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Faction Challenge 3


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#261 Chimperator

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:58 PM

@PGI

Kills and assists must have the same weight 10/10 or 20/20... whatever...
Only Solo queue otherwise u get 12men groups where 1-4 guys can farm like these guys they got the top places at the moment.
(not all, like me B) )

Maybe a percentual score of the ingame match-score.

Smth. like that would be fair and people with awesome skills/aim would have the top scores and not every low-bob with his LRM boat just standing around, don't need to aim, just sitting there waitn for locks and spam his shi... on his low-elo ranked games where the enemys dosent know how to counter LRMboats...

Realy PGI stop devolp this game like an COD in Battletech universe...
And stop nerf all weapons they need aim and stop buffing these lock-on crap!!!

#262 DarthPeanut

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:47 PM

Well in follow up to my comments before this started and to highlight why a lot of people think this system of scoring is flawed I will use a match I had a little bit ago as an example.

I am in a slow Banshee-3E. On the far spawn from the rest of team. I play catch up to them for a bit. Team has already picked off a couple and engaged by the time I get there cause both sides pushed right at each other immediately. As soon as I get there I push into the fight. I end up 4 kills, 2 assist, and 673 dmg. Score was 125 by this scoring system, not qualified for the 100k bonus (not worried about tourney, burnt out on them this time).

Spider on our team (not in our group) did 113 dmg going leroy but got 7 assist... qualified match. Same for a raven with 9 assist and 154 dmg.


Overall I like the bonus money and whatnot that is possible this event. Just suggesting maybe another look at this scoring before the next event. It does not accurately reflect the work people are putting into a match.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 15 November 2014 - 10:59 PM.


#263 CimaGarahau

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:06 PM

Well, doesn'tlook that bad for the iron fist! Continue like this.

#264 Moment Killer

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:07 AM

I have to say, I've never been in this position before. Seeing a Timberwolf with bright flashy crit red CT, and having to make a decision of whether or not to kill it. While it still does have weapons, and is shoosting my teammates. Not killing it doesn't seem... honorable? Glad I'm not clan. =)

Any chance we'll ever get a bracketed tournament? Possibly solo or lance? But seriously, hopefully solo.

#265 Kodyn

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:39 AM

View PostDarthPeanut, on 15 November 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:


....

Overall I like the bonus money and whatnot that is possible this event. Just suggesting maybe another look at this scoring before the next event. It does not accurately reflect the work people are putting into a match.


^This is really the heart of the problem. It's a formula and event that seems tailor-made to abuse. If you aren't willing to, or are for some reason unable to try and abuse the system, you aren't likely to get much of anything out of the event.

This means that anyone not opted in still gets to deal with people playing differently just to abuse the formula, and everyone who is opted in is working counter to each other unless they're in a pre-made group, since everyone on the same team all trying for assists doesn't exactly go well for anyone on said team...

What's most confusing and disheartening about this whole thing is that multiple very easy to implement ideas have been proposed to fix these issues(not only during this event, but every event lately that has used the same or similar scoring metric), and there seems to be zero Dev interest.

I mean, why have a thread attached to every event if the feedback is going to be ignored? Most of us are not being rude about it, nor throwing fits, we're just pointing out that this system is very flawed, causes very poor game play, and is not really a contest at all, nor should it even be providing PGI with any useful metrics, as all they are going to be recording is data on people abusing a poorly thought out scoring formula, not actual, normal game play for players.

The simplest, easiest to implement solution that has been repeated most is to just make assists and kills scored equally. It's a band-aid, and doesn't make the event perfect, but it would be a big improvement, and even that's gone ignored. I guess the most confusing thing for me is why they do these events...what data they expect to find, when it's clear that many people are not playing as they normally do, and in their normal builds, so it's all going to be skewed data that won't be relevant to anything outside of events run with bad formulas...

None of this is meant to be sarcastic, or offensive, I legitimately would like to know what PGI thinks about these events, why they ignore our opinions and suggestions on them, and what data they are trying to gather. Maybe they do have some explanation that makes sense, i'd just really be interested to hear it.

#266 mad kat

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 01:30 AM

Forced to use my boring lrm boats for the tournament now as my pc has broken so using a naff laptop.

But i really like the cbill rewards helping to top up my account after just buying an xl255. And a hula girl too. Sweet. Best tourney yet i think, even prefer it to the halloween one. Only gripe is i never have enough time to play tournaments enough.

Edited by mad kat, 16 November 2014 - 01:31 AM.


#267 Reno Blade

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 01:56 AM

I don't have a problem with kills/assists or the way it is calculated, even tho the idea of adding "most-damage" or "solo-kill" would be great.
Sticking with the team or flanking before the push will bring a lot of assists and kills and I don't hesitate to kill something, because it makes me and my team stay alive longer so everyone will have a higher chance to get assists and to win the game.

The only problem is, if you push too fast without your team and get killed without touching anything.
So it seems the best idea is to do some flanking and hit&run to weaken the enemy formation and armor and secure yourself assists and then finish them in the main push.
Thats easier in light&medium mechs, but they are more vulnerable compared to the big boys, so it works out for all classes.

#268 Kodyn

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 02:16 AM

I wish people would realize that a few positive personal experiences do not make a scoring formula a good one...

Most of us trying to get this stuff changed are not doing it simply because we personally don't enjoy the way it's done currently, but because we also notice many, many others not enjoying it, and want to see the game itself do well.

I feel like every time someone posts something about what's wrong with the event, a devil's advocate has to come in and talk about how perfect it is and how much they love it...

That's fantastic for you that you are able to look past the problems and enjoy yourself. That does not change the fact that the scoring formula in general promotes poor game play. Just because you personally are able to make it work without abusing the system, and have no issues with it, does not make it a good system.

It's not going to hurt those of you that had no issues with the formulas if they fix it for the majority, it will only enhance the experience for everyone. Except of course the few who do actually enjoy knowing they're gaming the system and getting free rewards for selfish, non-team oriented gameplay. I will point out that team play is part of this game, and that most players are blatantly ignoring that while participating in these tourneys, as actions such as holding off on killing an opponent display.

If you call that "working as intended" or say L2P, you clearly have no idea of what keeps online games alive and customers happy. I'm not saying events should be easy, nor all as rewarding as Halloween, but they shouldn't be an in-game representation of exploitation of poorly thought-out and designed scoring formulas. And besides, it's not even that this event is in any way hard, it's just a matter of exploiting the bad formula. In fact it pretty much rewards you for playing the exact opposite of how you normally should...so maybe that's supposed to be the challenge?

Those of us who keep reiterating this stuff are not doing so just to be negative and because we're pissed about something. At least I'm not. I honestly see a major problem here, honestly do not fathom in the least what PGI is trying to accomplish with the skewed stats they'll receive, and honestly and genuinely just want to see an improved player experience.

#269 Saobh

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 03:03 AM

Well you have to admit there is one result from how the score is calculated : I'm seeing a lot more enemy Mechs loosing a lot of their extremities before getting killed. Which tbh is a nice change in rhythm from the one shot kill mechanic people where always running after

I've even seen 3 times yesterday where the enemy mech lost his 2 arms and 1 leg before being finished off by a leg kill.

But yeah the "assist" and "kill" metric for tourneys should be abandoned and use most of the new rewards system we now have.

#270 akakiwu490

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:06 AM

I apologize for the length of this post. I do not post on the forums often, if really ever, because usually someone has said what I want to say in the way I want to say it. While I realize that many of these points will have been made before, and I’ve tried to minimize explanation of my views where that is true, these tournaments are an enormous source of frustration for me lately. While the particular issues I have with the way they operate may be something in common with others, I feel as though myreasons for having these issues differs.

Let me tell a brief tale. The first leader board tournament in which I participated was Medium vs. the World. Being that I suck at mediums and had few, I played heavies. I placed 26th in heavies. I was ecstatic. Had I had more time, I might have been able to get a few more key matches to make the top 15. This weekend I find myself beyond frustrated with the tournament. I have played 33 qualifying matches and am just above 200. My skill is the same as it used to be, if not better, and yet I cannot secure a reasonable place in the rankings.

I do not say that because I cannot accept that there are those who are more skilled than me. That I can accept without qualm, knowing that I played my best and that there were others who were far, far better. What bothers me is that this tournament has nothing to do with skill anymore.

One player was entering matches and talking in general about how he doesn’t want to kill anyone. He lamented when he did. I wonder why that is.

I know of people who drop in groups of 2-3 hoping to catch small spots in large, organized groups. They do this knowing that the odds of winning will be greater, as will their ability to sneak in and tap as many mechs as possible for assists.

I know of people who have literally spent this entire weekend doing nothing but playing MWO. Some of them have well over the 100 qualifying matches that would earn their max c-bill rewards.

Attempts by the few to cheat the system do not necessarily mean the system must be dismantled as broken and rebuilt. Usually. When all of the people I speak of above are in the top 15 of the leader boards, it should send a very, very clear message. I doubt that many of the other top players don't somehow fit into those categories. The tournaments now are won only by gaming the system, not by playing as intended.

The simple fact is that players who can spend their entire weekend spamming matches not only get the c-bill rewards, but by virtue of playing more matches have a better chance of hitting the top 15. They are not punished, except in the case of a tie, for just spamming matches. I work nights on weekends, I do not have that luxury. Should I--and the countless others who no doubt have similar work situations--be stripped of a fair chance at the MC prizes, to say nothing of the full c-bill rewards, simply for not having jobs that are conducive to playing MWO all weekend?

That’s to say nothing of the scoring. Simply put, most matches I’ve played involve everyone tapping as many mechs as possible and then nobody pushing. Rather than promote teamwork, the scoring formula has promoted cowardice. In the old style scoring, being alive at the end of a match mattered. Now, one need only score hits on as many mechs as possible, break down as much damage as he can before he dies, and then hope to win. Doing so could easily reward the player 270 points for a match while having, essentially, contributed nothing to the team.

Rather than spend more time and words discussing weaknesses, I propose the following ideas on ways to make the tournaments more even.

1) Run fewer leader board tournaments for longer. Do a 5 day tournament once a month. Or a one week tournament every six weeks. That way people who aren’t able to play as much on weekends can do so other times.

2) Go back to the old scoring formula, or some variation thereof. I do not know that counting losses again would be useful, but it might help. I have played some very, very strong matches (6 kills, 4 assists, 1000 damage in one case) that ended up a loss which came down to me and one other. Rewarding for staying alive prevents kamikaze. Rather than reward heavily for kills, reward evenly for kills and assists. Perhaps even go back to spotting assists counting. Who ranks highest shouldn’t just be who can hit the most mechs, it should be who contributes the most to his team. Who plays the best.

3) Find a way to reduce match-spamming. Regardless of the duration of a tournament, penalize people for playing tons of matches and hoping that a few in there bring them to the top. As-is, a tie would be decided by this, but it has no influence otherwise. Someone who ranks 2rd by playing a mere 20 matches total would be somehow considered worse than someone who places 1st by playing many, many matches. That isn’t a show of skill, that’s a show of free time.

As a suggestion, why not allow up to 100 matches total (not just those that qualify, in the case that only wins count toward your score) before beginning to penalize players by reduced points. As an example, I play 100 matches and have a total score of 2500. I play my 101st match and score 260 points, but because its over 100 I lose, say, 10 points. Now it’s a 250 point match. My ranking wouldn't improve. Scale the penalty at various tiers. Someone who plays 200 matches loses 20 points per match for matches 200-299. You lose 30 points per match for 300-399. And so on. Perhaps install a hard cap at, say, 500 matches total.

The idea of doing this, versus just cutting off at 100, is to allow people to still have exceptional matches that can positively impact points. If my overall score is 2500 and in my 201st game I score 310 points, I still get 290 to my total score. Thus, my ranking improves. But also, it doesn’t improve as much as if I had played fewer. This way, people can still make it to the top by playing lots of games, but they will hit an upper limit. It rewards skill, not spamming.

Hell, worst case scenario, only count the first 100 matches for leader boards and the rest only count for c-bills. Institute a hard limit. Again, not just the matches that qualify, but total matches. I have 2200 points after 33 matches. 100 matches is plenty to make sure you got a representative sample of your best matches. I am willing to bet many of the people in the top 15 wouldn't appear in the next tournament if this were instituted. (If any of you out there are going to rage on me about how you totally played less than 100 total matches and are #1, great, then you should have NO PROBLEM with a hard limit like this. Let them institute it and then prove me wrong.)

4) Do not allow group queues to count in leader board challenges. I’m sure one could make great arguments both ways on this, but I think it is unfair to those who cannot group with others to play. Since this is ranked, the playing field should be totally level. People who can group have an advantage.

These are just a few suggestions. There are, no doubt, problems with them. Nonetheless, I do not believe in pointing out flaws without at least suggesting a fix. There is something wrong here, and while we may not all agree how wrong or what is wrong, I think we can at least agree that it is not as it should be.

I will end by saying that there are times, in the buildup to CW, that I get bored with this game. Leader board challenges like this weekend's used to excite me. They gave me a reason to play. They give me a reason, both leading up to them and during them, to push myself to play the best I possibly can. And not just as a giant metallic Rambo, hoping to gun down the entire enemy team in a blaze of glory, but by participating actively in that team to push us, and myself, to success.

At least, that's what they used to be. Now they're about as fair as an election would have been in the USSR. Come to think of it, the military strategy required to do well in these tournaments is about the same as the USSR, as well.

Edited by akakiwu490, 16 November 2014 - 04:34 AM.


#271 BINDLETORC

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 07:33 AM

I always enjoy these events but have to agree with a lot of folks above. The scoring could definitely be changed to improve the type of game play we are all seeing.
On the bright side, since I still play the way I normally would my K/D ratio is through the roof as well as my W/L. Putting the bonus c-bills aside my regular c-bill earnings are also through the roof.
Thanks everyone for the kills and the money :)

#272 ExoForce

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:59 AM

Thank You for changing score calculation. Before I was pi***d a little, now I am cool.

#273 That Dawg

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:20 AM

View PostShalune, on 13 November 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:



Are people like me just shafted? I'd much rather have a Ghost Bear theme item in the event they win than dog tags.



I'm guessing some will think I'm being a ****. A mechdick.
but..this was all disclosed last week.
And, before you go off telling me how busy realife is, I - just me, your mileage may vary- always read the contest rules BEFORE I enter anything......so, I spotted the "once you opt in" part.
How are you screwed? NO........really, I mean unless you cancelled the flights to Paris to play a game this weekend, how is getting cbills no matter how meager, getting some stuff, no matter how inconsequential is getting "shafted"?
I've wanted that hula girl thing for a while, NOT enough to spend on it, but I have coveted it, and now......I got it.

free

#274 Man with Axe

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:07 AM

From my point of view it is an awful event. Solo queue became hateful LRM festival and even group queue gameplay was significantly affected by that rule about 20 points per assist. I can appreciate your efforts to prepare to CW, but they should not spoil regular matches. Please, give us few weekends without hordes farming for some stupid points and find solution to balance LRMs in solo queue already.

#275 Gyr Falcon

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:15 AM

View PostThat Dawg, on 16 November 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:



I'm guessing some will think I'm being a ****. A mechdick.
but..this was all disclosed last week.
And, before you go off telling me how busy realife is, I - just me, your mileage may vary- always read the contest rules BEFORE I enter anything......so, I spotted the "once you opt in" part.
How are you screwed? NO........really, I mean unless you cancelled the flights to Paris to play a game this weekend, how is getting cbills no matter how meager, getting some stuff, no matter how inconsequential is getting "shafted"?
I've wanted that hula girl thing for a while, NOT enough to spend on it, but I have coveted it, and now......I got it.

free



Hula girl is cool, I want to see why she doesn't lie...

#276 FlipOver

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:35 AM

View PostSteele Rein, on 16 November 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Why are none of my matches today registering?

If you are IS, you can only take IS mechs for the challenge to take into account.

#277 Kodyn

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:07 AM

View Postakakiwu490, on 16 November 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Lots of really pertinent and valid points and ideas...


I wish I could like your post more than once, well said.

#278 cc steve dallas

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:22 AM

My matches stopped showing up yesterday evening. Have at least three that should be there.

SD

#279 Kodyn

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 03:15 PM

I'm assuming the matches updating is lagging behind a little more than the usual 15 mins, since I'm seeing a lot of people say they aren't seeing games, and now I'm experiencing that as well.

Was going good last night, updated every 15 mins or so, then today it recorded my first 3 valid matches, and stopped...I've been running with a group and we've been keeping track with calculators, and definitely a few hours behind on updated matches.

Hoping it's just lag and the matches didn't disappear into the ether...that would be the icing on the cake for this event.

#280 cc steve dallas

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:51 PM

My overall total wins is going up...the C-Bill reward seems correct. Just missing the match detail.





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