181 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

>SLOW TTK IS A *CAUSE* OF STAGNANT GAMEPLAY, NOT A SOLUTION

sorry for necroposting but i wish more people understood it

[Jaeger Gonzo]

To OP.
Go play CS, CoD or something...

Actually we know that is exactly opposite.

Fast TTK killed all tactics except ball.
In Stock Mode, slow TTK proves that is giving more tactical options.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 21 July 2015 - 12:35 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

nope, it's slow ttk which forces people to focus fire to drop enemy fast can completely kill lance combat etc stuff

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Coolant, on 14 November 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

according to Russ, TTK is only 15 seconds less...i personally don't even notice any change...

Russ need to eat hes own tail.

Hes was mentioning Match Time, not TTK.
Match time somehow stayed same, as players now are more afraid and camp-hide more, but actual fight time is shorter then ever.
Try to think logically for a moment.
If you rise DPS across the board by 60%, what do you think is going to happen with TTK?

[Matthew Ace]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 21 July 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

To OP.
Go play CS, CoD or something...

Actually we know that is exactly opposite.

Fast TTK killed all tactics except ball.
In Stock Mode, slow TTK proves that is giving more tactical options.

On the contrary, wouldn't slower TTK instead promotes deathballing? As TTK goes up, the difference one player is capable of making decreases. However, the need for teamwork/focus fire increases. We observed the same incident (that of each individual player having less control on the outcome of the match) when MWO moved from 8v8 to 12v12.

Edit: Now that I think about it, what I said above is erroneous in its own way... it's too generalised to state whether TTK needs to go up or down. In some areas, it would make absolute sense to say TTK is too low, such as Assaults designed to withstand more fire. Basically, we should talk about how TTK should go up and down and whether that change would impact the game favourably.

Take for instance, armor goes up from double TT to triple TT; yes TTK goes up, but it may become more stale because the weapons with the largest PPFLD lose their "fear factor".

It's more accurate to say the game needs an adjustment of TTK through increase in tactical depth.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 21 July 2015 - 01:23 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

You probably don`t remember how was with slower TTK.
Ball was always an option, but not the only one like it is now.

[Xetelian]

The longer the combat the better...

Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't get why there were so many pieces to a mech to begin with...

[Lily from animove]

EvilCow, on 13 November 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

I agree, increasing the TTK too much would just make the game too forgiving and ultimately dumb.

The whole point of flanking or ambush an opponent is to be able to do significant damage gaining a small time window before the reaction of the target. If the TTK is too high then there is no point in doing anything but a blob focusing fire.

The only thing that should probably be reconsidered are legs, currently it is way to easy to leg a mech, especially in light and medium classes.

No, sry, guys but this is not your regular CoD shooter. flanking is to deal unseen damage, to distract and/or retreat helping the mainline to get some advtantage in the frontline to frontline batlles in reverse. Either by havign firepower advantage by those distracted, or by having open flanks and backs by thse trying to chase the flanking mech. But flanking is hardly to finish off entire mechs. Flanking also is for spotting providing locations to your team, an areal denial for the opponents.

if you decrease TTK even more tactics hardly will matter anymore, because then its more or less: killing on sight. which will just cause bad defensive deathballing. TTK is already rather low in the high elo ranks where people can aim.

[AssaultPig]

gameplay is stagnant because lack of respawn makes most players risk-averse; when the mech you're driving is the only one you have you don't want to lose it two minutes into the match.

This is exacerbated by big long-range alphas. When I know multiple mechs on the enemy team are probably using dual gauss I'm not gonna be to willing to crest a hill where they might be pointed.

[Joseph Mallan]

Flyby215, on 13 November 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

I don't think having a really short TTK so that one can sneak around alone acting all rambo-like one-shotting enemies before they one-shot you like WarThunder or CoD is really what Mechwarrior is about.

Flanking and ambushing still works great as is; ambushing of course can catch support/sniper mechs off guard in the face of a brawler/DW, while flanking allow you to easily target softer parts on an enemy (backside or XL for example).

The longer TTK means that a player can take a few hits, and still be able to respond in time to either reposition or to fight back. Your one life in each match actually has some duration to it (if you're not a locust). Dueling can become pretty intense. Longer TTK means that a player isn't instantly screwed if a dual-guass shot pegs them from across the map.

Could not tell you how frustrating WarThunder is to spend several minutes trying to get my B-17 out to the enemy base just to be one-shotted by some bugger with a cannon when my escorts don't one-shot him first.

You do understand that in MechWarriors of the past TTK was pretty darn short. I remember my daughter and I stomping around in a Dire Wolf carrying 3 Gauss & 2 ERPPC (due to the non locking of Omnis) and killing Heavies with a single Alpha Strike.

Life expectancy of a Mech when engaging another Mech is less than 2 minutes... for an Assault. In 1 on 1 combat with 2 Atlases, the battle is over in 1 minute give or take 20 seconds.

[Kiiyor]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

In order to effectively reduce the enemy team's ability to fight, you need to kill their mechs. Most importantly, you need to kill their mechs as fast as possible in order to minimize damage to your own team as well. For all but the most powerful mechs, 1 v 1 TTK is slow in this game. Slow enough that if one mech is losing a solo fight it can quite easily return to its team before dying. This is why focus fire is of utmost importance.

Similarly, if you attack a mech from an angle it is not currently observing, it almost always gets a chance to return fire. Combine this with relatively long cooldowns compared to other shooters, and the only way to effectively damage an enemy mech without simply trading damage with them is to hug cover obsessively. It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

I disagree.

I've seen hundreds of games in conquest and (new) assault that have resisted the insidious call of blob, and have still been tense, fun games. As someone else pointed out above, a lack of in depth objective based gameplay is probably a large cause.

TTK is already at the point where a single mistake is often fatal. When a heavy mech can take one hit from another mech and be forced to cower for the rest of the match with open internals, it's a decent indicator that something is wrong. When a new player can be shot at by two mechs and die so quickly that there is no chance for them to learn anything other than 'don't get shot?' - something is wrong. When mech survivability is getting closer and closer to that of Hawken, something is wrong.

Back in closed beta, when TTK was far lower, there was a whole lot more maneuvering in battle. Lights and fast mediums often ventured several gridsquares from the main group, and were fine. Now, people huddle in blobs, not because it's the most efficient way to kill, but because there is safety in numbers. If the blob was the most efficient way to kill, matches would be resolved by flat out charges, straight from the get go, instead of the near constant timid peek fests that we have now. Heck, even the herd consciousness of the PUG underhive eventually cottons on to the most effective tactics as they filter down from the group queues.

In MWO, now, a lone mech is a dead mech. Heck, a lone lance is a dead lance.

The magnificent and venerable war machines of the battletech universe are supposed to be awesome machines, some of which have weathered centuries of warfare. If MWO TTK is anything to go by, apparently they never ventured into any open space for more than four seconds.

[Matthew Ace]

AssaultPig, on 21 July 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

This is exacerbated by big long-range alphas. When I know multiple mechs on the enemy team are probably using dual gauss I'm not gonna be to willing to crest a hill where they might be pointed.

Lets take that example for a moment... In this case, it may meant that multiple Dual Gausses does not have a large enough weakness or choice of countermeasures for players to exploit. Gauss individually or in pairs on a single mech, I would even say it could use slightly larger damage at expense of much longer cooldown (but that's my opinion). Yet if employed in multiplez and if players can shoot only one Gauss and no other weapons within a brief window, what happens next? Or what if jump jets are faster anf there are directional jump jets on certain undergunned mechs, you happened to have 1 or 2 of them in your team, and they offer to draw fire for the team?

(Tl;dr : In this scenario, more counters against multiple Gausses or more drawbacks for using Gausses in multiples or with other weapons)

Edited by Matthew Ace, 21 July 2015 - 02:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

TTK is already at the point where a single mistake is often fatal. When a heavy mech can take one hit from another mech and be forced to cower for the rest of the match with open internals, it's a decent indicator that something is wrong.

For the record an Orion has 44 points of Side Torso Front armor (22 on TT). So a Single AC20 shot leaves it with 2 points of armor(10 seconds). To replicate that here requires a 40 point alpha or 2 taps with an AC20 (8 seconds). So a side torso almost stripped in 1 turn of combat either way. Looks like TTK is still about right.

[JernauM]

There are several reasons that may lead to stagnant gameplay in MWO, but TTK is probably not one of them. Stagnant gameplay has more to do with map design, game mode design, and players' tendency to converge on a small set of tactics that work reliably (e.g., occupy the center of Terra Therma, hold the mountain on Alpine Peaks).

[Doman Hugin]

Joe, i thought better of you.

Add the 4 med lasers that hunchback toting the AC20 also carries and re-evaluate that TT comparison.

I don't think the single weapons have ever been an issue in this game.

[Dashen]

we all know the low ttk is actually due to lasers and gausses. why cant we simply ask for that nerf?

[Xetelian]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

For the record an Orion has 44 points of Side Torso Front armor (22 on TT). So a Single AC20 shot leaves it with 2 points of armor(10 seconds). To replicate that here requires a 40 point alpha or 2 taps with an AC20 (8 seconds). So a side torso almost stripped in 1 turn of combat either way. Looks like TTK is still about right.

I don't normally disagree with you but on this I really do.


Perfect convergence of high alphas with a piss poor imitation of heat scale and you think we're sitting pretty? You can barely call this a battletech game let alone a simulation. Its a slower mans FPS that I can play completely stoned or drunk. Though I've had some flukes, inebriation ends most of my CS GO time.

They HAD to double armor.

What benefit is there in running a light? 6-12% of the queue, all the good rewards are related to doing damage. You lose an XL torso to 1-2 alphas of anything let alone another light.

Maybe doubling the armor again would help slow down the massive one sided steamrolling that happens after the first 2-3 guys go down.

Edited by Xetelian, 21 July 2015 - 03:36 AM.

[TheCharlatan]

Xetelian, on 21 July 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:

I don't normally disagree with you but on this I really do.


Perfect convergence of high alphas with a piss poor imitation of heat scale and you think we're sitting pretty? You can barely call this a battletech game let alone a simulation. Its a slower mans FPS that I can play completely stoned or drunk. Though I've had some flukes, inebriation ends most of my CS GO time.

They HAD to double armor.

What benefit is there in running a light? 6-12% of the queue, all the good rewards are related to doing damage. You lose an XL torso to 1-2 alphas of anything let alone another light.

Maybe doubling the armor again would help slow down the massive one sided steamrolling that happens after the first 2-3 guys go down.

Fun fact: i've found extreme survivability in my light mechs since the hsr patch. Since anything seems to either die or take crippling damage from 1-2 alphas, i've found that the best way to survive is become harder to hit, so lights/fast mediums/poptarts is where i'm at.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Maps too small
Maps too cluttered

=limited viable tactics

Bigger maps
Less clutter

=increased viable tactics

[LordBraxton]

Fast TTK has actually made focus fire and formation far less important, as a single mech can just tear another down in seconds. My EXE isn't that heavily armed, but I double tapped a fresh enforcer and killed in in... what is the exact cooldown time for an ERSL with lvl 5 cooldown? Because that was how long he lived. I fired the first shot instantly, and he was dead before the beam duration of the second salvo. Basically 2 second engagement. 'Im having fun..."