154 replies to this topic

[UrsusMorologus]

Quote

Lets be honest about the PPC

I think its fine right now, except for the min range on the [regular] PPC which was poor mechanic

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 12 November 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[QuantumButler]

UrsusMorologus, on 12 November 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

Okay, I honestly think its fine right now

I think it's ghost heat multiplier should be zero, but I think ghost heat is dumb and should go away entirely, so...

[RangerGee412]

PPCs are fine, they were fine before they made them a bit faster last patch. They are useful for hitting h eavys and assaults at range to soften them up, not very good at hitting lights or anything fast at range. Months ago it was just way to easy to hit everything at range so everyone used them because it outclassed every other energy weapon by far.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

I have no issues, what so ever, getting these weapons to work.

[Captain Stiffy]

I really believe that some people's issues with laser accuracy stems from a lack of using arm lock with a toggle key.

If you are running around constantly arms unlocked your accuracy with lasers is going to be insufficient. Period.

[Kain Demos]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 November 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

I really believe that some people's issues with laser accuracy stems from a lack of using arm lock with a toggle key.

If you are running around constantly arms unlocked your accuracy with lasers is going to be insufficient. Period.

This would describe most people I've spectated. I see them alpha with all lasers and when they move the reticle to track the 'mech their arms move but their torso lasers don't and they only hit with 1/2 lasers. I don't alpha with a laser vomit build unless shift key is depressed, period.

[Felio]

QuantumButler, on 12 November 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

This is true.

The default ppc speed is pretty laughabley slow, they're basically energy cannonballs.

I prefer hadouken.

[Graugger]

I do just fine with my Awes-Banshee, its like having 2 AC/20s with nearly a kilometer maximum range. Not to mention no issue with ammo consumption. And I can hit the same targets at that range that I could hit with an AC/20 at 270 meters (which can include those little lights).

[Yosharian]

There is basically no reason to use the PPC. It's too hot and too slow. If you want ranged combat, lasers and/or gauss are/is better. If you want poke alpha, ballistics or pulse lasers are better. For close range combat, PPCs are virtually useless (hard to hit target, quickly overheat), whereas other weapons are still useful in close combat - lasers are hitscan, ballistics generate far less heat. The FLD nature of the PPC is kinda irrelevant unless the target is standing still, because the time it takes to get an accurate lead on your target > the time it takes to hitscan an ER laser.

I say it again, there is simply no reason to use the PPC if you are trying to be competitive.

Edited by Yosharian, 12 November 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Graugger]

Yosharian, on 12 November 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

There is basically no reason to use the PPC. It's too hot and too slow. If you want ranged combat, lasers and/or gauss are/is better. If you want poke alpha, ballistics or pulse lasers are better. For close range combat, PPCs are virtually useless (hard to hit target, quickly overheat), whereas other weapons are still useful in close combat - lasers are hitscan, ballistics generate far less heat. The FLD nature of the PPC is kinda irrelevant unless the target is standing still, because the time it takes to get an accurate lead on your target > the time it takes to hitscan an ER laser.

I say it again, there is simply no reason to use the PPC if you are trying to be competitive.

Don't try telling me I'm using a crap weapon when I have a habit of getting 325 - 830 damage just using my 4 PPCs.
It's not a fraggin brawl weapon it's a support weapon that you use to beat your foes face in while your lancemates are blinding them with their lasers. I've popped Jenners with 2x PPCs at good ranges so don't spew this crap that they're garbage cause you're not used to leading targets.

Spoiler

Or perhaps your aimbot is still calibrated for the old velocities so it misses all the time? Now that would be hilarious.

[Yosharian]

Graugger, on 12 November 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Don't try telling me I'm using a crap weapon when I have a habit of getting 325 - 830 damage just using my 4 PPCs.
It's not a fraggin brawl weapon it's a support weapon that you use to beat your foes face in while your lancemates are blinding them with their lasers. I've popped Jenners with 2x PPCs at good ranges so don't spew this crap that they're garbage cause you're not used to leading targets.

Spoiler

Or perhaps your aimbot is still calibrated for the old velocities so it misses all the time? Now that would be hilarious.

Hmm, 4 PPCs? Awesome? Still, do you really think your 4 PPCs are more effective than 4 ERLL? I'm sorry but I think you are wrong.

The only way PPCs are good is if you get to snap shot them and hide in cover. The low speed of PPCs makes this strategy obsolete, as the time-to-calculate-lead is too long. You might as well hitscan a laser during this time - it takes the same amount of time, produces less heat, costs less tonnage, is more useful in close combat, etc etc.

And close up where the time-to-calc-lead is much lower, the heat issue of PPCs becomes overwhelming.

I'm sure the recent speed buff has helped things quite a bit though. They probably aren't as bad as they once were - I still don't think they are better than other weapon systems however.

Edited by Yosharian, 12 November 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

PPCs are good for fast moving mechs. They allow the faster mechs to lead their target and pop off a shot without exposing themselves too long

However for heavier/slower mechs, you're much better off using lasers...especially LPL.

Personally, I think PPCs are way too damn hot and I avoid them altogether.

[Mothykins]

PPCs are a bit better, but still.

Same tonnage as LPL, More slots, worse overall.

Lets lay down the stats!

PPC:

• 2.50 DPS
  
• 1.00 DPH
  
• 0.36 DPS/T
  
• 2.50 HPS
  
• Range: 90 - 540

ERPPC

• 2.50 DPS
  
• 0.67 DPH
  
• 0.36 DPS/T
  
• 3.75 HPS
  
• Range: 810

Large Pulse Laser

• 2.81 DPS
  
• 1.57 DPH
  
• 0.40 DPS/T
  
• 1.79 HPS
  
• Range: 365

Lets just quickly compare the HPS of ERLL and LL, just for a baseline of what heat increase we expect for a range increase.

LL

• 1.65 HPS
  
• Range: 450

ERLL

• 1.78 HPS
  
• Range: 675

ERPPC Is insanely hot. 100%, no question. Thats pretty much the same increase of range as between the ERLL and LL, for a much, much more massive heat spike. Combined with low impulse, this isn't even really worth considering. 38 heatsinks 'til it's heat neutral guys! we can totally boat that!

So, PPC vs LPL!

DPS seems fine; the LPL is better, but its way closer range, and has duration. That's good.
Damage per heat is a little off. Thats a 57% increase over the PPC for the LPL. This doesn't seem right.
DPS/T is fair. Not gonna really touch this, it's pretty good.
Heat per second. Yeah, uh... We should probably be seeing a gap of about .20-.50, not a gap of .71, especially not with the PPCs impulse where it is.

And then you compare this to the ERPPC. You can literally fire two LPL for the same heat generation, better DPS and hitscan. It's not worth it.

We don't need to make PPCs the god weapon, but FFS, make them actually sensible to use.

[SkyCake]

if you up speed of ppc's, this game is going straight back to ppc/guass meta... if you want good ppcs, pilot mechs that have the quirks.... pgi is did a good job of nerfing ppcs, then buffing them for certain mechs... this sohould have been the philosophy from the beginning

[Glythe]

Tynan, on 12 November 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

The PPC doesn't suck if it's slower than Gauss, your aim / ability to lead targets sucks.

Looking, PPCs *should* be hard to use because they're PPFLD. Anything that's PPFLD should be harder to use than weapons prone to spread because the payoff for successful execution is so high. You had easymode god-PPCs for months and months, and we don't need any more of that crap.

I was going to think of something to say but there's no need. If you're looking for call of duty skinned robot fps games please go play something else.

[White Bear 84]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 November 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

PPC's are less effective when used on moving targets but I can definitely land those long-range across the map shots on forest colony when mechs are still moving out. It's definitely not impossible and a well placed converged shot using multiple ppc's against a stationary target is crazy deadly.

That's the problem.. ..the situation. PPC's only got nerfed to the ground due to excessive meta use as high alpha, pinpoint damage.. ..should we discuss convergence & pinpoint damage?

_{Not that it would make an ounce of difference....}

Edited by White Bear 84, 12 November 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[Ghogiel]

I wonder. If they removed ghost heat on PPCs would the 4 PPC STK come back? I'm not sure it would..

[SkyCake]

ERPPC maybe needs heat to be 12-13 somewhere in there

[Captain Stiffy]

White Bear 84, on 12 November 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

That's the problem.. ..the situation. PPC's only got nerfed to the ground due to excessive meta use as high alpha, pinpoint damage.. ..should we discuss convergence & pinpoint damage?

_{Not that it would make an ounce of difference....}

It may have been nerfed during the poptart phase but JJ's have since taken care of that. Everything was re-adjusted with the clan patch invalidating any prior nerfs.

[Kiiyor]

Toast001, on 12 November 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

The ppc sucks unless it gets the speed of a guass rifle. It has great range but unless its a stationary mech its not going to hit, so the most effective way play is with a laser instead. With 2 er ppcs on my orion with a 360 engine, its near 50% heat to fire both. I know boating is a issue, but there must be a better deal with it then having such a iconic mechwarrior weapon reduced to such a state.

I just started thinking about this because i bought a warhawk a few days ago. I switched out to large pulse lasers because of one match, this dam stormcrow with no armor and most internal damage, all i needed to do with hit it with 1 or 2 ppcs and it would be down. All i kept thinking durning this was if i used LPL it would have been dead long ago.

And just so you alpha with 4 er ppcs you over heat for about 10 seconds and have orange internal chest, not worth it.

I'm going to weigh in here. The PPC is a very, very 'knife edge' weapon to balance. I remember when the PPC had a 2000m/s speed. IMHO, this was fantastic; It gave the weapon impact, and it was oh-so satisfying to use.

But it was most assuredly OP at this velocity, as it played right into the hands of the tiny shot windows of poptarts, which were a plague on the battlefield at the time.

Even though you barely see poptarts now (which might be an argument for a speed increase) i'd like to point out that I had a 3.5KDR in my Awesome, after 700 or so matches, using just three of them. This dropped significantly after the first big speed cut.

Now, even with quirk increases to PPC velocity on certain mechs, the PPC still feels anemic to me. It's probably because i'll always have the 2000 speed as a point of comparison. What I would love to see (but will likely never happen as the TT purists have aneurysms whenever their nice round numbers move up and down) is a speed increase to 1500-2000m/s, and a damage reduction from 10 to 8, or perhaps some splash damage for the IS PPC similar to it's Clan counterpart.

I'd be more than happy to trade damage for usability.