114 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Its not the LRM50, its the 3 LRM50s, hitting you in a constant stream, because god forbid, you stepped out onto the dance floor to enjoy yourself.

Thats the issue. Sure you can deal with it. But the easiest most effective way to deal with it, is to just not show up. Not log in.

The dance hall isnt going to stay around very long, or be very populated with patrons, if people are deciding its not worth it to show up.

IF the frustration from being LRMed is higher than the enjoyment level of not being LRMed...people dont log in. If people dont log in. Game dies.

Regardless of whose fault it is...thats the crux. How many people are not logging in, because sitting under cover following "the rules of the game" isnt enjoyable to them.

[Joseph Mallan]

Darkslicer, on 17 November 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

The damage of LRMs isn't the problem, it's the very non-skillbased gameplay and ability to indirectly tag every enemy for assists that comes with it. The events in particular are catered to LRM boats, and one really can't say otherwise as most of the people playing in the past event were trying to avoid getting kills because it would have hurt their scoring considerably. Players with LRMs can just sit about 1000m back from the action, stand still, get reliable damage and assists on enemies with minimal effort, and then cut off said damage once an enemy's close to death so someone else could pick off the kill. It's very cheesy and the mechanics really should be reworked in some way.

If you are staying 1000 M back you are not going ot get that reliable of hits. you need to be around 300-500 m away for best results.

[PurpleNinja]

Toast001, on 17 November 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

This is the way I see it from my point of view. When I am getting pounded by hundreds of lrms I fault myself for being out of position. It's not like your not given a warning or they move at incredible speed or your not given a choice of buying mods to help you lose the missile lock. I would say screen Impact needs more of a nerf then the lrms themselves. I mean do you think Isis should tell the UN to nerf American air strikes, no it's just a reality of war.

Then it makes no sense nerfing clan weapons and giving IS quirks.

[Lynx7725]

Fundamentally we're talking about two different things.

One side is saying that the LRM is balanced.

The other side is saying getting LRM is not fun.

Both can be true at the same time.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Its not the LRM50, its the 3 LRM50s, hitting you in a constant stream, because god forbid, you stepped out onto the dance floor to enjoy yourself.

Thats the issue. Sure you can deal with it. But the easiest most effective way to deal with it, is to just not show up. Not log in.

The dance hall isnt going to stay around very long, or be very populated with patrons, if people are deciding its not worth it to show up.

IF the frustration from being LRMed is higher than the enjoyment level of not being LRMed...people dont log in. If people dont log in. Game dies.

Regardless of whose fault it is...thats the crux. How many people are not logging in, because sitting under cover following "the rules of the game" isnt enjoyable to them.

Thats only 150 Missiles. Read about this guy, and those who applaud his tactics!

[Darkslicer]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

If you are staying 1000 M back you are not going ot get that reliable of hits. you need to be around 300-500 m away for best results.

I meant within that range.

[Fut]

Lynx7725, on 17 November 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

The other side is saying getting LRM is not fun.

This is true, but people should realize that getting smacked by LRMs isn't supposed to be fun - much like getting smacked by 2xPPCs isn't supposed to be fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

Darkslicer, on 17 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

I meant within that range.

Still its not recommended you try to from that range. Takes to long to get your ordinance on target.

[Prezimonto]

mogs01gt, on 17 November 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

One issue I find is that when you have enemy lights locking on, using TAG or NARC, they are difficult to deal with. Most other light mechs arent spec'd to quickly take out another light and lights are a PITA to hit with lasers for the full duration. Mediums have to use a large engine to go light hunting but then expose themselves to LRM fire and no DPS to strip back armor on Heavies or Assaults.

Yes its your fault for getting caught out in the open but it's frustrating with dealing with a light mech spotting.

Either way, we run into the same fix. These maps are too small for 12v12 and the game modes are nothing more than TDM.

Appropriately so. If the enemy team has a whole mech dedicated to spotting that's a HUGE investment in resources compared to a NARC or UAV. UAV's also aren't a problem unless you're not paying attention, over the weekend I found if I was being pounded by LRM's with no obvious exposure point it was from a UAV 4/5 times. The BEST thing to do in that situation is to eat the next wave of LRM's in favor of shooting the UAV down.

NARC is tricky, as there are situations where you're just hosed. Fighting along the rim of the crater on Caustic, and over hills on Alpine come directly to mind. The only real solution is to pray you have an ECM buddy near by, or to start running down hill away from the LRM fire, and large mechs aren't going to get far enough away.

TAG, as already noted SHOULD be rewarded as it's difficult to reliably use to guide flight after flight of missiles into a target.

Any other situation is totally your fault for being caught out. JUST LIKE it's your fault for being caught out and taking damage from ANY source.

[KraftySOT]

I look at it like this.

What is the draw of MWO?

Blasting mechs. Thats what there is to do currently, thats what the showcase is, thats the headliner, thats the main act. Blasting mechs.

Thats what people are coming through the door to see and do.

Therefor everything preventing blasting mechs, is simply frustration. Clicks to get to the blasting, things preventing the blasting, the wait for the blasting, the being blasted without doing any blasting of your own.

People go to a dance hall to dance. People play MWO to blast mechs.

If your dancehall is preventing people from dancing, or a gameplay mechanic is keeping you from blasting mechs...thats bad. Thats going to lead to a lower turnout. Because people want to do the thing that is the premier thing to do, wherever they went to do something.

If you want to get out onto the dancefloor and blast mechs, but the bouncer with the LRMs is standing there holding you back from getting out onto the dancefloor, but instead keeps you cornered behind the bar....youre not going to keep coming back. You want to dance. Not sit.

You want to blast. Not sit.

Its the same thing, and its generally toxic for the health of the venue/game.

Im not telling you what to do about it, as I have no idea how to fix it...im just saying thats what most of the LRM debate is missing.

People WANT to stand in the open and blast mechs. When they cant do that, theyre upset.

Regardless of its human nature, or theyre lazy, or they dont want to learn the defacto rules...whoevers fault that is, the fact is, they wont show up if its not letting them do what they came to do.

[Josef Nader]

What's the difference between an LRM boat and a twin gauss Jäger, or a 2 AC5 Shadow Hawk, or even a 2 AC2 Blackjack? All of these mechs can stand well back from the front line, hiding in cover, and tag enemy mechs for a few points of damage for minimal effort. It's not hard for most people to land at least one shot as long as they aren't being pressured, and they get the same degree of assists as LRMs do. Shoot, their damage is even more reliable, as it'll all hit if they manage to score the hit. It doesn't take a lot of skill for someone to score at least one or two direct fire ballistic hits, or laser hits at a safe distance.

Long range direct fire support isn't any more or less effective when played poorly than LRM support. Both involve putting the circle over the robots and pushing the buttons till the robots fall down. One of these requires several seconds to track. One of these travels to it's target in fractions of a second. Both are incredibly simple, and you people need to seriously take into consideration how difficult it is to put a crosshair over a target at 400+ meters while standing still behind cover and unpressured by the enemy team and scoring some decent hits. Hating on LRM boats, who have demonstrably worse weapons than direct fire support builds, is horribly misguided.

tl;dr You'd be bad even if there were no LRM boats in the game, and you'd likely be screeching about ERLL, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, or AC2/5 cowards instead, complaining that it was no fun to hide in cover most of the match and that it wasn't fair that multiple mechs could gang up on you with minimal risk to themselves. In fact, I know for a fact that's what will happen, as LRMs have been useless for the bulk of the time I've played MWO. They've only hit viability in the last 6 months or so.

Edited by Josef Nader, 17 November 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Thats only 150 Missiles. Read about this guy, and those who applaud his tactics!

That guy would refuse to play me on a single map sheet. Thats the problem with munchkins. They wont do anything on your terms, ever.

[Purger of Man]

I myself wouldn't use Lrm's nor do I use Ams because I like to follow the bushido code (as best I can) because it's fun to role play and adds another level of difficulty to the game. This is a a war game and it's alright to be afraid of something, but when you close in on them it is they who are afraid, which in turn makes for a satisfying experience in my opinion. Though I do admit, a warning as to me being narc'ed would be appreciated


Ps: Just a random hint: Look to the skies, and press Q and pan across your team healths,
allows you to know where the lrm's are and where the ecm bubble is assaulting

Edited by Purger of Man, 17 November 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Hospy]

Radar deprivation fixes everything.

Kind of like double heat sinks, gotta have it or you're gimped.

[Fut]

Hospy, on 17 November 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Radar deprivation fixes everything.

Kind of like double heat sinks, gotta have it or you're gimped.

False.
I do not use Radar Derp or AMS on any of my Mechs, and I do just fine.

[KraftySOT]

But that Lyran Archer guy I can actually avoid. He and I wont ever be in the same game. He'll say, ok im bringing my Archers.

No worries man, lets play on a single map sheet.

No.

Why not dude?

Because then I wont win.

Ah I see. Well im gonna go play with that guy over there who wants to play with Rifleman and Commandos.

Thats the difference. I cant choose to level the playing field, and then not play, if the other guy refuses to have a level playing field.

If I do that here. It means im not logging in at all. Im playing Megamek. How is that good for MWO?

[Prezimonto]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

I look at it like this.

What is the draw of MWO?

Blasting mechs. Thats what there is to do currently, thats what the showcase is, thats the headliner, thats the main act. Blasting mechs.

Thats what people are coming through the door to see and do.

Therefor everything preventing blasting mechs, is simply frustration. Clicks to get to the blasting, things preventing the blasting, the wait for the blasting, the being blasted without doing any blasting of your own.

People go to a dance hall to dance. People play MWO to blast mechs.

If your dancehall is preventing people from dancing, or a gameplay mechanic is keeping you from blasting mechs...thats bad. Thats going to lead to a lower turnout. Because people want to do the thing that is the premier thing to do, wherever they went to do something.

If you want to get out onto the dancefloor and blast mechs, but the bouncer with the LRMs is standing there holding you back from getting out onto the dancefloor, but instead keeps you cornered behind the bar....youre not going to keep coming back. You want to dance. Not sit.

You want to blast. Not sit.

Its the same thing, and its generally toxic for the health of the venue/game.

Im not telling you what to do about it, as I have no idea how to fix it...im just saying thats what most of the LRM debate is missing.

People WANT to stand in the open and blast mechs. When they cant do that, theyre upset.

Regardless of its human nature, or theyre lazy, or they dont want to learn the defacto rules...whoevers fault that is, the fact is, they wont show up if its not letting them do what they came to do.

The point is standing in the open is bad for your mech's health due to ALL the direct fire weapons as well as LRM's.

I do understand what you're getting at, but outside of a complete rework of the entire LRM mechanic and/or a complete rework of maps to include better cover and promote more short range in-fighting, there's not a whole lot to do about the situation. While at the same time there are lots of ways to mitigate the effect LRM's can have on your mech and your team.

[Apnu]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

If you are staying 1000 M back you are not going [to] get that reliable of hits. you need to be around 300-500 m away for best results.

Sounds like a flanking opportunity to me.

These events, yes, do attract flies -- that is players who game the system for maximum benefit. Its no different than the AC40+ mechs (Or the GR+PPC mechs) that show up during the normal weeknights. Those players are gaming the system for maximum benefit. Its the same cheese-balls. I expect it.

It sucks when it runs counter to what I want to bring and influence my build choice because there's a strong urge to keep up with the Joneses, but that's what reality is like in MWO.

So, one can gripe, one can join the cheese fest, or one can try to counter it. Its up to the player to decide which course of action to take.

Having said all that, this game sorely needs in game voice. PUG matches suffer greatly when you land on a team that can't cope with clouds of LRMs from the sky and are all running off in different directions. Stopping to text chat to rally the troops can be a death sentence if a spotter sees you while you're typing in chat.

[Zerberus]

I think I`m done trying to talk sense into the LRM haters or teach them things that will make their life easier.

Been trying that for over 2 years now, hasn`t worked once.

So, I`ll do it differently: For every LRM whine thread that is created, as well as every hyperbolic, factually bankrupt post in it, I will play one match with my unarmored LRM 95 Stormcrow.

If you`ve paid any attentiion at all in the last 2 years, you know exactly how to find me and how to counter me. If you haven`t or continue to play MechaOstrich and stick your head in the sand, at least your inevitable horrible horrible death to LRMs will be spectacular and take less time than usual.

"Learn to play, or melt". It`s win /win for everyone, especially when teh LRM haters start to realize that every time they complain, the boats suddenly get 3x as large and twice as common.

I strongly encourage everyone who is sick and tired of constant LRM whining to do the same. Regardless of whether you like them or not, just to somehow slowly force a stop to the the 2 years without a single day going by where some dumb **** without a clue on how to drive a mech comes to the forums soaked in tears threatening to quit the game because "Insert LRM related whine here".

Logic doesn`t work, rational thought doesn`t work, (their) AMS doesn`t work, (their) cover doesn`t work, (their) tactics don`t work, (their) team doesn`t work... Apparently the only thing these people understand is "lrms suck"... so let`s make them suck on a few themselves and show them something that DOES work

Edited by Zerberus, 17 November 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 November 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

That guy would refuse to play me on a single map sheet. Thats the problem with munchkins. They wont do anything on your terms, ever.

You would eat those words if we met on a table.

And he isn't a Munchin He is using a Stock Archer to full advantage. A Munchkin would use a Star of MY Stone Rhinos. I never bring more than one!