing the AC5 with the rest of the AC class weapons. This would make it really a no brainer to lower Jam Chances and/or jam durations, because heat gen would be high enough to stop it being spammed.


The reason no-one really uses AC2 or AC10 is because the (U)AC5 is broken. Fixing it would solve the problems.


TLDR; AC5 is broken so badly it makes everything else look terrible. Bringing it in line with the rest of the AC weapons would allow for the UAC5 to have reduction to jam percent and/or Time, with the side effect of making the AC2 look useful.

AC5 is DPS weapon and that is why it's bad. Alpha buils are superior to DPS ones because they can shoot and go back to cover/torso twist to avoid/spread damage.

[Mothykins]

kapusta11, on 10 November 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

AC5 is DPS weapon and that is why it's bad. Alpha buils are superior to DPS ones because they can shoot and go back to cover/torso twist to avoid/spread damage.

Then why does the AC2 follow the same linear trend as the rest of the AC family? Do you even understand what I'm pointing out here? Did you even read any of what I posted? If i follow your logic, that the AC5 is bad because its a DPS gun and needs more buffs, then the AC2 should be the coolest running gun in the game and generate .3 heat per second. This means I should be able to just hold down the trigger on staggerfire with the mythical Hexa AC2 Jager and never stop firing. Endless streams of Dakka as I unload on you from over a KM away. I:

This has nothing to do with Alpha builds. This has to do with good and logical weapon balance. Learn to read and reason with actual logic, rather than just throwing useless mouth-full-of-man gargle garbage out there.

[Helsbane]

Why not toss in a few UAC5 modules to shake things up performance-wise?

Open Bolt - Eliminates the requisite cool-down after the jam clears, allowing immediate firing.

Improved Feed System - Lowers the % chance that a jam will occur by X%

SPORTS - Lowers the time required to clear the jam by X%

And while these would change things up considerably depending on which one you selected, I still believe that PGI's depiction of the UAC as a rotary barreled system should change the fundamental manner in which it works. Modern rotary barreled weapons do not jam (yes, I know they CAN have catastrophic failures), but they do occasionally suffer from poor ammo quality. This means that an unspent round is simply ejected while the system continues to cycle. If you're gonna use a multi barreled system, at least make it behave like one.

[QuantumButler]

Cavale, on 10 November 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

AC5 in general need to be friggin fixed. Things broken as your balls after a bad date.

You looked at its stats compared to the rest of the AC family?

Let me lay it our for you from ac2-20; Damage per second, Heat per second, Damage per heat, DPS per ton. Major outliers are in bold.

AC2:

• 2.78 DPS
  
• 1.39 HPS
  
• 2.00 DPH
  
• 0.46 DPS/T

AC5:

• 3.01 DPS
  
• 0.60 HPS
  
• 5.00 DPH
  
• 0.38 DPS/T

AC10:

• 4.00 DPS
  
• 1.20 HPS
  
• 3.33 DPH
  
• 0.33 DPS/T

AC20:

• 5.00 DPS
  
• 1.50 HPS
  
• 3.33 DPH
  
• 0.36 DPS/T

Base stats for the UAC5 is the same as the AC5.


Yeah, we have an issue here. By all logic there should be a linear progression, but there isn't. DPS/T is all over the place, AC5 has the best heat management out of anything (Even small lasers!) other than the Machinegun or Gauss. Seriously. There is nothing that comes close to the bloody thing for efficiency. What the heck is going on with that gun?

Your UAC5 is the same gun, plus one ton, that can fire during cooldown with a chance to jam.

Ok, so~


UAC5, Doubletap;

• 6 DPS
  
• 1.2 HPS
  
• 5 DPH
  
• 0.76 DPS/T

... Yeah. Ok. There's a reason the Jam chance is so high, but it miiight be a smidge too high: at 20% your probability of jamming is 99.9% at 40 rounds. 89.3% at ten rounds. Not great. But at the same time, you could fix this by normalizing the AC5 with the rest of the AC class weapons. This would make it really a no brainer to lower Jam Chances and/or jam durations, because heat gen would be high enough to stop it being spammed.


The reason no-one really uses AC2 or AC10 is because the (U)AC5 is broken. Fixing it would solve the problems.


TLDR; AC5 is broken so badly it makes everything else look terrible. Bringing it in line with the rest of the AC weapons would allow for the UAC5 to have reduction to jam percent and/or Time, with the side effect of making the AC2 look useful.

The reason no one uses the AC2 is because it's TOO HOT and TOO HEAVY.

The AC10 is bad because the projectile is too slow so it's extra range over the AC20 is hard to make use of with accuracy, it fires too slowly, and it's too heavy for what it does, and for 2 extra tons you could just take an AC20 and deal double the damage with an alpha strike, despite only having marginally more DPS over the AC10, the heavy alpha strike damage really does make a huge difference.

[Mothykins]

QuantumButler, on 10 November 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

The reason no one uses the AC2 is because it's TOO HOT and TOO HEAVY.

The AC10 is bad because the projectile is too slow so it's extra range over the AC20 is hard to make use of with accuracy, it fires too slowly, and it's too heavy for what it does, and for 2 extra tons you could just take an AC20 and deal double the damage with an alpha strike, despite only having marginally more DPS over the AC10, the heavy alpha strike damage really does make a huge difference.

Eeeeexcept I pointed most of that out indirectly. DPS/T is a good indicator of these inequities. the AC20 and AC10 have nearly the same DPS/T, so why would you take the smaller Alpha? Meanwhile, the AC2 is actually really Damage to weight efficient (30% more than the AC20,) but the heat generation on it is obscene (40% more heat.)

Meanwhile, the AC5 is just obscenely better. Like, we're talking gains of +150% heat efficiency on the AC2, and +66% on the AC10 AND AC20. This is not at all correct in any imaginable way, and saying it is happens to be just plain defense of a broken mechanic.

Edited by Cavale, 10 November 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Kalrithian]

The auto-cannons don't follow a linear progression. You are comparing different weapons solely on an incomplete list of stats.

Perhaps you're right had the weapons sitting on a turret firing at an object right in front of them.

The amount of slots used by a weapon also comes it play. Most mechs are "real-estate" limited.

I can easily run some number and say, "The AC/2 is broken. It does 2.78 DPS per slot used compared the the AC/5s .75 DPS per slot!"

[Mothykins]

Kalrithian, on 10 November 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

The auto-cannons don't follow a linear progression. You are comparing different weapons solely on an incomplete list of stats.

Perhaps you're right had the weapons sitting on a turret firing at an object right in front of them.

The amount of slots used by a weapon also comes it play. Most mechs are "real-estate" limited.

I can easily run some number and say, "The AC/2 is broken. It does 2.78 DPS per slot used compared the the AC/5s .75 DPS per slot!"

My goodness, You're correct! So me saying that there should be a linear progression is...

Still totally founded.

No **** the larger, bulkier weapons should have some form of advantage. That's a serious no-brainer. That doesn't change that the AC5 is ludicrously out of line. Hell, take the time and line up the Laser family. They're 100% linear, and even when the Large laser takes up extra slots and is much heavier than a Medium, it still drops in overall ton-for-ton efficiency. Gosh.

Maybe, just maybe, the DPS advantage is reduced by, I dunno, maybe the fact that the larger IS ACs deliver the damage in one huge chunk? Lower face time?

There is literally no logical reason for them to be this skewed. None.

[pwnface]

You know maybe the AC/2 just needs to have he heat reduced a bit to make the progression more linear.

I think the AC/5 is pretty good where it is, maybe the UAC/5 can have a lower jam chance but a much longer jam duration. Quirks/modules could be used to reduce the jam time down from a base of maybe 8-10 seconds? This makes running into a jam much more problematic in a firefight but make the UAC/5 even more dangerous when it is working properly. I feel like having a weapon jam on you in a fight shouldn't be a temporary setback (unjams while still in the middle of the action) and more of a "oh crap, my gun is ****ED" situation.

Edited by pwnface, 10 November 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Herr Vorragend]

The jamming should be reduced for the IS-UACs. There 's no reason to take an uac5 over an ac5. You should be able to hold the fire-button and shoot with reduced rate of jamming. That would be the best for this weaponsystem.

[terrycloth]

The ACs aren't a linear progression, they're good for different things.

AC5 is a very low heat weapon that I use when the rest of a build is hot. UAC5 is an upgraded version of it that sometimes jams.

(Clan LB5X is pretty nice, too -- fast projectiles, relatively tight grouping)

AC20 is a big SLAM for killing things at short range. I miss with it a lot though.

AC2 is a long-range sniping weapon that I combine with ER LLas because of the projectile speed... but it's way too hot, for no apparent reason. I don't use it much.

AC10 is a useless piece of crap that's basically a nerfed AC20.

LB10x has a higher projectile speed giving it an actually longer effective range, although it spreads damage everywhere, and between the lower weight and lower ammo weight is actually sometimes worth using. I will always use this over an AC10... but I have exactly one mech that uses it, so, yeah.

I think... that what needs to be fixed is the AC2. Reduce the heat. A lot.