179 replies to this topic

[Rando Slim]

HAHA, nice! Speaking of the "devil". Watch out for that guy in an "OP" Firestarter.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 14 November 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Darian DelFord, on 14 November 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but that road goes both ways. Cant tell you how many times I have alpha'ed a DW in the back with 6 ML"s and have it register no damage as a Jenner.

Trust me, you're not "bursting my bubble". I've played for a long time and, yes, I've seen it happen with assaults too. It just happens more frequently with certain light chassis.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Because with speed, and or JJs, the hit reg issues are greatly compounded. You see those bad registries far less the bigger, dumber and slower the mech. Yes, occasionally, I have seen a stationary Assault have the issue, but it's pretty bloody rare compared to the Lights that take a volley that could fell a Heavy, and don't even breach the armor, or exposed internal Lights take an ac20 from my Hunchy and not lose the component.

Mind you, some of this is angle of fire and ghost hit boxes.

Go into Testing Ground, chose the Atlas. Stand directly in front and see how many salvoes it takes to core.

Now stand over on it's flanks with a 50750% angle or so, target the mech, and after the st pops, keep firing and see how many salvos it takes. It ain't just the Centy that seems to get phantom hitbox protection, at times.

You ain't lying. That is, I think, the crux of the issue.

[ALKALIN3]

If I remember correctly, the devs have stated that there is a 50% damage reduction when you shoot through a side torso to the CT that is supposed to be there. Please correct me if I am wrong...wish i could find a post as proof.

[Bishop Steiner]

o0Marduk0o, on 14 November 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

On maps like Alpine you can do nothing for the first half of the match until a brawl starts.


What do you test here? You shoot the side torso and want to see when the center is gone?

After the side is gone. Shots that pass through the hitbox are showing reduced damage.

Will edit and upload video later.

Simple math, shooting CT, dead on: 6x ac20 shots, 4x triple Medium Lasers: Total Damage: 180

Shooting form oblique, through where the ST USED to be (with light damage already showing to CT from transfer) tool 11x ac20 shots and 11x triple MEdium Lasers shots, total damage: 370, or TWICE what it should have.

The Ghost Hitbox is still halving damage at shot going through it, and it should not.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 November 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

After the side is gone. Shots that pass through the hitbox are showing reduced damage.

Yes, this is how it works for every mech and it is working as intended. It is called damage transfer.
A transfer across 1 zone reduces the damage to the adjacent zone to 41-42%.
A transfer across 2 zones reduces the damage to the adjacent zone to 16-17%, in the case leg or arm damage transfered to the center torso.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aodh, on 14 November 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

If I remember correctly, the devs have stated that there is a 50% damage reduction when you shoot through a side torso to the CT that is supposed to be there. Please correct me if I am wrong...wish i could find a post as proof.

o0Marduk0o, on 14 November 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Yes, this is how it works for every mech and it is working as intended. It is called damage transfer.
A transfer across 1 zone reduces the damage to the adjacent zone to 41-42%.
A transfer across 2 zones reduces the damage to the adjacent zone to 16-17%, in the case leg or arm damage transfered to the center torso.

Damage transfer is ONLY supposed to occur on the shot that transfers from one location to the next. After it has been destroyed future shots are NOT supposed to be halved. Because there is nothing there to absorb the shot.

Hence, you shoot a Locust in the arm with the ac20. Locust arm (had) 8 armor, 6 internal stock, for 14 total HP. There is a remaining 6 damage that now transfers to the ST. THAT damage is halved, so the Locust absorbs 3 damage transferred to the ST.

Now, the arm is no longer there, and thus, the next shot hits the ST, directly, with no damage reduction., doing a full 20 damage.

THAT is how Damage Transfer is supposed to work.

If that is how the devs want it to be working, the way you say it, and people are STILL crying about TTK?

Then those players are bads who need to stop staring, period.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 November 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Almond Brown]

Maybe some of the Larger Mechs should start putting some of their Armor back into that rear arc. 2 Points ain't cutting anymore apparently. LOL!

[o0Marduk0o]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Damage transfer is ONLY supposed to occur on the shot that transfers from one location to the next. After it has been destroyed future shots are NOT supposed to be halved. Because there is nothing there to absorb the shot.

Hence, you shoot a Locust in the arm with the ac20. Locust arm (had) 8 armor, 6 internal stock, for 14 total HP. There is a remaining 6 damage that now transfers to the ST. THAT damage is halved, so the Locust absorbs 3 damage transferred to the ST.

Now, the arm is no longer there, and thus, the next shot hits the ST, directly, with no damage reduction., doing a full 20 damage.

THAT is how Damage Transfer is supposed to work.

Your example is right but you are missing the point.

When a component gets destroyed but the hitbox is still there (valid for side torsos, legs and the small part where the arm connects), then damage transfer is going on, when you hit that location.
Guess why Centurions are so tough. The side torsos are quite small and the arm connecting area is almost as big as the side torso from the side, so shots at the side torso might hit the area where the arm was before and get reduced in damage.

Shooting a leg after it got destroyed damages the adjacent side torso. When this side torso is gone, the damage is transferred to the center torso for 16-17% of its initial value.

Otherwise you would just target the side torso to destroy the center torso, when 100% damage is transferred, which would be a huge nerf for all mechs with big side torso.

This is how it works since closed beta and there is no reason to change it.

And it isn't halved, exact test result in a 41-42% reduction.

[Bishop Steiner]

o0Marduk0o, on 14 November 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Your example is right but you are missing the point.

When a component gets destroyed but the hitbox is still there (valid for side torsos, legs and the small part where the arm connects), then damage transfer is going on, when you hit that location.
Guess why Centurions are so tough. The side torsos are quite small and the arm connecting area is almost as big as the side torso from the side, so shots at the side torso might hit the area where the arm was before and get reduced in damage.

Shooting a leg after it got destroyed damages the adjacent side torso. When this side torso is gone, the damage is transferred to the center torso for 16-17% of its initial value.

Otherwise you would just target the side torso to destroy the center torso, when 100% damage is transferred, which would be a huge nerf for all mechs with big side torso.

This is how it works since closed beta and there is no reason to change it.

And it isn't halved, exact test result in a 41-42% reduction.

I am not arguing with you that it is there. It is, on the other hand, somewhat broken. And it shows that anyone crying about TTK is simply bad. Because any shots going into an Atlas except from almost dead center, require nearly 400 damage to kill it.

Thus, if you twist even semi compently, you should be able to soak damage for days.

Yet people are still crying to double and triple HP, to remove FLD damage, etc, when the only reason one should be dying fast, except in cases of really poor hitboxes...is you are bad and stare at the enemy (or got your IS XL cored)


SMH

(and yes, as a TT purist, I dislike that eternal hitboxes, but whatever. That also though helps explains, in part, the near invincible Lights, as the FS9, for instance, can easily put it's arm and st sideboxes in harms way)

[DONTOR]

Crimson Angel, on 14 November 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

There are some creepy undertones going on here...

[Bishop Steiner]

o0Marduk0o, on 14 November 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Your example is right but you are missing the point.

When a component gets destroyed but the hitbox is still there (valid for side torsos, legs and the small part where the arm connects), then damage transfer is going on, when you hit that location.
Guess why Centurions are so tough. The side torsos are quite small and the arm connecting area is almost as big as the side torso from the side, so shots at the side torso might hit the area where the arm was before and get reduced in damage.

Shooting a leg after it got destroyed damages the adjacent side torso. When this side torso is gone, the damage is transferred to the center torso for 16-17% of its initial value.

Otherwise you would just target the side torso to destroy the center torso, when 100% damage is transferred, which would be a huge nerf for all mechs with big side torso.

This is how it works since closed beta and there is no reason to change it.

And it isn't halved, exact test result in a 41-42% reduction.

Well, exact test result was 180 damage to pristine CT, dead Atlas.
From the side? To a lightly scratched CT? 370 damage. Looks pretty much like 50% to me.

[o0Marduk0o]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Well, exact test result was 180 damage to pristine CT, dead Atlas.
From the side? To a lightly scratched CT? 370 damage. Looks pretty much like 50% to me.

Go to the testing ground, get the exact armor values for the mechs in testing ground aka stock mechs.
A stock Atlas has 156 hitpoints (front CT armor + internals). Make the damage test with medium lasers to verify this value - it takes 155 damage to kill him. The mechs on testing ground often lose their locations with 1-2 hitpoints left, don't ask me why.
The sides torso has 117 hitpoints but you only need 115 damage to destroy it.
When you destroy the side torso the Atlas dies to ammo explosion but other mechs can be tested without ammo stored in ST.
Hitting the arm connection after blowing the arm off needs 285 damage to destroy the sidetorso, this is a reduction value of ~41%.

You can test this for every mech in testing ground, when you have the exact stock values. The % values are all the same for every mech.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Hahahahahaha, lol, coming from an almost strict light pilot all I can say is hahahahahaaa. The pulse laser build was OP before but hardly anyone used it. Past week I been making lights especially the locust look pimp and now the whiners have spoken... They sure don't mind one or two shotting me but as soon as I do it to them it's a big deal. Bahahahahagahaha

[Darian DelFord]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 14 November 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Hahahahahaha, lol, coming from an almost strict light pilot all I can say is hahahahahaaa. The pulse laser build was OP before but hardly anyone used it. Past week I been making lights especially the locust look pimp and now the whiners have spoken... They sure don't mind one or two shotting me but as soon as I do it to them it's a big deal. Bahahahahagahaha

I have finally figured out that the Heavies and Assaults think they should corner the market in how quick a mech should die. Heaven forbid if a light chassis out shine them.

Course my remark to them is simple. Put some damn armor on your back torso's and stop front loading it. If you do that, guess what your chance of dying to a light decreases exponentially. But they never listen. They think their back torso's should be invincible.

[DrxAbstract]

The Firestarter is an example of the usefulness of Combat Lights and what they are capable of when game mechanics actually function and the strengths of a Light are properly utilized.

There are a handful of reasons why the FS9 is more suited for this than a Jenner, which hurts me to say. The FS9-A appears powerful because its weapons, Small Pulse Lasers, have an extremely short shot duration which makes them, among Laser weapons, least affected by wonky hit registration because they have much less of a chance to wander from one hit location to the next... Which as we all know laser damage tends to disappear when passing from one armor section to the other during their burn time. This makes them similar to ACs and Missiles. This effect is reverse is also why Firestarters share a Spider's sometimes frustrating ability to absorb/spread damage - small, tightly packed hitboxes are hell for Lasers and the reason why Jenners are, by contrast, easier to kill.

However, justifying your position with "When i alpha a Jenner, it blah blah hit detection on Lights blah." is premature. Jenners are 75% CT and Legs... Not exactly a challenge to cripple or kill in a matter of seconds. In addition to this, Hit Registration is most pronounced for Lights but all weight classes suffer from it as I pointed out in another post; Try being a Light with a comparably smaller weapon payload and watching the few precious shots you manage to line up deal 0 damage. Just yesterday I full-on alpha'd a cherry red Timber Wolf in the back 4 times and a couple more with separate weapon groups only to have him continue running around spamming streaks on my teammates. Hit Reg goes both ways.

You can pump out high damage alphas every 3-4 seconds, essentially being more than capable of 2-shotting any Light if hits connect but you act as though the world is ending when a shot misses, requiring 3 or 4 instead? Not to mention right now the teams are mixed IS-Clan, but that aside, Clan Streaks wreck IS lights and a Clan Light carrying Streaks will wreck an IS light during a battle. My teammates will intentionally ignore an UAC5 Dakka Dire and focus fire a Streak Crow or Adder just so i can join the fight - Because a well positioned and mostly ignored Light can wreak havoc, just as they should.

I have played with and against many people that dont seem to suffer from the same issues as the OP, which suggests there's either something in the water or the OP isnt as good as he thinks. As someone else already said: lol 138 meter OPness. Sometimes i lose half my leg armor just getting into position and if i'm not careful i'll lose a leg entirely. Firestarters are not OP, they're just a portrayal of what Lights are capable of when ignored and played well without serious drawbacks like having a massive Front and Rear CT on easily hit Legs (Jenner)... And i said this was going to happen days ago in the 24hr Quirk Aftermath thread.

Queue the more you know music.

[DrxAbstract]

Darian DelFord, on 14 November 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

I have finally figured out that the Heavies and Assaults think they should corner the market in how quick a mech should die. Heaven forbid if a light chassis out shine them.

Course my remark to them is simple. Put some damn armor on your back torso's and stop front loading it. If you do that, guess what your chance of dying to a light decreases exponentially. But they never listen. They think their back torso's should be invincible.

They should also protect their Assaults, and improve their awareness... Lost count of how many Stalkers, Atlases, Dires and War Hawks, Battlemasters and missile boats in general i snaked up to from behind and plowed yesterday because they were several hundred meters behind their team and alone, completely oblivious. Considering in some of those cases I had to cross a kilometer of open ground to do it... It's not like i Houdini'd my way to their rear armor.

[Kiiyor]

Aresye, on 14 November 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Because half of what makes a "competitive light" seems to revolve around BS hit detection and the ability to tank an entire team.

You can't ignore them, because they'll chew through your back in no time.
You can't kill them, because hit detection (especially with lasers) is horrendous.
Any time you spend trying to fight them, is time the rest of their team has clear shots at you.

Jenners are fast and nimble, but there's one big difference. If I hit a Jenner in the face, it's either going to die, or it's going to hurt enough that it will try and escape from the area. I hit a Firestarter in the face with the same build, I "might" be lucky if I get a single component to orange.

It isn't just Firestarters though. Spiders, Commandos, and even the Ice Ferret have all shown to have very poor hit detection and incredibly high tanking abilities.

This is very true (I notice it far more with the Spider though). Firestarters don't seem to cause me that much grief. The hit detection seems to wax and wane for me. Some days, I have real trouble landing hits on lights moving laterally, especially at medium and close range, and especially with lasers. Other days I can burn off a limb just fine.

Most of the time, though, I can reliably land enough damage in a short amount of time to make the light scarper off, If I manage to anticipate where the light is going to be and save my big hits for those glorious moments where the light is moving towards or away from me.

Part of the issue (at least in my eyes) is that if a light has selected a target for some jovial harrasification, and is dancing around and generally making life miserable for it's larger target, it leads to a situation where the light tends to be moving at warp factor 5 whilst it's unfortunate punching bag is effectively stationary while trying to defend itself. The light is pretty much keeping it's crosshairs in the same place, and doesn't have to move it's torso a great deal.

The larger target, however, needs to twist like an old style typewriter. It has to move it's torso from one extreme lock to another, in a short period of time, and try to line up it's target, and it is here is where i'm noticing the biggest issues with hit detection. It seems to me that even though I have my crosshairs in the right place, things don't always seem to have lined up properly.

I've been experimenting with this, and i'm finding that I'm reliably able to hit lights at the same ranges if they are attacking someone else, and I don't have to make snap shots.

My theory is that HSR seems to struggle lining things up shortly after larger or quicker torso movements, which might explain how a light can traipse between the legs of a whole group.

That's with lasers though. With ballistics, i'm finding hit detection better than ever - which is kind of odd.

Anyhoo, even with hit detection the way it is, I still feel lights are an endangered species, because of PPFLD. They may seem to have HSR damage resistance for lasers, but SRM's and ballistics are still their kryptonite. All it takes is once decent wallop. I still love piloting my lights, but the payoff isn't anywhere near what I can achieve with far less effort in my heavies and assaults.

[Hades Trooper]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4a8d257943f3439

thats (a is stupidly OP, and as for 3%? i see these fluckers in EVERY match, a IS light should not being able to do a 32 alpha pin point at 152kms and strip mechs in seconds,

3 of these togther have no fear of any mech in the game

[Hades Trooper]

Kiiyor, on 14 November 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Incorrect, IMHO. Lights are already under represented and under powered compared to heavies and assaults.

Why is it that so many people seem repulsed by the idea of competitive lights?

So a comepative light is suppose to be able to tank 7 medium pulse and have broken hit boxes? right i understand if it's in your favour it's fine but if someone speaks up there whinging?

Get over yourself it's completely OP, I know you know, just i'm willing to speak up about it.

[Satan n stuff]

Bilbo, on 14 November 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Entirely too slow. It would die a horrible death...repeatedly.

That's a bit overly dramatic, it'll die once per match at the most.