64 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

IMO Any damage is too much. I dunno why its bad to be heat neutral

[Sovery_Simple]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 November 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

Answering quality with quality.

Fact: Override means removing safety overrides, like the autoshutdown that keeps your reactor from going critical on overheat.

Turning that off? Means even a little beyond, and you removed the safety mechanisms. Means things maybe might go boom.
Shutting down is done to prevent losing containment. Removing those overrides mean you might lose that containment once you push your heat past that 100% mark.


Any clearer, now?

With the simple request that it be a bit more relative to the degree which that containment is being broken. ^.^

Well, that, and taking the -however rare- head component off of the random hit table. Making ammo cook off at a certain threshold would be a nice touch, though I will admit I'm not sure at which point that should occur, and if all locations should suffer the same critical point. (Since your arms are farther from your core than your LT or RT, and CT, of course. Could adjust them at a 5% heat scale? It's a little touch, but offers some benefit to carrying your ammo in a less armored location.)

Bishop, you mess with their reddit very often? Seems they have their ears pressed a little closer there. Out of curiosity.

[R Razor]

Whoops, on 12 November 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

Those two mechs will also easily push themselves past the 40% point, though as another poster mentioned, having the damage be more CT centralized is ideal, but PGI seems to want all internals to be affected. Ideally, it would indeed be focused more on the CT region.

(The "we" was me and mcgral. You, the blessed golden child of the O key, have never been so lucky as to be graced with the divine cockpit explosion.)

No complaints with ammo cooking off, it's a tradeoff to consider. You know those things? Making it so someone can take a good with a bad? The current good of firing 1 laser then getting instant death seems a bit skewed, is all.


Bishop, you know how to read, after that many posts I'd hope that reading comprehension would of caught up to you by now and jammed itself inside your skull.
Firing 1 laser (and a small portion of it going into overheat range, while they had been on chainfire [GASP]) does not equal an alpha strike. Almost sounds like someone was being careful and try to avoid overheating themselves, but happened to slightly go over and oh look, an Mlas worth of damage to the enemy = full component loss. Whoo.

So, before you start making assumptions (which you had to do, because you apparently didn't even read it), try to realize that you're actually ENCOURAGING the alpha striking that you apparently curse so much. Skirt chainfires = death, alpha and quickly shut yourself down after = no real penalty. Gee, wonder which one has greater incentive's.

What you are honestly crying for is a self-destruct button. Push button, get last rites alpha, explode.

Edit: The difference between who lives and who dies isn't how closely they watched their heat, it's who got lucky with the damage rolls.

There is not a mech in the game that will overheat from firing one laser........if you fired so much other junk in your button pressing frenzy that you got hot enough for ONE laser to fry you, that's your lack of ability to manage your heat and has nothing to do with the game.

Call me the golden child or whatever else you want if it makes you feel better, but at least I know how to keep myself from blowing apart because I'm not smart enough to pay attention to my mechs heat. You guys might want to give that a try some time instead of worrying about getting that last shot in.

[Sovery_Simple]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 November 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

IMO Any damage is too much. I dunno why its bad to be heat neutral

It's not bad to be heat neutral, but it's also not uncalled for to have a mechwarrior feature operating the best it could be. People ask for ai vehicles on the field. Is it bad to fight just other mechs? No, but it could be better, and we'd like to see things improve.

R Razor, on 12 November 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

You guys might want to give that a try some time instead of worrying about getting that last shot in.

Actually, getting that last shot in is when you don't worry at all

Also, you saw how some folks chimed in and mentioned they "never mess with the override function", and you can play some games, especially pug games, and probably see it rarely used. Now, would you argue that they're just so goddamn amazing that they never overheat (hahaha, sorry.), or that they can't handle the function in their normal level of play?

I'll lay it out simply: I view the system as a very simple option for trying to "go that extra mile" in a match, by being able to judge that "hey, I think this will make my heat hit exactly 100%, I'm going to try it." If you nail it right, you suffer zero penalties, at all. Zip, Zero, None. Mess up? Well, before you'd take some damage, now you might entirely explode. Is it worth it? Maybe.

Am I going to just puss out and go "oh well I'll take my baddie shutdown because I can't hit a button"? Hell no. We override that **** and we time it right. Can't handle the timing? Well, at least you tried, there's always next time.

(and when we want to, we alpha over and retreat to a safe spot and shutdown to ride the heat out. Risks, after all, do come with their rewards, and dying in the process can be acceptable under certain occasions.)

Edited by Whoops, 12 November 2014 - 08:26 PM.

[R Razor]

Whoops, on 12 November 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

It's not bad to be heat neutral, but it's also not uncalled for to have a mechwarrior feature operating the best it could be. People ask for ai vehicles on the field. Is it bad to fight just other mechs? No, but it could be better, and we'd like to see things improve.




Actually, getting that last shot in is when you don't worry at all

Apparently you do, and then come on here and whine about what happens when you overheat and die.

[SweetJackal]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 November 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

I've used override a handful of times. Only time I have ever popped was by doing it in a Nova Prime. Damage, to best of my knowledge has always been to my CT.

Nope. Overheating damage is random in both value and location. You can hit override and merely get yellow arms or legs or exist over 100% for what feels like forever. You can shut down and have your cockpit explode from the heat.

It's actually a real problem with the heat penalties, being that the punishment is random to such an extreme degree. All the time that Paul and Russ have criticized the heat system desired by some members of the community there is a nice little value in there that has the shutdown threshold not instantly kill you and has a threshold for guaranteed instant death, both being things that MWO lacks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Whoops, on 12 November 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

With the simple request that it be a bit more relative to the degree which that containment is being broken. ^.^

Well, that, and taking the -however rare- head component off of the random hit table. Making ammo cook off at a certain threshold would be a nice touch, though I will admit I'm not sure at which point that should occur, and if all locations should suffer the same critical point. (Since your arms are farther from your core than your LT or RT, and CT, of course. Could adjust them at a 5% heat scale? It's a little touch, but offers some benefit to carrying your ammo in a less armored location.)

Bishop, you mess with their reddit very often? Seems they have their ears pressed a little closer there. Out of curiosity.

Every reddit I get on seems to make MWO Forums seem pleasantly non toxic.

I can't say I agree with removing the head, per se, being that it usually is part of the CT. But it should take damage at a much slower rate, with CT then ST bearing brunt, and weapons, ammo etc in those locations risking cookoff. Probably have to add the legs to that simply because everyone keep sammo there, even though in lore that was pretty rare.

Personally I always felt arm ammo should not even do more than superficial damage if it cooks off anyhow, aside from destroying the arm.

[Krivvan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 November 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

I dunno why its bad to be heat neutral

Because you can think of any time that your heat is at 0% to be wasted time that could have been used cooling heat from firing. It's not efficient to have a heat neutral mech.

[FupDup]

Krivvan, on 12 November 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Because you can think of any time that your heat is at 0% to be wasted time that could have been used cooling heat from firing. It's not efficient to have a heat neutral mech.

Which is exactly why Paul's fear of enabling such builds to exist is so stupid in the first place.

Paul, in ATD #43 said:

...
Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

Yes, he actually believes that. That is why we can't have nice things like external dubs that cool as quickly as internal dubs (b-b-b-b-but muh 3 second Jenner!).

Edited by FupDup, 12 November 2014 - 08:28 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Whoops, on 12 November 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

It's not bad to be heat neutral

Given the devs want no builds to be able to BE heat neutral (see the 2 ac2 K-s builds that needed like 22 Heat sinks to BE neutral and Ghost heat, 6 sec Jenner etc)

[Sovery_Simple]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 November 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Given the devs want no builds to be able to BE heat neutral (see the 2 ac2 K-s builds that needed like 22 Heat sinks to BE neutral and Ghost heat, 6 sec Jenner etc)

I think we can both agree we have.... disagreements, about some of PGI's stances.

FupDup, on 12 November 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Which is exactly why Paul's fear of enabling such builds to exist is so stupid in the first place.


Yes, he actually believes that. That is why we can't have nice things like external dubs that cool as quickly as internal dubs (b-b-b-b-but muh 3 second Jenner!).

Edited by Whoops, 12 November 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SuckyJack, on 12 November 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Nope. Overheating damage is random in both value and location. You can hit override and merely get yellow arms or legs or exist over 100% for what feels like forever. You can shut down and have your cockpit explode from the heat.

It's actually a real problem with the heat penalties, being that the punishment is random to such an extreme degree. All the time that Paul and Russ have criticized the heat system desired by some members of the community there is a nice little value in there that has the shutdown threshold not instantly kill you and has a threshold for guaranteed instant death, both being things that MWO lacks.

"I've used override a handful of times. Only time I have ever popped was by doing it in a Nova Prime. Damage, to best of my knowledge has always been to my CT"

Re-read the quote. At no time do I say damage only happens to CT. I simply stated, of the few times I have encountered it, that seems to be where I took the damage. And never had my head pop.

But then I don't ride Override like a crutch to keep shooting...I simply manage my heat in the first place.

[Sovery_Simple]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 November 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Every reddit I get on seems to make MWO Forums seem pleasantly non toxic.

I can't say I agree with removing the head, per se, being that it usually is part of the CT. But it should take damage at a much slower rate, with CT then ST bearing brunt, and weapons, ammo etc in those locations risking cookoff. Probably have to add the legs to that simply because everyone keep sammo there, even though in lore that was pretty rare.

Personally I always felt arm ammo should not even do more than superficial damage if it cooks off anyhow, aside from destroying the arm.

The arm is probably to keep people from stuffing all of their ammo there, along with the heavier ballistics, then not caring that they lost the ammo because the gun went with it? Is my guess. Legs would have to probably be treated like side torsos. Just below CT in lethality, as carrying ammo in your CT is generally viewed as a poor idea anyways.

Edit: The arm portion also carries more weight when you consider tabletop had mechs that worked just fine with a single ton of ammo. Thus that one leftover slot in an arm? Perfect storage location.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 November 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

"I've used override a handful of times. Only time I have ever popped was by doing it in a Nova Prime. Damage, to best of my knowledge has always been to my CT"

Re-read the quote. At no time do I say damage only happens to CT. I simply stated, of the few times I have encountered it, that seems to be where I took the damage. And never had my head pop.

But then I don't ride Override like a crutch to keep shooting...I simply manage my heat in the first place.

Sorry Bishop, I was referring to R on that portion, since he mentioned that "the vast majority" or somesuch only reported taking CT and ST damage (ignoring the "rear internal damage" because that's literally impossible from overheating, your armor is front and rear, and your internals are omnidirectional.)

If you use it a bit more often, you'll probably see it with some regularity. Try using it when you're about to die for a night and you'll get some painless results.

You two seem to try and paint the picture that people literally run around with a stack of quarters on their O key, running around at 125% heat the entire match.
It's a tool, nothing more. Sometimes it comes in handy, when it will, use it. Otherwise, enjoy your extra screen real estate not being eaten up by a big red sign.

Edited by Whoops, 12 November 2014 - 08:42 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Whoops, on 12 November 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

It's a tool, nothing more. Sometimes it comes in handy, when it will, use it. Otherwise, enjoy your extra screen real estate not being eaten up by a big red sign.

And when the piper comes calling, pay and don't get upset? Because let's be perfectly honest, if it was any less a risk, it WOULD be a constantly abused crutch.

Seems like a fair trade.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 November 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Budor]

I override frequently and just hope its not the head. Its a fun mechanic.

[Sovery_Simple]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 November 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

And when the piper comes calling, pay and don't get upset? Because let's be perfectly honest, if it was any less a risk, it WOULD be a constantly abused crutch.

Seems like a fair trade.

A fair trade is all we're asking for. 3% heat for 100% internals, isn't. Small change, but feel free to crank up CT damage as a result, with a sensible scale. Dip a little over, give a little up. Dip a lot over, well, you got to dip a lot over once at least

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Nothing wrong with the override. Its an act of desperation to maybe get off an extra shot that you shouldn't have.

[Mcgral18]

Budor, on 12 November 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

I override frequently and just hope its not the head. Its a fun mechanic.

If you classify Russian roulette as fun.

A sensible scale would be nice. Or something not binary.

[Bishop Steiner]

Whoops, on 12 November 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

A fair trade is all we're asking for. 3% heat for 100% internals, isn't. Small change, but feel free to crank up CT damage as a result, with a sensible scale. Dip a little over, give a little up. Dip a lot over, well, you got to dip a lot over once at least

The point of override though is just that...you have gone past the safety stops, removed them, and thus, run the risk of very bad things. The trade off is you have the safeties in place, and you shutdown and simply take the core damage from overheating, instead of possibly containment loss.

It's really to me that simple. Risk, reward. Is it worth risking a possible containment loss for overriding? Then roll the dice. You're gonna take the heat damage, regardless. But just remember what override is. You are intentionally removing all safety overrides and protocols for that shot. Should not be something you do lightly.

The alpha warriors already pay their due in that they take the core damage and shut down, which against good players = death.

[Sovery_Simple]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 November 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

The point of override though is just that...you have gone past the safety stops, removed them, and thus, run the risk of very bad things. The trade off is you have the safeties in place, and you shutdown and simply take the core damage from overheating, instead of possibly containment loss.

It's really to me that simple. Risk, reward. Is it worth risking a possible containment loss for overriding? Then roll the dice. You're gonna take the heat damage, regardless. But just remember what override is. You are intentionally removing all safety overrides and protocols for that shot. Should not be something you do lightly.

The alpha warriors already pay their due in that they take the core damage and shut down, which against good players = death.

At which point you're reducing it to a self destruct button in everything but name. An RNG self destruct button, at that.
The current result is "lol maybe I live, maybe I die"
I'm (/we're) asking for "Let it be something we can calculate."

Edit: going to get off of here and enjoy some matches before it gets any later tonight, have fun everyone! (and we've got things to a state of civility in the thread, let's keep it there )

Edited by Whoops, 12 November 2014 - 09:23 PM.