13 replies to this topic

[Kyrs]

Section that ppl don't read:

LRM what to do.
Currently your best option is HARD counter ECM.

The AMS is mainly under utilise sinces performe extremely better vs lrm5 (destroyed estimated 90% missile) then a lrm15 (destroyed estimated 30%).
The current system force player to basiclly boat LRM if they want them be useful. Which goes agains mwo main goal of having diverse weapon setup.

We see two different gaming experience in 12 man ang pug. The 12 man exploites the hard counter ECM with a brawling blitz. (Making the LRM useless)
The Pugs well there... humm... still trying to kill LRM boats with more LRM. Lets leave it a that!


Personally I find that two things here are to blame; the lack off effective soft counter AMS, and the hard counter ECM (THE MAGIC JESSUS BOX reinforced with kyptonite cassing).

Let's ignore the ECM edge case exploite and try to find a soft counter that encourages diverse builds.

The ams has two potential option to reduce the lrm70 abuse vs a lrm 10 secondary weapon.



Option 1
-flat % rate of missile destruction per second

Advantage: Fairly easy to understand and balance.
Cons: Give the impression of a banaid solution.


Option 2
-Linearincrease in rate of fire for the ams
ex: double every 1.5 sec, with 0.5 second cooldown rate reset

Advantage: Encourage team work for a syncronized FULL SALVE.
Advanatage 2: Reduce effectiveness of the chain fire abuse to premently blind the oppenent
Adavantage 3: Encourage the proper use of LRM tube numbres to match the lrm fitted
ex: STK-F we be less effective the the STK-3H.
ref: STK-F lrm boating
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c1b2aa7d16deef7
ref: STK-M lrm boating
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b5fb5649fe31149
Cons: Fairly hard to undestand for new player that ams will **** all incoming missile after 4.5 sec (mindless spawing doest work)


p.s. sorry for my quality of spelling, my main goal wasn't to making yours eye bleed.

Edited by Kyrs, 11 November 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

ok it has been a while since i have last overlooked the AMS.
But afaik a increase of RoF will not kill more missiles - simple because the AMS needs 0.5sec to switch from one missile to another.
The most ammunition of your AMS is spend while the gun is firing at incoming missiles beyond its effective range.
Or in other words if you have good timing - you can intercept 3 missiles when you activate the AMS when the missiles are only 160m away.
While the shooting from 240 to 160m and the hundreds of spend shots will only shot one missile from the air.

So there are two different approaches.
Its obvious that a saturation attack should be able to overwhelm any point defense system. The more missiles the better the chance that they will hit the target.
On the other hand you are right - if you kick a complete salvo of 5 LRMs out of the sky there is no effective usage for this missile system.

Under this light - i would think a % flat rate for the AMS would be the best option - if spread for all missile launchers are the same (currently the smaller launchers have less spread)

lets see if I'm able to visualize it:

each minor circle includes missiles of your attack. If you fire 5 missiles - 5 of those circles are full.
The standard AMS without modules can attack one circle after another - and spend 100-200 shots to do this.
Each missile in such a circle is destroyed - when the AMS is able to fire 200 shots.
After shoting at such a circle the system switches to another attack circle after 0.5-0.7 seconds.

So lets suggest that the AMS is capable of firing 280 shots - 200 for the first 80 for a second circle.
Target was a LRM 5 - you did spend 200 shots for the destruction of 1 missile , and 80/200 round up - for a second LRM.

Your AMS is depleted after hardly 10 incoming LRM 5s - so you should disable the AMS.

On the other hand - if the missile strike consists of 45 LRMs. it will fire 200 shots to kill 6 missiles. and 80 shots to kill another 3 missiles.

OK thats a theory - where you can have both the advantage of saturation fire and still a some how effective LRM (even if the spread means you deal 1 dmg at each location) It also adds some "thinking" for the AMS user - you have to identify the incoming missile thread and switch on / off your AMS as you need it

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 November 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[Kyrs]

Hummm nice concept Karl !!

I love the concept of activating and de-activating the ams. It should give more deep to the game by adding a micro-managing ams system.

I've added your option to the choice selection

Edited by Kyrs, 11 November 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Erebus Alpha]

Karl's idea got me thinking of another optimization to AMS: Directionality and missile density, instead of missile health.

What we need is a firing cone for the AMS - say, fifteen degrees - and a range (200 meters will do nicely, no change necessary here). The AMS needs only to behave intelligently enough to capture as many missiles in its firing cone as possible. The coding to do this should not be complicated at all.

Then, we make it behave such that each round the AMS fires has a chance of hitting a missile - calculated on a per-missile basis. It's important to design this system so that the servers won't spontaneously burst into flames, so we'll simplify the calculations a bit:

Calculate the number of missiles in the fire cone every 0.5 seconds.
Dp = (i/18)^2 + i/18
Dm = (i/21)^2 + i/21

Dp = Missiles destroyed at peak effectiveness (Always rounded up, never down)
Dm = Missiles destroyed at minimum effectiveness (Always rounded down, never up)
i = Incoming missiles (in fire cone)

There is a theoretical maximum. During this 0.5 second calculation window, an AMS may fire (at maximum) fifteen rounds. So an AMS can shoot down a maximum of 15 random missiles every 0.5 seconds, as missile saturation approaches infinity. Even if Dp or Dm exceed 15, the fifteen-missile-cap will persist.

Now let's assume a wide variety of circumstances, and calculate how this AMS would behave in each one:
Incoming LRM 5: Between 0 and 1 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
Incoming LRM 10: Between 0 and 1 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
Incoming LRM 20: Between 1 and 3 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
30 total LRM alpha: Between 3 and 5 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
45 total LRM alpha: Between 6 and 9 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
80 total LRM alpha: 15 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
120 total LRM alpha: 15 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds

The LRM metagame will change significantly, and will become explicitly anti-alpha, favoring maneuvering, flanking, chain-firing, and holding targets for longer than a few seconds. Front-loading damage with a massive swarm of LRM death will be tricky and complex even for premade groups, and pure LRM assault/heavy builds will become niche-builds. Playing LRMs will become a game of AMS ammo management vs. LRM ammo management - with an almost infinite capacity for either side to fail miserably by running out of ammo.

[Telmasa]

I could see where you were going with option 1, but considering the logic of how AMS works...I don't think it makes much sense.


Option 2, at least, is plausible by explaining that the AMS has to "spin up/spool up" to full rate of fire, thus explaining the increase in ROF over time. The only stipulation I would have is that it would need some kind of hard limit; 1 AMS by itself shouldn't be able to cover a a deathball of 12 mechs by itself with a few seconds of firing, that's all.



Or, basically, keep the same system we have now, just buff AMS *a LITTLE BIT* - just a touch, not a swinging game-changer kind of buff.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 November 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[Kyrs]

Yes I must admit that the Option 1 sound a bit illogical at first.

The best way I can explain it is with a machine gun nest positioning and the implication of different angle of fire on a line formation of soldier.

If you put 5 glass in front of you in a perpendicular line to you. Then notice how the gap between the glass seen to reduce by shifting your position so you are at a 45 degree angle from that line formation. You should notice that the gap has shrunk between the glass from that new perceptive, thus increase your chance to hit a glass when fire multiple slightly precise round.

Same principal apply to swarm of missile coming directly at you. The anti-missile aims at missile by flooding the general direction with rounds. Event if the ams miss the missile it aim at, it will most likely hit an other missile right next to hit. More missile you adds more chances you have to take one out. (due to stacking effect front that line of sight).

Maybe I should put an increase %, if more missile come at the target to make thing look more real.

Edited by Kyrs, 12 November 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[xWiredx]

Honestly, I think the addition of an AMS assistance reward combined with the existing AMS overload and AMS range modules is all that's really needed, along with maybe another 0.1 decrease in LRM damage or slight decrease in LRM HP (I can't recall what it is now so I can't say if it could be lowered or not). We don't need to change the way AMS works, we really just need team members to use it more often and more effectively.

[Kyrs]

Thanks for your input and voting xWiredx

[Barkem Squirrel]

I would go with some rewards prior to changing anything for now.

Lets see what affects the usefulness of LRMs

• terrain (cover), this can be the LRM boat being too close to some terrain to fire over it or the target being behind terrain that when the LRMs are descending it can not hit him. Remember even being under ground or platforms LRM boats can still hit you, depending on range.
  
• Max Range, how many times has a commando, locust or spider just out ran the LRMs, AUGH!
  
• Range, the farther you are away from the LRM laucher the less missiles will hit, well at least until the Clan Streak LRMs come out.
  
• ECM, the LRM nerf that was introduced in December 2012 and change the game at the time. So we can now TAG out to 750 m instead of the 450m, use NARC, and then use BAP to counter out to 360 m now. I am wondering if the ECM in counter mode also goes out to 360 m or is still 180 m? The BAP counter now makes ECM mechs weight the options, unless running in a two or three mech ECM pack.
  
• Radar Deprivation, when it came out with the clan package many people were using this module, but since then only every once in a while I see someone using it. It is very effective and normally I will prioritize targets with it just after ECM mechs. I even use it to draw fire from other LRM boats just to waste their ammo.
  
• UAV's, very good for spotting, negating ECM. It can be shot down and also has a limited life span.
  
• NARC, lets just say get behind terrain (find cover) or die within 10 seconds and aquiring missile lock takes less time.
  
• TAG, well you are it with bonuses for missile tracking and a decresed time to aquire missile lock.
  
• Artemis, again there are bonuses for missile tracking or more will hit.
  
• BAP/CAP, these give sensor range extensions, allows for quicker locks and with the affects to ECM out to 360 m.
  
• Advanced Sensor range, extending the detection range for locks
  
• Advanced target decay, allows for an extended targeting period after breaking lock
  
• Target info Gathering, allows for quicker locks
  
• Command Console/targeting computers, allows for quicker locks and sensor range increase
  
• AMS, what we are talking about. some people will run with them, but sadly many people just do not use them. There are matches from time to time where it seems the other team all have AMS, and that all but shuts one or two LRM boats down. This is where you want to be patient and wait for them to separate a bit to only fight one or two AMS. With 30 missiles I will stop firing if I see three AMS and if there are 5 AMS no missiles will hit the target most of the time.
  
• How you fire will make a difference: volley, chain and if you fire with larger launchers than tube count for Inner Sphere mechs. Do you have one massive 60 or 30 mass of missiles firing or do you fire an LRM 20 out of a 6 tube launcher?
  
• AMS range 5 and AMS overload modules, it allows for more shots at the missiles during the flight. 10% more due to the over load and a buff to the range, so maybe 2 missiles more per volley are shot down.
  
• AMS ammo count , inner sphere ammo increased to 2000 rounds in the 4 November patch. Now we have twice the Ammo, and the same as the clans AMS ammo per ton.
  
• LRM damage reduction in 4 November patch of 0.1 damage to 1 damage with no splash damage. We use to have 1.5 damage with splash damage to other components.

I still feel that some C-bill or XP bonus should be there for AMS cover for LRMs and SRMS. We may be forgetting the effects of AMS on SRMS.


So looking at giving rewards for having AMS here are some ideas:

10 C-bills for one missile shot down targeted at you
15 C-bills for one missile shot down targeted at a teammate.
1 XP per second of AMS in use

looking at my data for AMS use that is 1day 23:00:02 or about 169,202 XP and about 8,400 GXP. As for C-bills we know that AMS fires about 3.5 damage every second, so maybe 3 missiles. Using that information I would have only gained between 500,000 to 750,000 C-bills since the stats reset.

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 12 November 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[ExAstris]

ABFalcon is on the right track for any potential buff to AMS.

I'm not sure it needs a buff, and I think Falcon's numbers would make it egregiously op, but the gist of his idea is on the right track and here's why: It makes no sense for AMS to magically increase its rof when there are more missiles around. (why can't I just tell it to fire at max rate all the time and total obliterate smaller volleys?) Further % destruction rates also don't make sense for the same reason. If I shoot 10 rounds at an enemy soldier and he dies, that doesn't mean that firing 10 rounds at a platoon will kill the whole platoon.

So the middle ground is to give AMS a slight increase in effective 'hit-rate' when firing into volleys of missiles. The larger the volley, the better the 'hit-rate' of the AMS. Mathematically we can just treat it as a damage increase for AMS when X number of missiles are in its targeting zone. That way it keep using the same amount of ammo and doesn't magically always get a certain percentage. But it can get a bit more effective when firing at a cloud as opposed to a lone narc. Much like actual AAA in WWII against squadrons of enemy aircraft.



The downside is that I don't think this should really be implemented. IS-LRMs need their volley damage to be competitive with ultra lightweight C-LRMs. Further, the LRM boats themselves already have a nice cost-benefit system in place for streaming smaller launchers vs using heavy IS launchers for tighter volleys.


So if you think LRMs in general are OP, then either change LRMs or give a general buff to AMS.
Or if you think LRMs only have one effective way to be used, then you should change LRM mechanics to encourage diversity there.

Either way, this change/buff seems to upset the balance table in a way that isn't needed and will make future balancing even harder.

[s0hno]

Quote

Either way, this change/buff seems to upset the balance table in a way that isn't needed and will make future balancing even harder.

The point is, the lrm mechanics are not balanced in any way at this time. During the tournaments, lrms are even used more intensively because of their advantage over direct fire weapons. (In groups drops, in contrast, they can be rendered useless quite easily)
I agree that significant change has to be done; especially in pug drops, any tactics are deteriorated because of 2 or more lrm boats per team, making it even harder for beginners or any player to have fun.

Increasing the effectiveness of AMS against large missile groups seems to be a valid option.
Attratcing more players to use AMS, however, appears to be more important, since lrms are only overused in pug drops. Generally, 2 options seem most obvious:

1. Introduce AMS rewards, as Barkem Squirrel proposed

2. Make AMS easier to integrate. There are laser driven AMS in the BattleTech universe (as far as I remember), time to implement that. No ammo, 1 ton, some more heat. That should be fine.

These are only minor, indirect adjustments. In my personal opinion, I'd be happy to see significant lrm nerves: double minimum range (expecially c-lrms), -25% ammo per ton, -25% fire rate....
Would be sad though, sometimes I like to play lrm boat; no focus needed, one can eat or smoke while playing and not even think about any advanced tactics, and still do 1000 dmg. I understand why some people still defend the current system.

Edited by s0hno, 14 November 2014 - 02:30 AM.

[Lily from animove]

ABFalcon, on 11 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Karl's idea got me thinking of another optimization to AMS: Directionality and missile density, instead of missile health.

What we need is a firing cone for the AMS - say, fifteen degrees - and a range (200 meters will do nicely, no change necessary here). The AMS needs only to behave intelligently enough to capture as many missiles in its firing cone as possible. The coding to do this should not be complicated at all.

Then, we make it behave such that each round the AMS fires has a chance of hitting a missile - calculated on a per-missile basis. It's important to design this system so that the servers won't spontaneously burst into flames, so we'll simplify the calculations a bit:

Calculate the number of missiles in the fire cone every 0.5 seconds.
Dp = (i/18)^2 + i/18
Dm = (i/21)^2 + i/21

Dp = Missiles destroyed at peak effectiveness (Always rounded up, never down)
Dm = Missiles destroyed at minimum effectiveness (Always rounded down, never up)
i = Incoming missiles (in fire cone)

There is a theoretical maximum. During this 0.5 second calculation window, an AMS may fire (at maximum) fifteen rounds. So an AMS can shoot down a maximum of 15 random missiles every 0.5 seconds, as missile saturation approaches infinity. Even if Dp or Dm exceed 15, the fifteen-missile-cap will persist.

Now let's assume a wide variety of circumstances, and calculate how this AMS would behave in each one:
Incoming LRM 5: Between 0 and 1 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
Incoming LRM 10: Between 0 and 1 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
Incoming LRM 20: Between 1 and 3 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
30 total LRM alpha: Between 3 and 5 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
45 total LRM alpha: Between 6 and 9 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
80 total LRM alpha: 15 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds
120 total LRM alpha: 15 missiles destroyed every 0.5 seconds

The LRM metagame will change significantly, and will become explicitly anti-alpha, favoring maneuvering, flanking, chain-firing, and holding targets for longer than a few seconds. Front-loading damage with a massive swarm of LRM death will be tricky and complex even for premade groups, and pure LRM assault/heavy builds will become niche-builds. Playing LRMs will become a game of AMS ammo management vs. LRM ammo management - with an almost infinite capacity for either side to fail miserably by running out of ammo.

I use the lrm 10's on my timby anways, because of , higher shot density, faster refire time, you system would actually favour even more lrm 10 racks. Further more, what lrm meta? average elo is about many lrms, but the meta isn't.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 14 November 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

Further more, what lrm meta? average elo is about many lrms, but the meta isn't.

This is another aspect - a better AMS won't change either - because Meta Group Games don't use LRMs at all.

It would make only a difference for PUG games - because the only real defense vs LRMs is to charge. To charge on the other hands need better coordination as you can have in PUG games - even in small group PUG games - coordination is a problem.

Well to kill the "ability" of smaller Missile Racks -there are two ways: increase the spread . your LRM 10 or LRM 5 may hit the target and hardly loose a missile - but thanks to missile spread out of 5 LRMs only 3 may hit the target, 4 when using Artemis - 2 when dodging.
the second is to get the same reload times... it doesn't make sense that a LRM 5 reloads much faster as a LRM 10.

[Skribs]

Make it so LRMs can't come in nearly vertical and it will be a lot better.