144 replies to this topic

[Voyager I]

Fastred, on 25 June 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

If the weapon hits it will do damage, does not matter if its a machine gun or AC20, this fact has not changed in almost three decades.

While you are technically correct in that all weapons will do some damage if they hit you (no bounces for us, please), that does not mean an MG is at all equivalent to an AC/20. A scout mech's MG will probably be much less concerning to an Atlas than the Atlas's AC/20 is to the Scout.

When they say that every weight class has a place, I imagine that to mean that you will need scout mechs for things like scouting (no more magic radar), and the game will be set up so that the lack of mobility on the heaviest chassis will be a significant drawback. If you want want to kill things, you don't send a Jenner, no matter how good the pilot is, because that's not what Jenners are for.


This isn't to say that a stock Jenner is worthless in a fight (SRM-4 and a quartest of Medium Lasers is probably still more than a Trebuchet wants to deal with up close), but people seem to be thinking that "role warfare" means their 35 tonners will be flying death. Or maybe they're just assuming that everyone who drives anything heavier than a Hunchback is mentally impaired and won't be able do something like punch out one of their legs as long as they remember to hold down the W key.

Edited by Voyager I, 25 June 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Murku]

Watch the videos and look at the size difference between a 35 ton Jenner and a 100 ton Atlas.

Then figure that said Jenner can run at over twice the Atlas' speed.

Factor in potentual differences in turning and twisting.

Clearly the Atlas has a bazillion times more weapons, and nearly 5x the armor.

No single Jenner is going to solo an Atlas with ease, but this is a TEAM GAME.

Suddenly the Jenners and Commandos become mobile units able to flank with ease in a multi-mech conflict.

Any team thinking just Assaults are the way to go, when facing a mixed class group, are going to be playing catchup on a team with more ability to impliment tactics and some kind of battle plan.

Granted, if said mixed class group suck, or think their Lights can tank the Assaults then they are not going to get far. But still, Assaults are going to be more a reactive unit than an active one.

Edited by Murku, 25 June 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[Project_Mercy]

Under my understanding of WoT (Which I didn't play much), Lights physically can't damage Heavies and Super Heavies. Here, weapons are weapons. If you have the tonnage/slots to mount it, you can shoot it and it acts the same.

If, given flat terrain, non-supported, a fresh Jenner runs into a fresh Atlas, both with equal pilots, and the Jenner has a respectable chance of killing the Atlas, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the game. The Jenner is 3x faster than the Atlas. Nobody is going to play a game where you can choose to do something, or choose to do something and do it 3x faster. The Jenner is basically a fast assault/scout mech, and the Atlas is a defensive/bruiser. They serve different purposes. There shouldn't even be a question of what happens if the scout mech decides to go bruiser. It should fail (or succeed) quite spectacularly, depending on the pilots.

And the Hunchback vs Catapult doesn't even make sense. I assume he meant Treb vs Catapult, but didn't want to say Treb because it wasn't officially released yet. And both of those a relatively balanced. One's faster and gives up a ton of little things for it, but they both serve the same role.

Given this topic comes up multiple times every day, for as long as these forums have been around, you'd think they'd be a bit clearer about the response. I have to assume the reason they don't is because they don't actually know how they're going to do it yet. They just keep tweaking and hoping to come up with something. It takes a lot of shoring to keep a house up if you try to pull the foundations out of it.

[DreadDjinn]

The thing that hasn't changed about lights and heavies, is this:

An alpha-strike of an assault mech can one-shot some lights. It only takes one lucky shot. The same cannot be said of a light on assault attack.

Maneuverability is supposed to mitigate the chances of this happening, but there is a limit to this.

Imagine two skilled pilots with nearly flawless gunnery skills. Maneuverability becomes a moot point the higher you go up the gunnery skill range. So it behooves the best gunners to always choose the heaviest platform. There's limits to how good of an engine a light mech can have. Can you ever make an engine good enough to give the light enough speed to evade a crack marksman?

I've never seen anything do better than 200kph. If there's an assault pilot that can hit targets at that speed and at long range, it'll be like lemmings to the slaughter.

[Niccollo Mercer]

For the World of Tanks comparison, the Tier I will NEVER see a tier X unless it's brought along in a high tier platoon. Which is just as well because the Tier I will not be able to damage the tier X.

Now, the WSP-1 (Note the lack of A) is able to damage Atlases and even Direwolves despite being made 5-600 years before either one of them. Battletech is a very different game than real life.

[Glythe]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Under my understanding of WoT (Which I didn't play much), Lights physically can't damage Heavies and Super Heavies. Here, weapons are weapons. If you have the tonnage/slots to mount it, you can shoot it and it acts the same.

Actually in WoT it is more correct to say lights cant' damage heavies except from the rear/side and can't damage super heavies (reliably) without shooting them with premium ammunition in the side/rear.

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

If, given flat terrain, non-supported, a fresh Jenner runs into a fresh Atlas, both with equal pilots, and the Jenner has a respectable chance of killing the Atlas, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the game.

Why do you say that? An atlas walking alone out in an open field deserves to die to a Jenner; sure it might take a while and he will take some hits but the Jenner is likely to bring down the bigger mech as the terrain vastly favors him. Taking the WoT mentality to MWO I expect to see a lot of Atlas pilots backing up against rock formations as it is an ironclad way to make sure you can't be flanked. It's the next best thing to actually having a lance mate covering your back.

[Tank]

DreadDjinn, on 25 June 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

The thing that hasn't changed about lights and heavies, is this:

An alpha-strike of an assault mech can one-shot some lights. It only takes one lucky shot. The same cannot be said of a light on assault attack.

Maneuverability is supposed to mitigate the chances of this happening, but there is a limit to this.

Imagine two skilled pilots with nearly flawless gunnery skills. Maneuverability becomes a moot point the higher you go up the gunnery skill range. So it behooves the best gunners to always choose the heaviest platform. There's limits to how good of an engine a light mech can have. Can you ever make an engine good enough to give the light enough speed to evade a crack marksman?

I've never seen anything do better than 200kph. If there's an assault pilot that can hit targets at that speed and at long range, it'll be like lemmings to the slaughter.

I think in this case equipment like targeting systems or jamming and cloaking devices will determine who will have better odds.

[Glythe]

Let's not forget that little mechs can still be annoying little ********! If you are short and fast you can quickly peek over a rise and shoot a heavy that is looking at someone else. It might take a while but after several volleys he will feel those hits.

The trick to playing a light is to give hits without taking hits and to provide a valuable information role for your team. If you want to kill assaults then you should probably try piloting an assault yourself or perhaps a heavy mech.

[Project_Mercy]

Glythe, on 25 June 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Why do you say that? An atlas walking alone out in an open field deserves to die to a Jenner;

Why would you ever get in an Atlas, if you can just circle around the Atlas with a light and kill him with some certainty.

And don't come back with the "Well, he can also get some more Atlases to stand with him". Well, sure, and you can get more Jenners. At a certain point, you end up with a giant pile of scared Assaults huddling in a wagon circle hoping the mean nasty lights don't come regulate on them.

The game will turn into LRM Boats (generally pop-tarting), and knife-fighting fast attack (lights/mediums). This has already happened in various MW leagues where artificial restrictions of changes (like armor scaling and speed bonuses) went into effect.

This is a multiplayer game. Everyone wants to be "the greatest pilot ever". "I should be able to take my Jenner and run rings around everyone and show off my crazy Max Sterling-esque stunts." But it's just not balanced, and it doesn't make for a good game.

[Noth]

Glythe, on 25 June 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Let's not forget that little mechs can still be annoying little ********! If you are short and fast you can quickly peek over a rise and shoot a heavy that is looking at someone else. It might take a while but after several volleys he will feel those hits.

This was basically the Tank destroyer strategy for the US. Pop out, fire, hide, pop out fire hide. It was surprisingly effective agains the heavier gunned, and heavier armored German tanks.

[Waverider]

Let me try with an example different from WOT. I drew it as I understand the team play with Mech. Of course that customization can make Mechs play multiple "classes". And there is no medic.

Edited by Waverider, 25 June 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[light487]

Basically if you had several lights left in the match and one big mech on the enemy team, it could realistically be possible for either side to win.. that's what I've always loved about the BT franchise.. it's not just what you've got but how you use it...

[Koenig]

Woodstock, on 25 June 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

This is not new.

Apparently this is not mechwarrior or battletech either.

[Chiyeko Kuramochi]

light487, on 25 June 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Basically if you had several lights left in the match and one big mech on the enemy team, it could realistically be possible for either side to win.. that's what I've always loved about the BT franchise.. it's not just what you've got but how you use it...

send 2 to harass the remaining big guy and the rest take the base, should be easy enough for the lights to win, numbers matter

[light487]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Why would you ever get in an Atlas, if you can just circle around the Atlas with a light and kill him with some certainty.

And don't come back with the "Well, he can also get some more Atlases to stand with him". Well, sure, and you can get more Jenners. At a certain point, you end up with a giant pile of scared Assaults huddling in a wagon circle hoping the mean nasty lights don't come regulate on them.

The game will turn into LRM Boats (generally pop-tarting), and knife-fighting fast attack (lights/mediums). This has already happened in various MW leagues where artificial restrictions of changes (like armor scaling and speed bonuses) went into effect.

This is a multiplayer game. Everyone wants to be "the greatest pilot ever". "I should be able to take my Jenner and run rings around everyone and show off my crazy Max Sterling-esque stunts." But it's just not balanced, and it doesn't make for a good game.

The point is though that if a Light mech pilot could somehow pull off running circles around an Assault mech pilot WITHOUT being hit more than once or twice, then they could conceivably whittle down the defenses of the Assault mech.. it wouldn't be a piece of cake to do.. they still only have a small amount of firepower..

If the Assault mech pilot is a noob and the Light mech pilot is a veteran.. it's entirely possible and realistic. Medium Laser = Medium Laser.. but they just have to do it without being hit..... and it wouldn't take much to knock out the Light mech's legs..

[Holski77]

Tyra, on 25 June 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

From Ask the Devs 8



ETA: I know this is not new, I've been saying it for months myself. But a lot people keep asking and comparing to WoT that the devs had to answer it again in the latest ask the devs thread. I thought I'd paint a big flashing sign for the unobservant.

I don't know why you are implying lighter tanks are inferior in WOT.
I once took down two hellcats and a ARL in mt BT-2.
I ran out of ammo but I did it!

[Grimarch]

Quite a simple one, you do not have "bounces" your armour is just more hit points, your internal structure is just hit points, Assault mech have much more than lights but thats it.

[mrcarlton]

Its never going to be a fair fight, if the assault is alone, in the open, and at close range, the light could take him. But if anyone else is around, the light will be getting demolished fast. Armor will be the deciding factor, lights just can't take hits as good as the heavies or assaults, the threshold for mistakes is going to be so much less forgiving.

Under the hands of a skilled player a light can chip damage down an assault but the light isn't always going to be at knife-fight range and a Gauss has some nasty hitting power at a distance. And excuse me if i'm going to try to flee from an atlas in my jenner, rather than try to fight it. But that being said, this is mechwarrior, so legging? Could make a light mech 250% more useless with the atlas walking circles around you. And because of weaker armor, i could imagine a ac20 blowing a light's legs clean off or at least knocking it over.

Holski77, on 25 June 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I don't know why you are implying lighter tanks are inferior in WOT.
I once took down two hellcats and a ARL in mt BT-2.
I ran out of ammo but I did it!

^ also i call BS, you can't pene the rear armor with anything the bt-2 has, you at best kill stole from arty or the 2-5 other tanks around you.

[SteelJaws]

It all comes down to skill, yes for a Light/Medium to take down an Atlas the pilot will need to be damn good. Does he need to be cherry picking, not neccesarily. When we played MPBT there were people that could take out an Atlas with a Jenner, was it easy or quick, no.

Also, this is Role Warfare. Know your role and do it well, and you will win. Is a Jenner ment to go toe-to-toe with an Atlas, no, but can a Jenner take one out, yes.

[Thrael]

Why everyone so concerned about taking down atlas with light mechs??? Damn they have different place on battlefield.
Scouting, and no combat. they work for team. Most likely when focused they will go down in 10 seconds. Experienced players know how to shoot fast mechs.
I'm more concerned about place of medium mechs in game. They have lower fire power and lower armor comparing to assaults.