19 replies to this topic

[-Halcyon-]

What is this thread?
Not another LRM OP thread, your brain is screaming right now?
First of all, I'll write this in big bold capital letters so there can be no misunderstanding. Ok, ready?


LRMs ARE NOT OP


There. Now we have covered that base.
Individually, LRMs are not overpowered in any way, shape or form. Individually. As in, on a player by player basis.

So what makes LRMs to be considered OP then?


Universal Indirect Fire with Free Shared Targeting


This is the root of all LRM woes and why we keep seeing LRM complaint thread after complaint thread. It's not the missiles at all. It's how they use free shared targeting.
This isn't the first thread about this, and it won't be the last. But as long as this root problem continues existing these threads will continue to be made.

As long as every LRM user in a match universally gets to indirectly fire on a free target lock without line of sight, LRMs will continue to be considered OP.

Known LRM facts:

• weak against organized, experienced players playing as a team with communication and focus

• strong against unorganized, inexperienced players not playing as a team without communication and with no focus in a PUG format, aka the solo drop queue

• can be fired at any locked target shared from another team mate for free without the use of TAG, NARC, or any type of C3 mechanic

• the missiles will track a target when fired indirectly without line of sight

LRMs are the only weapon in the game that allows every player with one equipped to fire it from anywhere on the map without line of sight at a target supplied by another player.

Ballistics? Needs line of sight.
SRMs? Needs line of sight.
Lasers? Needs line of sight.
Artillery? Needs line of sight.
Airstrike? Needs line of sight.
Flamer? (lol) Still needs line of sight.

LRMs? Do NOT need line of sight. Fire from anywhere, at any time, with missile tracking and no penalty.


Why Does This Unbalance the Solo Queue?


Because most of the solo queue is pubbers who aren't grouped with the rest of the team, or using any type of VOX communication (because in-game VOX doesn't exist), don't stick with their lances, and basically run around like lemmings as if they're playing a single player game with a bunch of bots populating it.

One guy gets a target lock, and suddenly every other guy with LRMs is mashing the trigger and 80+ LRMs blot out the sun to converge on some poor new player.

Changing LRM damage will not fix this issue.
Changing LRM velocity will not fix this issue.
Changing LRM spread, arc, or cooldown WILL NOT FIX THIS ISSUE.

Removing free shared targeting will fix this issue.
Requiring TAG or NARC for indirect LRM fire with missile tracking will fix this issue.
Requiring the LRM boater to get line of sight to get their own target and fire their missiles will fix this issue.

And now.....openeth thy floodgates of fiery flaming.

[Mcgral18]

You must realize that LRMs are terribad direct fire weapons due to their travel speed.

They'll need hefty buffs to compensate for their only redeeming feature.


Which is, by the way, working as you would expect from TT. C3 computers do nothing for indirect fire. But I really don't care much about that.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Which is one of the big reasons I was a fan of ECM under the old format. ECM forced LRM boat to rely on teammates to supply them date via NARC and TAG or at least get into direct line of sight themselves to use their own NARC and TAG.

Honestly I am not opposed to BAP (and CAP) to have a range of 360m however it needs to be limited to only allowing the equipped mech to burn through ECM and target the enemy. This will force LRM boats to equip BAP and move into direct fire ranges of 360m in order to reach maximum effectiveness. Don't get me wrong here, they will still have an indirect fire role but at long ranges, they would have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs for targeting. Otherwise they would have to equip BAP or CAP and move into direct fire where they can also be taken under direct fire. This is the balance they need.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 16 November 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

I want the ability to saturation bomb an area with my LRM's. Screw targeting, I want to blanket a grid square in fiery death!

As it so happens, that should be non-spotter indirect fire. You just bomb grid squares, until a unit with TAG/NARC designates a target for guided indirect fire.

[Monkey Lover]

Lrms work great for the challenge . They make lots of worthless dmg without killing the mech. This is what gives you the highest score.

[Darian DelFord]

What I think is Hilarious about the LRM's are OP people is this.. I will go into combat with 2300+ rounds, by the end of the match have nothing left and only have done 500ish points of damage

[Lynx7725]

Darian DelFord, on 16 November 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

What I think is Hilarious about the LRM's are OP people is this.. I will go into combat with 2300+ rounds, by the end of the match have nothing left and only have done 500ish points of damage

I have to say that is truly terrible hit rates. What were you doing, facing a wall?

[Mcgral18]

Lynx7725, on 16 November 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I have to say that is truly terrible hit rates. What were you doing, facing a wall?

Playing against competent players?

[James DeGriz]

Another LRM thread trotting out the same things that have been talked about ad nauseum in all the others.

OP, seriously, why did you think this was necessary, other than the thought of guaranteed contributions to it?

Oh and one thing you forgot in your "fix list":

PLAYERS BOTHERING TO ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS AND USE THE COUNTLESS METHODS OF COUNTERING LRMS THAT HAVE BEEN TROTTED OUT ON EVERY THREAD SOMEONE WRITES COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM.

DO WHAT YOU CAN TO COUNTER / AVOID LRMS. DON'T EXPECT THE GAME TO ADAPT TO YOUR LAZINESS / STUPIDITY

[Lynx7725]

Mcgral18, on 16 November 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Playing against competent players?

Maybe. I've hadn't the opportunity to play much recently, school and work being the angry female canines they are, but a few recent games in the solo queue showed to me that the BAP changes are making big inroads into the previous ECM issue.

Truth be told "Competent players" who knew how to inherently avoid LRMs consistently without the use of ECM (or AMS) isn't that common, maybe one or two in every team. A lot of folks relied too much on ECM and AMS (often unknowingly) to protect themselves from LRMs, so now with ECM stripped away more readily, the percentage of people getting hit by LRMs just goes up. So, my expectations when you bring over 2K of warload is sort of to get somewhat better than 30~40% hit rates with them.. which in this case means 600+ points of damage, as a lower bound.

[Darian DelFord]

Mcgral18, on 16 November 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Playing against competent players?

Bingo

[Hades Trooper]

idk we ran 8 lrms boats tonight with 3 narc ravens and blotted out the sun for many people. plus 1 srm/laser mech

putting 330 missiles in the air at once at a narced mech who was caught int the open caused much joy and much sadness.

we even had to slow down and let people get assists as mechs would die too fast. combined we had 3 narcs and 5 tags.

[-Halcyon-]

Mcgral18, on 16 November 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

You must realize that LRMs are terribad direct fire weapons due to their travel speed.

They'll need hefty buffs to compensate for their only redeeming feature.


Which is, by the way, working as you would expect from TT. C3 computers do nothing for indirect fire. But I really don't care much about that.

I am all for doubling their current damage if the shared targeting mechanics were changed.

[-Halcyon-]

James DeGriz, on 16 November 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

PLAYERS BOTHERING TO ENGAGE THEIR BRAINS AND USE THE COUNTLESS METHODS OF COUNTERING LRMS

They're not countless, I can count them.

ECM - effectiveness greatly reduced with recent changes to BAP
Cover - does diddly on maps like Caldera
AMS - as effective as using an umbrella in a hurricane

And for every other "countless" counter you could counter with, I'll counter right back with:

- PUGs
- no VOX
- no communication
- no tactics
- no teamwork

Instead of responding to my point that these mechanics unbalance PUG solo play, which is where the majority of matches are played in, you came back with a blanket "just counter it!!!111allcaps!!1!" response that really doesn't amount to much.

Try using your brain dude.

[James DeGriz]

Halcyon201, on 16 November 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

They're not countless, I can count them.

ECM - effectiveness greatly reduced with recent changes to BAP
Cover - does diddly on maps like Caldera
AMS - as effective as using an umbrella in a hurricane

And for every other "countless" counter you could counter with, I'll counter right back with:

- PUGs
- no VOX
- no communication
- no tactics
- no teamwork

Instead of responding to my point that these mechanics unbalance PUG solo play, which is where the majority of matches are played in, you came back with a blanket "just counter it!!!111allcaps!!1!" response that really doesn't amount to much.

Try using your brain dude.

Use Radar Dep module. Use cover rather than just staying behind it. Look for ways to flank the LRM boats and also their spotters. Don't stand out in the open. Don't become a ridge humper and also the only target the enemy team seas at the beginning of a match... I could go on.

Additionally, whilst 3rd party voice comms makes teamwork easier, the tools we have in PUGs don't make it impossible. Use the map to check where your team is, and to ensure you're not out on your own, use team chat to convey basic strategies, use the frackin R key to show your team what you're targetting so that they can focus fire on it.

On the subject of brain useage, your post contains the same rhetoric that EVERY other post over the past week has contained. There is nothing new in what you're saying, and yet you feel that some how you are the special little snowflake that will make everyone listen to what you believe is your unique point of view.

I DO use my brain. That's why LRMs don't need the change, the players and the way they deal with them is what needs to change.

Edited by James DeGriz, 16 November 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[Errant Variable]

Obvious NARC warnings, lower LRM refire rates, and fixes to the instant universal lock sharing all need to happen. LRMs also need to be easier to actually land some hits with. And maybe Radar Dep being less bloody expensive.

[MischiefSC]

Been saying this for a while. I can deal with lrms, it's that I need to play every match around them that is bad. I've seen to tier players drop to lrms plenty of times by the way. I get the braggadocio but everyone falls to lrms on some maps.

The issue is indirect fire. Nerf it, buff direct fire. Double missile speed, flatten arc. Op is spot on. Indirect fire is a bad mechanic for the primary use on a weapon. Nerf the **** out of it, buff direct fire to be viable compared to everything else. Then we can evaluate ecm and fix the Jesus box.

[STEF_]

Halcyon201, on 16 November 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

What is this thread?
Not another LRM OP thread, your brain is screaming right now?
First of all, I'll write this in big bold capital letters so there can be no misunderstanding. Ok, ready?


LRMs ARE NOT OP

That is like saying.....mmmm what is the opposite of OP?.... PO?

Terribad. Just terribad.

Really would like to see Lrm as useful weapon.

Now, what is annoying are the lrm itself (no damage, but boring), the abnormous quantity of lrm boats this weekend, and the abnourmous quantity of players that cannot deal with them.

Yesterday I tried to write some posts, trying to explain why lrms and lock mechanics should be changed..... surprisiling enough a lot of forumers thought that I wanted to nerf them

Just the opposite! They are terribad right now, if an average player like me have died by lurms, I think 2 or 3 times with this account....

[Moonlander]

While this isn't an LRMs are OP thread... it is another thread blaming targeting for the reason people perceive LRMs to be OP. Which might I add is always the argument in the LRMs are OP threads... so really, it doesn't need its own thread.... again!

[Egomane]

Older threads by the same user with the same or at least a very similar topic.
http://mwomercs.com/...gestion-thread/
also
http://mwomercs.com/...-data-for-free/
and
http://mwomercs.com/...-need-a-change/
and somewhat older
http://mwomercs.com/...n-the-lrm-spam/

Nothing new to see here. Closing this as a duplicate.

Halcyon201, please refrain from creating the same or similar topic again!