144 replies to this topic

[Coolant]

PANZERBUNNY, on 25 June 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

One would think that scouts playing their role are being fairly aggressive in spotting targets and harassing.

Many of the lighter mechs are likely mashed metal by the time their heavier opponents are running out of ammo.

People like to compare their odds against heavier opponents as if their scout mech is completely unscathed with full ammo. Is that REALLY a likely comparison for the battlefield and your odds 1V1 against behemoths?

You take leg damage, you aren't making attack runs to attract attention.

You take a few incoming shots getting behind enemy lines and you are playing for time before you get tagged and ripped apart, hoping you have back up that can take the heat off of you.

Playing against PUGS is one thing, but attempting to be an ace scout pilot attacking the backs of larger mechs gets harder when they have people looking out for you and chasing you down, stepping on you with glee.

People who rejoice in actually downing larger mechs with a light or medium are usually cherry picking holed mechs, teaming up, rarely whittling them down on their own.

It happens, but not often.

agree...seems like lots of posts how lights because of their speed will have enough advantage to regularly take down assaults. Certainly if an assault is found out by it's lonesome and a lance of lights swarms it (I think of Replicators from Stargate at this point). But it is no certainty despite speed of a light to take down an assault if the assault pilot has any skill. Just one hit from an alpha could cause the light to lose most of it's weapons, get legged, or sent sprawling (at which point death will ensue). I'm glad all mechs will be useful and I plan on trying them all, but it's weird cause it just seems like the majority of posts in a thread like this is that the goal is to personally take down an assault. It will happen, and will prolly happen to me (oh the shame ), but it shouldn't happen regularly unless there was teamwork involved...

Edited by Coolant, 25 June 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

A few things stick out to me:

• The devs have stated that they aren't aiming for perfect 1v1 balance
  
• The devs have stated that they would like people to start out in assault 'mechs, as heavy armor is "forgiving" of piloting mistakes
  
• The Jenner was extremely popular in playtesting by devs and F&F

It occurs to me that while assault class 'mechs have a significant advantage in raw firepower and durability, as a pilot there's something of a skil cap to how far you can push the chassis. While a smart/experienced pilot will be able to compensate somewhat for poor speed and maneuverability when dealing with more agile opponents, and will try to stay in positions where they have support available, ultimately a lot of their play has to be conservative, using good situational awareness and knowledge of the handling of that chassis to avoid being put in a bad situation. By contrast, the light 'mech really gives a lot for a skilled pilot to play with, but some caution has to be exercised since no amount of skill can completely make up for the relative lack of armor and raw firepower - the light 'mech pilot has to temper their aggression, while trying to create or exploit vulnerable situations. I think that's going to be one of the key attributes of the light/medium chassis, the ability to dictate (and rapidly respond to) the tone of rapidly changing combat situations.

[Holski77]

mrcarlton, on 25 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Its never going to be a fair fight, if the assault is alone, in the open, and at close range, the light could take him. But if anyone else is around, the light will be getting demolished fast. Armor will be the deciding factor, lights just can't take hits as good as the heavies or assaults, the threshold for mistakes is going to be so much less forgiving.

Under the hands of a skilled player a light can chip damage down an assault but the light isn't always going to be at knife-fight range and a Gauss has some nasty hitting power at a distance. And excuse me if i'm going to try to flee from an atlas in my jenner, rather than try to fight it. But that being said, this is mechwarrior, so legging? Could make a light mech 250% more useless with the atlas walking circles around you. And because of weaker armor, i could imagine a ac20 blowing a light's legs clean off or at least knocking it over.



^ also i call BS, you can't pene the rear armor with anything the bt-2 has, you at best kill stole from arty or the 2-5 other tanks around you.

Actually I took them down myself! Hellcats have really bad hull armor and turret speed. I circled them to death
I got the ARL because he wasn't paying attention to me. He was firing at my friends capping his base.

I a lot of fun stuff can happen in company battles!

Edited by Holski77, 25 June 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[EchoMike]

Jonneh, on 25 June 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

To temper this with actual logic:

It'll still require you to play to your strengths. A Jenner isn't going to go toe-to-toe with an assualt/heavy and win. You'll need to be flanking, hitting weak spots. Harassing and moving off at speed before they can hit any heavy return fire.

The point is, you *can* hurt them. Which is a big plus over the way Light tanks work in WoT.

I played many, many hours of WoT. And this is exactly why I will be uninstalling it if MWO turns out to be as it's been advertised. Light tanks have a very limited role on the battlefield.

The template of MWO is damn similar to WOT. The actual battle mechanics may differ however, they both utilize research tech trees, and use a currency and XP reward system...it's justifiable to compare the two F2P platforms.

[Gravaar]

I wonder if a heavy/assault could use the DoT of the lasers to stop a light from doing the circle of death,
Just fire in front of the light and let it run into the beams of the lasers ,THEN track it
Be like how machine gunners kill moving targets

[Akaryu]

no really!? ..........

[ragnarawk]

in the end a light mech can buzz around a assault and try and take it out all they want. if they do that heck ya its leaving my fire support mechs alone and realy for the most part not hurting me that much. once ive been anoyed by the little ****** long enuff ill line my ac20 up on the poor little ****** and put a shell that weighs as much as a volkswagon threw his center torso and probably cripple him if not detonate his engine. im all fine with people wanting to pilot light mechs and the skill it takes to drive them but takeing a light vs a assault and saying its a done deal that the atlas is going to loose is like saying the best knife fighter in the world is going to win vs a barret .50 300m down range just because the knife fighters "scrappy".
my 2 cents worth

[xNightAngelx]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

In every other MW/BT game for the past 20 years I have ever seen including TT, the light never wins, ever. The role of the light is not to kill assault mechs. It is absurd to think otherwise. The light has speed and nothing else at that point. Even if he gets behind the Atlas, he better get a lucky shot the first time because he will not get a second. There is no reasonable scenario where a jenner beats an atlas.

In the TT with a faster mech with jump jets it's possible to stay behind a heavy unit and avoid many if not all of the other mechs wepons. The best way to combat that tactic was to place your back aginst a wall. Though if you miss placed your mech also you could also be taken out by DFA. Alot of what could happened was based on the skill of the player.

[Dogbreed]

Can an Atlas kill a Jenner, you bet, Can a Jenner kill an Atlas, its possible. alot of factor apply either way. I like lights and mediums so that is what i will mainly play. If i get a chance to shoot an Altas i will take it, will i go lookings to brawl with the Atlas, no that is not my job.If all that is left is me and an Atlas, then i will go for it and play to my strengths' and the Atlas's weakness. Yes i can do it and have, but the Atlas only needs to get lucky once or twice (ie hit the faster light) and i need to get into the back a couple of times or crit a leg. Now this is not TT, but i have been hit in the head with an crit and taken on the first turn.

[Glythe]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Why would you ever get in an Atlas, if you can just circle around the Atlas with a light and kill him with some certainty.

And don't come back with the "Well, he can also get some more Atlases to stand with him". Well, sure, and you can get more Jenners. At a certain point, you end up with a giant pile of scared Assaults huddling in a wagon circle hoping the mean nasty lights don't come regulate on them.

Actually this is an interesting point you bring up. A scout can circle strafe an assault but two assaults cannot be circle strafed by two scouts (unless the assaults are dumb or already severely crippled). A scout trying to circle two heavies will end up dead in about 10 seconds. After one dies the other will surely follow.

As others have mentioned the difference in armor is staggering. I don't know how much armor you can put on a Jenner but skunkworks says you can theoretically have 7.5 (every ton is multiplied by 16 for a total of 120 armor points) but an Atlas can have 19.5 tons which works out to 307 armor points. Now then let's talk about what happens if you do that to a scout.... you're gonna lose engine speed and you're gonna lose some weapons or heat sinks. Meanwhile let's remember the Atlas is built on the premise you will use all 19.5 tons of armor and STILL having plenty of room for weapons.

Why play an Atlas? Because you are armed to the teeth and nothing in the game comes close to having the same level of protection as you can be besides another Atlas. If you play WoT you know that a very fast medium tier 8 can kill a slow tier 10 heavy in a wide open field and it is the SAME exact principle. The health/armor and weapon values are different but the principle is the same that an extremely mobile opponent ambushing you from behind will really mess you up if he does not kill you. If you play WoT you also know that nothing short of another super heavy can stand toe to toe with you (read as assault for this game). With good teamwork and good positioning you will NOT be able to be picked apart by a scout. As I said on other posts where this keeps coming up.... there is nothing that says the Atlas will be prohibited from using TAG (laser designators), Narc beacons (homing beacon for allied missiles), and other scout equipment.

An Atlas exists in this game for the same reason the super heavy tier 10 tanks exist in world of tanks.... they are massive firepower platforms that operate on the principle of area denial. Do they have weaknesses? Of course they do or else the game is broken and everyone is driving an Assault vehicle after the first week. That would ruin the game. The Atlas is strong but not invincible..... clever piloting and good pilot modules will determine the good Assaults from the bad.

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

The game will turn into LRM Boats (generally pop-tarting), and knife-fighting fast attack (lights/mediums). This has already happened in various MW leagues where artificial restrictions of changes (like armor scaling and speed bonuses) went into effect.

I find it funny you mention the LRM boat premise as the devs actually talked about that weapon having a minimum range (most of the weapons in the game have minimum ranges.... where the damage is reduced prior to that range) because LRMs fired at too close a range will bounce harmlessly off your enemy. Know what else happens to missile boats when they get shot? Their ammunition (which assuming by your premise is ALL OVER THE PLACE) can explode in this game! Unless you are playing with a very good team and you won't ever need weapons besides your missiles (not likely) then you will either run out of ammunition or you'll be defenseless against someone who is faster than you who can hang out in your weapons dead zones. There is likely to be a big gap between lrm & srm range as we know LRM wont work unless you are 660+ meters away; let's also remember that srm do NOT track the target as they are a dumbfire weapon! For that you either need the Artemis system which might not make it on launch or the streak launcher which fires a massively smaller number of missiles.

The bottom line is that every class MUST be able to defeat every other class... or there is no balance and the game is pointless. I'm sure some Jenners will score an Atlas solo kill but it won't be easy and it won't happen very often. But I expect a LOT of Jenners to perform devastating hit and run attacks on assaults that will cause significant damage.

Edited by Glythe, 25 June 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[Voyager I]

Steamroller Stig, on 25 June 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

considering the bulk of the atlases weapons are on it's torso which turns rather slow a jenner could run circles around an atlas. The only way I can see an atlas beating a good Jenner pilot out in the open one one is if the atlas pilot is just good or lucky enough to land a CT shot on a speeding Jenner.

Bad players may gravitate towards the biggest chassis. That doesn't mean that picking an Assault mech makes you bad. A speeding Jenner may be harder to hit than a 100 tonner, but that does not mean a good Atlas pilot won't be able to do it reliably, especially since one good hit is likely all he'll take.

You're assuming that getting a shot at a circle-strafing light will be impossible, rather than just challenging. A decent pilot can handle challenging (pro tip: pivot the other direction).

Steamroller Stig, on 25 June 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

well generally those who give an active defensive trait such as speed for passive defensive trait such as armor do so because they're not as skilled pilots. whether it be a shooter, tank game, flight game, space game, or mech game. generally the more skilled players prefer the faster vehicles, classes, or ships.

That's a very broad generalization to make without evidence, and it also doesn't fully apply in this case, because in general, Light Mechs aren't glass cannons. They can't carry big enough weapons to be cannons. Instead, they're just glass.

Let me use TF2 as an example. You're trying to equate a Jenner to something like the Scout; fast, fragile, and unforgiving for new players, but brutally dangerous in expert hands. Part of what made this true was that the Scout could kill any other class in the game just as fast as the other classes could kill them (which is to say, two good shots at close range will do in anything that isn't a Heavy). With four Medium Lasers and an SRM-4, a skilled Jenner might be able to threaten larger enemies that aren't meant to deal with close up threats, like a Catapult, but their firepower does not at all rival that of any proper brawler that hits 50 tons.

Elkarlo, on 25 June 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

What do we already know about the game:

• It will be 12vs12
  
• Normaly an As-7d will concentrate on the med heavy and Assault Mechs.
  
• Together with the Stalker he will be the slowest of all Mechs in Game.
  
• He won't have his Backlasers.
  
• The Terrain WON'T BE OPEN, the Developers made it in several points very clear that the Maps will be with lots of Obstacles to hide Mechs behind.

So the Atlas will mostly be in the Back of his Force, and a very fast agil Mechs like the Jenner is able to pass around them and go hunting Catapults, or distract Assault mechs.

Hunting Catapults, yes. Not the Atlas, because the Atlas doesn't belong in back. His armament is primarily designed for close range combat, which means a team based around an Atlas will have their fights where he is.

Quote

He is able to destroy an Atlas or Stalker if they ignore him, on the other Side when they hunt him, they won't support their Team.
The Jenner got Jumpjets to get him out of if it gets hot, and he got enough Firepower to be a serious threat.
So he is a very good Strategic Weapon.

The Jenner has a fraction of the firepower that the Atlas has. He is not a significant threat to an Assault mech, and in the situation of a team battle, the job of running off the enemy flankers will belong to his allied lights and mediums.

[Calisrue]

It will be interesting what effect lasers being damage over time instead of burst has on the running circle fight. It'll be awfully hard to keep lasers on target of one part of a jenner for 2seconds, that being said if you lead the jenner as it moves you are almost gauranteed to hit it with some of the laser damage over time just sweeping it over them

[Glythe]

Calisrue, on 25 June 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

It will be interesting what effect lasers being damage over time instead of burst has on the running circle fight. It'll be awfully hard to keep lasers on target of one part of a jenner for 2seconds, that being said if you lead the jenner as it moves you are almost gauranteed to hit it with some of the laser damage over time just sweeping it over them

You've hit the nail on the head with the last bit there as 4-5 partial hits will probably be enough to make the scout rethink engaging a mech 3x his weight class. And if the target being circled has smart missile systems the little guy is in for a HUGE surprise.

After about a year no one drives a heavy tank out in the open in WoT anymore (even in artillery free games) and you'll eventually see the same behavior with assaults in MWO. They will always remain close to at least one boundary so they physically cannot be circled to death.

Edited by Glythe, 25 June 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[DarkElf]

If there's no restriction about weight, I predict this game will be similar to WoT clan war, 8 assault mech, 3 long range mech catapult etc, 1 light or speedy medium for scout.

In defense of WoT, they have more realistic damage system compare to MWO, machine gun will never deal damage to armor.

[trycksh0t]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

In every other MW/BT game for the past 20 years I have ever seen including TT, the light never wins, ever. The role of the light is not to kill assault mechs. It is absurd to think otherwise. The light has speed and nothing else at that point. Even if he gets behind the Atlas, he better get a lucky shot the first time because he will not get a second. There is no reasonable scenario where a jenner beats an atlas.

Previous MW titles have never allowed for speed and manueverability to become a factor, bigger was always better. As for TT...the only way I can see that is if someone is REALLY bad. I mean notoriously bad. If you can get a Light 'Mech behind an Assault in TT and lose, that is either a terrible initiative roll or sheer stupidity. I always bring fast lights for the sole purpose of hunting Heavies and Assaults.

ragnarawk, on 25 June 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

in the end a light mech can buzz around a assault and try and take it out all they want. if they do that heck ya its leaving my fire support mechs alone and realy for the most part not hurting me that much. once ive been anoyed by the little ****** long enuff ill line my ac20 up on the poor little ****** and put a shell that weighs as much as a volkswagon threw his center torso and probably cripple him if not detonate his engine. im all fine with people wanting to pilot light mechs and the skill it takes to drive them but takeing a light vs a assault and saying its a done deal that the atlas is going to loose is like saying the best knife fighter in the world is going to win vs a barret .50 300m down range just because the knife fighters "scrappy".
my 2 cents worth

How are they not hurting you that much? A single alpha from a Jenner is enough total damage to take out all of the rear armor from an Atlas. You ignore that Light 'Mech for more than 10-15 seconds and you're toast. As soon as a half-awake pilot in a faster, more maneuverable 'Mech is in your rear arc, it is a done deal, the only way you're getting rid of him is if you've got a friend to swat him for you, because that AC/20 can't shoot backwards, and you aren't agile enough to keep up with a circling Light (Unless it's an Urbanmech).

[xNightAngelx]

DarkElf, on 25 June 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

If there's no restriction about weight, I predict this game will be similar to WoT clan war, 8 assault mech, 3 long range mech catapult etc, 1 light or speedy medium for scout.

In defense of WoT, they have more realistic damage system compare to MWO, machine gun will never deal damage to armor.

you have to kee in mind a machine gun on a mech is alot bigger than a normal machine gun, the huge size of the rounds is why it's able to do damage.

[Akaryu]

assault mech players seem to think its easy hitting a target with superior mobility and is a small target where as you are a lumbering goliath that hitting something vital on you for a light mech is about as easy as pointing to the ocean on a map of the world. the only light mech pilots that get hit by assault mech weapons are bad light mech pilots that cant hit the legs on an atlas and think strafing is the only tactic when fighting.

[zax]

Even against rear armor, it will likely take 2+ alpha strikes for a light mech to breach the armor of an assault. I'm not quite sure what kind of drooling, mouth-breathing morons some of you guys have played against in previous MW games, but it is not easy to get into the rear arc of a pilot who has half a brain.

Light mechs only have a chance against assaults when they get extremely close and can circle close enough to stay outside of the firing arc of the assault. It's possible, but there are a few factors that play against the light mech. First, it's incredibly difficult to get that close in the first place to a skilled player. Second, even after getting that close the light mech has to stay outside of the firing arc of the assault at all times, as a single alpha will instantly kill them. Third, all this time the assault player will be attempting to get the light inside their firing arc by backing up, changing turning directions and using the surrounding environment to stop the circling.

I played a lot of every MW game including MW4, the game that gave lights the MOST survivability, and the simple fact of the matter is that once your opponent passes a certain skill threshold, it is no longer worth even attempting to approach them with a light mech. You avoid them like the plague while picking on their less skilled teammates, because coming within 500 yards of them means instant death.

Lastly, anybody referring to anything that is possible in the TT game really needs to stop. This is a real-time game, and while turn-based rules and randomized aiming/luck may allow for a light to kill an assault, in a real-time MW game it does not happen without a vast skill imbalance between two players.

[IronEricP]

As a long time player of Battletech and the Mechwarrior series, I already knew this. Its one thing I like about this game.

A commando might not be able to take an awesome head on, but if it spots for LRM units then follows up with an SRM barrage of its own, thats gonna hurt. With no scout, that team would have to risk a direct engagement where heavier, slower units are more likely to take multiple hits from the same awesome.

What will set THIS iteration apart from the other MW titles will be the modules and roles, and proper use of them. If they are implemented right, along with the information warfare mechanics, a scout showing up is going to mean a lot more than dealing with a few small weapons.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

This is basically a stalemated argument. The big guy won't be able to hit the little guy and it'll take far too long for the little guy to take down the big guy. Either team mates will show up to help one of these people or the clock will simply run out... But really it's going to come down to skill. The big slow guy will have to struggle to aim on a very small very fast target while the little guy has to be good at strafing, piloting, and firing while moving very quickly.

Edited by Bluten, 25 June 2012 - 05:36 PM.