76 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

You're assuming that strategy and options are limitless. Sometimes there are not enough of them available to you to make any 'good' decisions. Since you can't or won't see past an examples I'll place it to you like this: should players be punished when they already have no good options? That's the heart of my issue. Yah, you're going to lose, but do you need to be arty'd to death on top of it? I say, nope, not at all.

If you are going to lose anyway why does it matter if you also get shelled? To answer your question "should players be punished when they already have no good options?" my answer is yes. If you put yourself in a position where you no longer have any good options then you absolutely should be punished for it. Why should you be allowed an out under those circumstances?

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Personally, I hate the things and think the game would be 100% better if they were totally removed but that's not what I'm asking for. Instead, I chose reasonable suggestions to mediate the harm, perceived or otherwise, that they case to the game. When you're only answer to me is, "It's your fault you got hit" then you're only showing a lack of understanding of the conversation I'm attempting to conduct.

Reasonable suggestion to you, but completely unreasonable to me. Your suggestions more or less remove them as they would be so rare you might actually forget they exist. The thing is when your only answer to me is " I don't like them, I don't want to deal with them, and I would remove them if I could" then you are showing a lack of understanding as to why people say you are wrong. Maybe you were just looking for an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you?

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Except when you can't move out of them without moving in front of the enemy's death ball... And since we're continuing to speak in examples in this context your larger mech would be as toast as anyone else with multiple arty strikes.

I have not been in a situation like you described. Moving is always an option. It may not always be the best option, but it is still an option. Of course if you are so pinned down that you can't move at all the strikes are the least of your worries.

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I think we fundamentally disagree on the purpose of arty's. You believe they should hit anything and everything. I believe they should be mostly ineffective against anything that moves faster than 80kph. That means most IS lights and mediums would only need to pay heed for positioning. Clan mechs make this more challenging, but they already do that with their speed so this isn't new territory.

They should be able to hit anything as that is a big part of why they exist. They currently are mostly ineffective against anything that moves faster than 80kph so what is the problem?

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I believe the point of asking for nerfs is because you "don't want to deal with" them. More gauss/PPC and LRMs without ECM everyone? Yes, we ask for nerfs when we feel the game is out of balance.

That is just sad. Then again I don't have a problem with any of those things listed. So maybe everyone should stop complaining so much about everything they find inconvenient?

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

The cool down would dictate who gets to use them as it does now. And as to why keep purchasing them I'd recommend you ask that to the people who do purchase them. I'm not a representative of that population.

Except now everyone has a chance to use theirs, but under your system they would not. That is simply unacceptable.

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I describe 1 situation and you takes it as a bible. I'm asking you to expand your mind to find other similar situations which result in the same pattern. Pattern matching is the basic quality that allowed humans to evolve past apes.

There are no situations that justify what you describe for changes. I used your example because that is what you gave us.

Mitsuragi, on 14 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Also, "you people" isn't fair. I pose a conversation and you attack me. Say I need to learn to play. I make poor decisions. It's not fair to accuse people of being unwilling to learn when you aren't open to discussion.

Sure, it isn't fair, but it was perfectly ok when Dimento said the exact same kind of stuff and you happily "+1 to you sir"? Does your hypocrisy know no bounds? Its not fair to hand wave people who disagree with you and accuse them of being unwilling to discuss things because you don't like what they say.

[Coolant]

Heffey, on 14 November 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Please don't tell me you play in third person mode....

and that's a problem because you don't play in it I assume, and ur a much better pilot...

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Play against SJR or Lords. You're gonna get hit by arty. A lot. Only way you won't is if you die real fast like.

I think I have lost every time I have gone up against a group of Lords. Them using arty or not would end in the same result as they are simply better than me and my group. The strikes are the least of my concerns when facing them. The only reason they get so many strikes on the same person is because of their opponents stunned bewilderment caused by the shock and awe blitzkrieg.

[Heffey]

Coolant, on 14 November 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

and that's a problem because you don't play in it I assume, and ur a much better pilot...

Of course I play in third person. Who could possibly play in first person with that annoyingly steady crosshair? Or that pesky radar screen always blocking your view of the ground?

And god forbid my opponents not being able to see me across the map or behind cover because of a lack of bright blinking light over my head.

PGI just take first person out of the game already! Only a complete nub would use it and anyone that says otherwise is automatically an elitist douche whose opinion doesn't matter.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 14 November 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

I think I have lost every time I have gone up against a group of Lords. Them using arty or not would end in the same result as they are simply better than me and my group. The strikes are the least of my concerns when facing them. The only reason they get so many strikes on the same person is because of their opponents stunned bewilderment caused by the shock and awe blitzkrieg.

Oh very true, the results would be similar. Still just pointing out that the Comp drop Arty and Air like candy on halloween. Before, it was not uncommon to see a full 20-24 get unloaded (especially if part of your team was stupid and balled up and cowering). It is what it is. I think they should rethink arty, and long have, having each bomb do less damage, but saturate a larger area. Good for breaking up clusters and taking out the trash, but not as potent as now.

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Oh very true, the results would be similar. Still just pointing out that the Comp drop Arty and Air like candy on halloween. Before, it was not uncommon to see a full 20-24 get unloaded (especially if part of your team was stupid and balled up and cowering). It is what it is. I think they should rethink arty, and long have, having each bomb do less damage, but saturate a larger area. Good for breaking up clusters and taking out the trash, but not as potent as now.

Fair enough, but my fear with lower damage and more saturation is that I could just stand in place ignoring the couple small hits that land on me. As they are I already willingly take the hit from time to time because damage isn't enough of a deterrent for me to give up on my target.

[R Razor]

Irony: A guy that utilized the Pop Tart meta before it was nerfed and now runs around in the Clan meta complaining about someone exploiting bad game mechanics.

[Lyoto Machida]

Bilbo, on 14 November 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Well there you go. That would be the last time I would let myself be put in that position. Still don't know why you stuck around long enough to eat three artillery strikes.

Telmasa, on 14 November 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Oh, clearly he and the dire wolf should have sat, camping and cowering out of line of sight from the enemy, not shooting at anybody because if they, instead, went out and shot, they'd clearly *deserve* to get striked to death.


Do you see why I'm not buying your rhetoric?

"Hey doc...it hurts when I do this."

"Then stop doing that!"

[Mystere]

ProfessorLava, on 14 November 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Arty should maybe actually do less damage per shell but more shells over ALOT more time. Or better yet replace arty with a single airdropped mine. This mine cannot be triggered by lights, and will be easily avoidable by any other class. This system will also throw a wrench in the map dynamics and maybe we will even see fighting on rarely seen parts if the map!

I will just quote myself from another thread:

Mystere, on 14 November 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

We are talking about artillery. It is supposed to obliterate almost anything and everything that gets a direct hit. It has been that way since the time of the ancient ballista, medieval trebuchet, and all the way up to the modern howitzer. As such, I really can't imagine a 31st Century equivalent not being able to obliterate any Mech cockpit.

[Ace Selin]

Its not a game of robots killing each other with arty and airstrikes its a game of tactical bombing runs - not MechWarrior.

[Telmasa]

WarHippy, on 14 November 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

What spamming? It has a global cool down that is more than sufficient for moving your ass out of the way of the next one. A one minute cool down is going to prevent most people from being able to use them so why would anyone bother buying them when most of the time they will be unable to use them? I'm sorry, but this is just asking for nerfs in a less direct way. Strikes are fine if not a little underwhelming.

Having a bare 10-15 seconds between strikes puts it squarely under the gamer definition of "spamming". You should be buying them for the utility value, not for the "can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality.

WarHippy, on 14 November 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

No offense, but this is a stupid suggestion. Almost nobody would use them ever as 100k is more than most make on average per game. Just no.

If you're not making 100k cbills a match even without premium, you're seriously doing things wrong....

WarHippy, on 14 November 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Yet you seem entitled to having your hand held by the devs so you don't have to deal with inconvenient game mechanics.
Generally speaking it is his fault as he described. As for me using strikes I rarely do since I don't find them worth the costs when I am trying to acquire c-bills. Maybe we should buff them instead?
That is because there is no reasoning with you people.

So just like in the other artillery thread, once you're presented with rational points that directly conflict with your expressed views, instead of refuting them logically you resort to petty insults and strawman arguments.

"there is no reasoning with you people", indeed.

Macksheen, on 14 November 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

And you should be laying yours out too ... Give and take.

This is the wrong mentality to have when it comes to keeping a game fun. History of MMO shooters can show that the "can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality will absolutely kill any competitive community, usually sooner than later. Nobody finds that fun for very long, because it gets stagnant, stale, repetitive, and always defined by everybody abusing the most overpowered go-to gimmick as much as possible.

MWO is absolutely remarkable in that it strives, with every twist and turn, to avoid that, for which I truly have to thank PGI and give them lots of kudos.

It's exactly because of that that air/artillery strikes stand so far out, and why they deserve more attention.


my replies in comic sans:

WarHippy, on 14 November 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

If you are going to lose anyway why does it matter if you also get shelled? To answer your question "should players be punished when they already have no good options?" my answer is yes. If you put yourself in a position where you no longer have any good options then you absolutely should be punished for it. Why should you be allowed an out under those circumstances?
Reasonable suggestion to you, but completely unreasonable to me. Your suggestions more or less remove them as they would be so rare you might actually forget they exist. The thing is when your only answer to me is " I don't like them, I don't want to deal with them, and I would remove them if I could" then you are showing a lack of understanding as to why people say you are wrong. Maybe you were just looking for an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you?

Strawman ^

I have not been in a situation like you described. Moving is always an option. It may not always be the best option, but it is still an option. Of course if you are so pinned down that you can't move at all the strikes are the least of your worries.

We've been over this. 4-5 seconds is not enough time to make "move out da way" an always-viable option.

They should be able to hit anything as that is a big part of why they exist. They currently are mostly ineffective against anything that moves faster than 80kph so what is the problem?

So you think it's totally okay for it to serve as a paytowin nerf to any assault, slow heavy/medium, or long-range build? Come on, really? There has to be a better argument than that.

That is just sad. Then again I don't have a problem with any of those things listed. So maybe everyone should stop complaining so much about everything they find inconvenient?
Except now everyone has a chance to use theirs, but under your system they would not. That is simply unacceptable.

more strawman ^

There are no situations that justify what you describe for changes. I used your example because that is what you gave us.
Sure, it isn't fair, but it was perfectly ok when Dimento said the exact same kind of stuff and you happily "+1 to you sir"? Does your hypocrisy know no bounds? Its not fair to hand wave people who disagree with you and accuse them of being unwilling to discuss things because you don't like what they say.

One word: Irony.

WarHippy, on 14 November 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Fair enough, but my fear with lower damage and more saturation is that I could just stand in place ignoring the couple small hits that land on me. As they are I already willingly take the hit from time to time because damage isn't enough of a deterrent for me to give up on my target.

Forgive me, but you don't always get the 'choice'. Even assuming something so absurd as "choosing" whether the enemy can hit you with it or not, why on earth would you ever *choose* to take damage like that? So you can get off one more half-volley at a chosen target? This sounds like poor judgement to me.

I really do not see why you wouldn't be deterred if each strike has the potential to immediately take away a full tenth, at the LEAST, of your effectiveness for the rest of the entire match.

I can't understand you at all, apparently.

Mystere, on 14 November 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

I will just quote myself from another thread:

And yet you neglected to also quote the entirety of that discussion...where your reasoning has, thus far, not wholly stood up to closer examination.

[Sarlic]

Artillery, Airstrikes are for DAMAGE HUNTERS.

It's pathetic, unskilled, not necessary and it does not have any contribution to teamwork or the game.

Their only goal is to serve KDR / DMG hunters.

Edited by Sarlic, 15 November 2014 - 01:07 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 November 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Play against SJR or Lords. You're gonna get hit by arty. A lot. Only way you won't is if you die real fast like.

That usually doesn't happen to me, and I'm currently playing a brawler Atlas. Are you sure it's not just you?

[Sarlic]

Satan n stuff, on 15 November 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

That usually doesn't happen to me, and I'm currently playing a brawler Atlas. Are you sure it's not just you?

The houses do spam it. Because it's exactly what i tell it is. It's the sad truth.

Edited by Sarlic, 15 November 2014 - 01:14 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Sarlic, on 15 November 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

The houses do spam it. Because it's exactly what i tell it is. It's the sad truth.

Oh believe me I know that, but that doesn't mean you have to get hit by them. The best way to use a brawler assault is to keep your head down until you're close enough to engage, until then you blast any targets who don't keep their heads down. That's what I've been doing.

I did get wrecked by Heimdelight's Dire yesterday, but that match was already lost at that point.

[El Bandito]

I like the mech part of Mechwarrior: Online. I like the arty part less.

[JC Daxion]

Don't increase the cost.. that is just a bad idea for any casual/new user...


Time delay? Well faster mechs rarely get caught.. i will say slower ones have less choice.. maybe add a second, but lets not go over board..



Time till dropping another, That one i can see as the place to deal with them.. I could even see the time be as long as 2-3 mins between strikes letting a team drop 3-5 per match to me is reasonable

[Chrithu]

In view the problem isn't so much the artillery strike itself as the easy to miss smoke that is the only warning of it incoming. If you see the smoke it is easy to get ouft of the strike zone. If you are in a situation where that's not possible then frankly you deserve the pain for bad choice of positioning and the awareness of the other team.

[DrxAbstract]

I like strikes exactly as they are. They deal enough damage to make people wary of them but are not a 100% reliable in causing whatever effect you desired; be it area suppression, damage/kill dealing, harassment or buying time. I bring them in every match on every mech and have used them for every purpose imaginable, scored quad kills from them and a multitude of cockpit deaths.

Anecdote:
Just a few games ago I was busying myself with squirreling the enemy on Mining Collective in my FS9-A, using an air strike planted 50m in front of me in the direction i was running to cover my escape from a 4 man pack of pursuers. Seconds later my crosshair went red, followed by several component destruction messages and a kill. At which point i circled back around to find 2 legged lights, a dead streak crow and a Rear-CT cored Hunchie... and finished them off. How damaged they all were at the before the chase began, I couldnt say. But i was 80%+ and they were dead when it ended.

Now i have asked myself if any weapon or tool should exist in this game that allows for a situation like that to play out and decided i'm perfectly OK with it. Because in the thousands of games I have played and the hundreds of millions in C-Bills I've spent on Air/Arty Strikes, scenarios such as the one above are one in several hundred. The people that followed me around that corner made several mistakes that effectively sealed their collective fate:

1. They got squirreled to begin with.

2. The strike was placed in plain sight, easily visible to all behind me. They chose to ignore it, possibly mistaking it for an Arty strike which, if it had been, they probably would have been safe... But it wasnt.

3. They chose to continue following me after i was well away from their team's flanks, a raging murder b0ner clearly swinging between their legs.

4. They didnt realize with whom they were ****ing--Sometimes i wear my tryhard pants, usually i dont. This time I was.


Nostalgia aside, Arty/Air Strikes are tools that can give amazing results in numerous applications, but even if you know what you're doing they are not guaranteed to work or to be effective. It's pretty hit and miss even in the best of hands against the worst of opponents. In my experience, the moment the enemy knows where you are (Us pesky humans have an uncanny knack for being inconvenient like that) you should always expect them to start falling, especially if you've got friendlies clustered nearby. Staying in one place exponentially increases the chances you're going to have an explosive shell knocking on your window as time progresses.

Admittedly, no amount of situational awareness is going to tell your team i ran up Jenner alley on Frozen City, poked around a corner long enough to plant an arty strike behind your boys in the saddle and disappeared back into the buildings laughing maniacally the whole way as my crosshair turns red. But you shouldnt be waiting for that message; You shouldnt be waiting for a friendly to spot me and sound the alarm and you shouldnt be standing in saddle trading shots. You should be moving... Because it's happened before, it'll happen again and you should know better by now.

Humans are such devious, cunning little scheming bastar*s and you should never assume you're safe from their shenanigans.

[Mystere]

Telmasa, on 14 November 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

And yet you neglected to also quote the entirety of that discussion...where your reasoning has, thus far, not wholly stood up to closer examination.

Neglected? Why should I bring 16 pages into this thread when I was only responding to:

Quote

Arty should maybe actually do less damage per shell but more shells over ALOT more time.

That would be silly.