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What Would Mwo Be Like..


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#61 Shredhead

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:24 PM

View PostR Razor, on 15 November 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:


I'm impressed that you can claim there is currently variety in the game to be removed with a straight face.

The mere fact that PGI has seen fit to allow near unlimited customization has killed variety, not encouraged it........as soon as a build is shown to work that is the build you see on well over 90% of that particular mech. This is a direct result of poor game mechanics, bad balancing and poor implementation of the hard point system.

To their credit, they are trying a band aid fix (quirks) and it has seemed to help some, but there is still a definite lack of variety in this game.

Now imagine not having this variety we have now, because with size restrictions it would be a return to the days of only 6 or 7 viable mechs at all!

#62 R Razor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:27 PM

As I said, it has helped some, but it's far from where it could and should be. They have a LONG way to go and they aren't going to get there with quirks alone.

#63 Shredhead

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:47 PM

View PostR Razor, on 15 November 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:



Common sense says there would be more mechs..............that's an opinion that may or may not be validated if the OP's thoughts were actually implemented.

Having 4 or 5 mechs in use consistently IN THE GAME NOW is a fact, and by most reasonable standards, 4 or 5 mechs do not a variety make............sorry if that's not something you can wrap your intellect around and digest.

That's not even true. Do you even comp?
Viable comp mechs:
Firestarter 9A/H/Ember
Jenner 7F/K/Oxide
Raven 3L
Blackjack 1
Hunchback 4P
Shadowhawk 2H/2K/5M
Griffin 3M
Stormcrow
Thunderbolt 5SS
Jagermech 6DD/S
Mad Dog
Cataphract 3D
Timberwolf
Victor DS
Banshee 3E
Atlas 7-D-DC/S
Dire Wolf

That's 25 different variants that are seen as good comp machines.
I don't know where you get your number of 5 viable machines from.

#64 R Razor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:50 PM

No I don't "comp"...my peen size isn't measured using a video game as a metric.

In the day to day game, there are a very limited quantity of mechs in general use. 4 or 5 may be a bit of hyperbole, but it's a far cry from 25 or so. The ones you see with regularity are all outfitted the same way and none are even close to the original designs.

Now, shouldn't be grouping up with the rest of your epeen boyband mates and hitting up the group que in your 10 or 12 man to farm the 2 - 5 player groups?

#65 Quxudica

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:00 PM

OP here: I haven't replied much as I've been more interested to see the discussion than anything else. But just to clarify - this isn't a complaint thread but rather a thought experiment, a day dream. I don't care if raven's mount srm 6's, I don't even know if that's an actual build as I haven't run a raven since the week they were released. The builds I listed were random examples off the top of my head of combinations that seemed like they would have size issues.

I'm just curious what the game would be like if there were more clear lines separating the roles of each chassis, if there were more sim elements involved in the building of a mech. While it's true a Sherman battle tank could be modified to increase it's firepower or carry different weapons for different roles, there comes a point where the chassis reaches it's limit and a bigger tank must be designed or utilized.

There are, as have been mentioned, mechs in BT designed specifically to carry oversized weapons. The Hollander or the Hunchback have both been mentioned already, but the special quality of these chassis are somewhat lost when the weapons themselves don't really have set dimensions.

I don't know if it would be better, I don't know if it would be worse, I do know that it wouldn't be to everyone's liking. I'm simply wondering what the game would be like if the world had a few more solid rules, if a 15 ton cannon wasn't made of shapeshifting metal.

There is of course the standard rebuttal when one suggests thinking perhaps a bit to deeply about fictional things. The "It's giant death robots it doesn't have to be realistic" argument in this case. However that argument is firstly missing the point of the thread and secondly - the more defined the rules of your fictional world, the more grounded in reality (for want of a better phrase) it tries to be the more engrossing and alive it becomes.

I love customization, I love being able to build my mechs the way I want. But sometimes I do wonder if the game loses something when any 25 ton chassis can theoretically mount the same weapons as a 100 ton behemoth. Limitations don't just serve as restrictions on us, they also serve to explain why things are the way they are, the Hunchback's design for example serves no purpose in the world of MWO. You don't need to dedicate an entire chassis variant to the support and use of an AC/20 when anything with a ballistic slot and enough critical space can carry it.

#66 R Razor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:05 PM

What you say makes sense OP, but as has been stated several times.......it won't ever happen and titling at windmills isn't going to change that.

There are too many people (like the ones that have already posted in here) that don't give a rats posterior about the simulation aspect of this game, they want giant stompy robots that they can outfit with whatever weapon is currently favored by dismal game mechanics and balance issues so they can run around killing other giant stompy robots and feel good about themselves and their lives.

PGI recognizes and in fact, some might say, encourages this thought process as it makes them money, hence there won't be any changes made.

Just keep your fingers crossed that some day before you get old and die, another game is released that actually does care about Lore and making a simulation as opposed to Hawken on steroids.

#67 Shredhead

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:35 PM

View PostR Razor, on 15 November 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

No I don't "comp"...my peen size isn't measured using a video game as a metric.

So you can't back up your claims and have to resort to insults. Got ya.

Quote

In the day to day game, there are a very limited quantity of mechs in general use. 4 or 5 may be a bit of hyperbole, but it's a far cry from 25 or so. The ones you see with regularity are all outfitted the same way and none are even close to the original designs.

Wrong and wrong. The quirked mechs tend to sport limited fittings, yes, but all the clan mechs and some of the IS mechs have very varied loadouts that are still seen as viable. It seems you don't have much of a clue about this game.

Quote

Now, shouldn't be grouping up with the rest of your epeen boyband mates and hitting up the group que in your 10 or 12 man to farm the 2 - 5 player groups?

And more petty insults. Your life must be a very sad one, kid.

View PostR Razor, on 15 November 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

What you say makes sense OP, but as has been stated several times.......it won't ever happen and titling at windmills isn't going to change that.

There are too many people (like the ones that have already posted in here) that don't give a rats posterior about the simulation aspect of this game, they want giant stompy robots that they can outfit with whatever weapon is currently favored by dismal game mechanics and balance issues so they can run around killing other giant stompy robots and feel good about themselves and their lives.

Strange, because I know a whole lot of people who want more simulation aspects in the game. If you want a simulated TT game, MegaMek is this way --->

Quote

PGI recognizes and in fact, some might say, encourages this thought process as it makes them money, hence there won't be any changes made.

Just keep your fingers crossed that some day before you get old and die, another game is released that actually does care about Lore and making a simulation as opposed to Hawken on steroids.

"Hawken on steroids"
Posted Image

#68 Tesunie

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:40 PM

Just to mention it, I didn't read the whole thread... Just wanted to respond to the OP.

View PostQuxudica, on 14 November 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

If weapons and equipment had actual size requirements. I don't mean critical slots, but actual set dimensions. What if an SRM six was to big to fit in a Raven, an LRM20 to large to drop in a Stormcrow or a Gauss Rifle to big to fit in a K2? What if a PPC cannon, that is the size of a Spiders torso on a K2, couldn't just be dropped into a Spiders energy arm?


In Battletech, and similar to real life, many things can be changed out in a piece of machinery. In BT, you can change out weapons on custom rigs and the Gyro would be recalibrated to help balance the mech to the new weight specs. You also have enough structure to hold said weight on a mech (because it's created using even more advanced construction equipment than we have now). In lore, many mechs were designed, or redesigned, to fit large and heavy weapons into them. The Hollander is one such mech, which is a 30 ton mech that fits a single Gauss rifle into it's frame. The Hunchback also comes to mind. As far as PPCs, you have mechs such as the Panther, 35 ton mech. You have the Hussar, a 20 ton mech if I recall right, which had a single ERLL.

Small mechs actually could carry large weapons on a regular basis. Happens all the time in lore. (Of course, customizing a mech in lore was... not an easy or cheap job. Each change required a complete overhaul of the Gyro, if not even more. Not to mention alignment of the weapon system to the targeting computer, and on top of that ammo and/or power feeds and don't forget coolant lines....)

View PostQuxudica, on 14 November 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

What if you weren't able to jam any weapon into any chassis that had enough vaguely defined "critical slots"? How would the game play If the heaviest weapons could only be carried by the heaviest chassis, or special lighter chassis designed specifically to hoist and support a vastly over sized gun?


By all accounts, from a lore based perspective (and with my limited knowledge of such), there are technically no "hard point" limitations in BT. You can, with a standard mech, change out everything about it (with some limitations). However, it's not easy, and costs a fortune to do so. You can rip out those MGs on your K2, and replace your PPCs with AC20s if you desired. You could also, in lore, take those same chassis and place 12 MGs on it. This is provided you could place (which is crit space reasons) the weapons onto mounting points onto the frame itself.

This was, however, a very costly process. Thus, customizing mechs in the IS was a very rare sight. It took months to years to customize a single mech, and billions of c-bills. You were normally better off just buying a new mech entirely, it would be that expensive to do half the customizing we do in this game, and far more time consuming.

View PostQuxudica, on 14 November 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

What would the game be like if weapons didn't exist in a vacuum? If slotting a large laser into a chassis only worked if that chassis had the power infrastructure to support such weapon? Or slotting an AC20 only worked if the ballistic slot had the mechanics to accommodate it?


The fusion reactors produce plenty of energy for the mech for a long time. There basically was no "power limits" on a battlemech's fusion reactors (with some power spike exceptions, such as two Gauss rifles recharging at the same time). As for engine size (as I figure that question is coming next), that is just determining how much of that power can be converted to locomotion, but doesn't effect weapon power draws (which are handled within the weight of the weapons themselves). The larger the engine, the more energy that can be converted into locomotion. Fusion reactor chamber basically remains the same.

View PostQuxudica, on 14 November 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

How would the game play if ammunition had to be placed in logical locations, and you couldn't magically pull AC20 shells from your left foot to a gun mounted in your right arm? or siphon high explosive missiles from under your pilots seat?


Most "lore" specs placed the ammo in the torsos, as they did consider easier feeds and considerations. However, they did have ways (and even some designs that stock had ammo in legs and heads) to have longer ammo feeds to be able to draw ammo from those far off bins. For the most part, in lore and TT, ammo in the torso wasn't as big of an issue as it is n MW:O. This is mostly because of a lack of "instant perfect convergence". In TT and BT lore, shots didn't normally land in the same place too many times, and the CT was the most commonly hit place on the mech. Thus, ammo in a side torso often times was rather safe for most encounters. Here, people can aim for the side torso if they know/suspect you have ammo there.

As far as addressing ammo "under the pilots seat", I'd like to remind that there is more in the head section than just a cockpit. You have space for life support system, and there is "one crit of space" for some other gear. The actual physical space of frame one crit is, I wouldn't know. This is where game balance and physical sense probably needs to detract from each other a bit.

View Crit space as mounting space within a frame within the structure after all the internal gear needed for operation is placed. Smaller mechs require less internal gear, larger mechs more. This is why a 20 ton mech has the same "crit space" as a 100 ton mech. The "internal gears" take up enough space to leave the same number of "mounting spaces" (crit spaces) open afterwards.


Now, I wont claim to be a master of all things Battletech. I wont even claim that I have perfect statements here. Just my view on the subject. (I'm also may be miss saying some of this, not saying something exactly as I'm trying to say it, and I'm tired..)

#69 Tesunie

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:50 PM

View PostQuxudica, on 15 November 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

if a 15 ton cannon wasn't made of shapeshifting metal.


Warning: I can't say I read through the whole post, but your line here has a counterpoint. Different manufacturers, different design specs, and different overall shapes. Just like a car's engine. One car's engine can be vastly different from a different car's engine, even from the same car line, car company, etc. Often times, you can change engine sizes/types. This doesn't mean all engines will fit into the car mechanically, but there can be engines of similar power to another engine that may be compatible. An example: I own a 3 cylinder Metro. I could, if I desired to, place a 6 cyl engine into the car with enough work and effort. (Not saying it'd be good for said car, but it could be done technically.)

Similar concept to weapons in a mech. From lore, the Yen-Lo-Wang had an AC20, but it couldn't fit just any AC20 on the frame. However, it could replace it's AC10 with a certain line of select AC20s. It might not be the same AC20 as in a hunchback though, but it was still a type of AC20.

(I think I'm starting to ramble... too tired...)

#70 Quxudica

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:58 PM

View PostTesunie, on 15 November 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Just to mention it, I didn't read the whole thread... Just wanted to respond to the OP.



While I appreciate the detailed reply, the idea behind the thread isn't "what if MWO was more lore accurate" but rather what would the game play like if it had these types of rules. Maybe there is a lore explanation for taking cannon shells from the left foot to the right hand, but the idea I'm contemplating is how would the game play if that weren't possible, if ammo did need to placed in certain locations.

#71 Tesunie

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:10 PM

View PostQuxudica, on 15 November 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:


While I appreciate the detailed reply, the idea behind the thread isn't "what if MWO was more lore accurate" but rather what would the game play like if it had these types of rules. Maybe there is a lore explanation for taking cannon shells from the left foot to the right hand, but the idea I'm contemplating is how would the game play if that weren't possible, if ammo did need to placed in certain locations.


I can understand that, and with no insult meant.... Exceedingly overly complicated...? (Maybe?)

As far as ammo in a leg being feed into another section (like example opposite arm), what about ammo feeds tracing through the joints? What would keep tubes and mechanisms from feeding ammo being held in a leg (or more likely hip location not really in the leg, but not in the torso either) to be feed through the torso and into said arm?
(Just a response to the one remark. And yes, I do understand what you are saying. Mostly playing "devil's advocate" here.)

#72 SuomiWarder

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:11 PM

Confirmed on BT table top rules. There are no hard points, just crit slots in mech sections. You can do anything you want that fits and comes in under weight. Strip out all your energy weapons for 12 MGs - whatever. There were rules for the cost of changes for campaign play. People designing their own mechs for use never worried about those and fielded whatever they wanted of course.

There was no actual difference between any given set of say 50 ton mechs. Any type could be retrofitted to belike any other mech of the same weight.

#73 Sandpit

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:33 AM

View PostTezcatli, on 15 November 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:


The original post was not about tonnage. It was purely looking at the weapon sizes as a way of restricting larger weapons on certain mechs. So I was trying to convey that while unrealistic, the slot system is practical and simple in a way that doesn't make the game convoluted or super restrictive.

I understand that, I'm pointing out to the ones arguing for sized hardpoints just why their arguments of "because that mech shouldn't carry a weapon that big" are simply made from a position that has no support in any iteration of Btech, MW, lore, TT rules, every other MW game ever made, etc.

#74 Sandpit

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:36 AM

View PostQuxudica, on 15 November 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:


While I appreciate the detailed reply, the idea behind the thread isn't "what if MWO was more lore accurate" but rather what would the game play like if it had these types of rules. Maybe there is a lore explanation for taking cannon shells from the left foot to the right hand, but the idea I'm contemplating is how would the game play if that weren't possible, if ammo did need to placed in certain locations.

it wouldn't change anything. It would actually limit variety even more. You'd have even more cookie cutter cheese min.max builds on a very limited number of chassis.
The customization is a double-edged sword. You can take any chassis you want (pre quirks era anyhow) and throw whatever hardpoints were available on it. The hardpoint designations are actually one of the few things that help create a little more variety and now with quirks there's a big opportunity for even more variety and incentives for players to take more than the 10 or so "common" mechs taken 90% of the time.

#75 Krivvan

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 01:17 AM

View PostR Razor, on 15 November 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

In the day to day game, there are a very limited quantity of mechs in general use. 4 or 5 may be a bit of hyperbole, but it's a far cry from 25 or so. The ones you see with regularity are all outfitted the same way and none are even close to the original designs.

In the day to day game there's even more variety because people are willing to take completely backwards insane bad builds (which is fine if that floats your boat). If you want, I could stream a few hours of games and we can count how many unique variants we see. :)

You know what? We'll do it now. These were all in my Timberwolf so it's at average elo:

http://www.twitch.tv...880718?t=08m05s
Over 18 unique mechs? Well over the 4 or 5 you're saying. Maybe it was a fluke

http://www.twitch.tv...880718?t=17m35s
Ok, here's the very next game. Huh, over 19 unique mechs. Not looking very good for your claim.

http://www.twitch.tv...538384?t=08m01s
This was from even before the quirks with a higher elo. 17 unique variants. A far cry from only 4 or 5.

Let's go on to the group queue:
Posted Image
Ok, around 17 unique variants.

Posted Image
20 unique variants in this one match alone. But you're right, that's a very far cry from 25. Please.

Your points would've made far more sense if you were talking about comp games only.

Edited by Krivvan, 16 November 2014 - 01:47 AM.


#76 Remarius

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 01:24 AM

View PostDaneiel, on 15 November 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:


And don't forget that would see much more Adders wreking medium and heavies , Centurions would hold their ground agains almost any mech , jeners still would live with the moto " Cry "Havok" and let slip the dogs of war" .


La la land is rich in this thread I see. Not good when people pushing a viewpoint have to resort to plain fanciful thinking for their arguments.

The only way you could even vaguely get the OP's idea to work is to insanely quirk up every mech that would be penalised.

Ever thought that most of us don't want to play your stock inflexible game?





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