51 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Seriously guys, LRMs are subpar weapons and have SOOOOOOO many counters including ECM, AMS, cover, min range, and most of all NOT BEING BAD. I'm sick of reading threads about how LRMs are OP and it is impossible to fight against LRMs.

If you agree with me and think that LRMs aren't OP and people should stop whining about them please post an "LRMs are bad" the next time you see an LRM QQ thread.

[Orbit Rain]

Maybe the mods could make one sticky thread for lrm complaining and close/delete the rest of them. At least contain the incessant QQ.

[Abivard]

Depends on the threads viewpoint about LRM's any threads that re pro lrm, LRM's need buffs tend to be locked, censored or outright deleted.

LRM are OP, ruin the game or plain old LRM QQ threads are not subject to the same rules. Posting the opposite view on these threads may cause your posts to be deleted.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

"Fun" is subjective. I think it is fun to shoot and kill LRM boats using cover effectively, maybe you don't think so but I'm sure many people agree with me. Sure I find LRMs as annoying as the next person, I regularly curse having to take cover from LRMs but they are more an annoyance than anything.



I've no issue against changing the LRM mechanic, in fact I think it is long overdue for a change. This doesn't change my opinion that, as they are currently implemented, LRMs are not a good weapon.

As you stated here. The Lrm matches are pretty annoying and unfun until you kill the lrms mechs.



Most lrm threads including mine do not that that they are op. Ppl get especially annoed by excessive lrm rain which forces you to play the "be patient and moove inch by inch forard with cower" game





Many ppl will agree that this kinda game play is pretty annoying.



And why would so many ppl use lrm mechs especially during a challenge where a good match score counts if lrms are useless or a bad weapon?



And if its a bad weapon why not change the lrm Mechanic in favour to a more skill based lrm mechanic where they arent "bad"?

[pwnface]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

And if its a bad weapon why not change the lrm Mechanic in favour to a more skill based lrm mechanic where they arent "bad"?

As I've stated in the past, I'm not opposed to this at all. As LRMs currently function in MWO, they aren't overpowered.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Ppl get especially annoed by excessive lrm rain which forces you to play the "be patient and moove inch by inch forard with cower" game

Many ppl will agree that this kinda game play is pretty annoying.

I don't think it is accurate to say you need to move inch by inch or cower to fight against LRMs. You definitely shouldn't be charging across open ground or standing at the top of a hill trying to trade, but you can usually move closer while using cover. The only situations where LRMs are truly a suppressive force is when the enemy has a UAV up and that is easily countered by just shooting at it for 1 second.

[LauLiao]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

And why would so many ppl use lrm mechs especially during a challenge where a good match score counts if lrms are useless or a bad weapon?

Because their long range, target locking capability, and indirect fire allow you to tag the most enemy mechs with damage to score assists, which is the easiest way to farm the highest possible tourney score. Also, with the way LRMs spread damage you're less likely to "accidentally" kill your opponent and thereby nerf your own score with PGI's lame event formula.

Edited by LauLiao, 17 November 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Moomtazz]

Abivard, on 17 November 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Depends on the threads viewpoint about LRM's any threads that re pro lrm, LRM's need buffs tend to be locked, censored or outright deleted.

LRM are OP, ruin the game or plain old LRM QQ threads are not subject to the same rules. Posting the opposite view on these threads may cause your posts to be deleted.

LMAO right it all a big conspiracy to keep the LRaMers down!

[-Halcyon-]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Seriously guys, LRMs are subpar weapons and have SOOOOOOO many counters including ECM, AMS, cover, min range, and most of all NOT BEING BAD. I'm sick of reading threads about how LRMs are OP and it is impossible to fight against LRMs.

If you agree with me and think that LRMs aren't OP and people should stop whining about them please post an "LRMs are bad" the next time you see an LRM QQ thread.

Seriously OP, LRMs are subpar weapons individually but OP with universal shared targeting and don't have many effective counters including ECM (seen BAP recently?), AMS (holding an umbrella in a hurricane), cover (doesn't do anything on open maps or provide 360 degree protection), min range (190m. You have to be washing the guy's windshield for him), and most of all trying to find cover 24/7 with 360 degrees of protection.
I'm sick of reading threads about how LRM spam with free shared targeting isn't a problem and it is practically cake to fight against LRMs with the "countless 50 billion counters" players love to mention over and over.

If you agree with me and think that universal shared targeting makes LRMs bad and people should stop supporting how cheap they are right now please post an "Universal Shared Targeting is BAD" the next time you see a LRM R FINE L2PLAY thread.

P.S.
Complaining about complainers is about the highest form of forum irony you can achieve here. Congrats.

Edited by Halcyon201, 17 November 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[STEF_]

The amount of threads complaining about the amount of thread complaining about lrm....

IS TOO DAMN HIGH!

[orcrist86]

The only reason I click on these threads is because I drink all the
It keeps me young

[pwnface]

Halcyon201, on 17 November 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Seriously OP, LRMs are subpar weapons individually but OP with universal shared targeting and don't have many effective counters including ECM (seen BAP recently?), AMS (holding an umbrella in a hurricane), cover (doesn't do anything on open maps or provide 360 degree protection), min range (190m. You have to be washing the guy's windshield for him), and most of all trying to find cover 24/7 with 360 degrees of protection.
I'm sick of reading threads about how LRM spam with free shared targeting isn't a problem and it is practically cake to fight against LRMs with the "countless 50 billion counters" players love to mention over and over.

If you agree with me and think that universal shared targeting makes LRMs bad and people should stop supporting how cheap they are right now please post an "Universal Shared Targeting is BAD" the next time you see a LRM R FINE L2PLAY thread.

P.S.
Complaining about complainers is about the highest form of forum irony you can achieve here. Congrats.

If LRMs are so good with "universal shared targeting" why are there NO comp teams that use them? LRMs are extremely situation weapons and direct fire is just flat out BETTER. LRMs have a very low skill threshold compared to other weapons, they can make terrible players somewhat useful but have a pretty low cap on effectiveness as well. LRMs could definitely use a mechanic rework but as they currently exist, aren't really that big of a threat on the battlefield.

[Gauvan]

I don’t think a single thread is going to cut it as certain topics seem to develop a poor signal to noise ratio. You quickly get five or six folks who spend 75% of the thread arguing with each other. I think anyone posting to a thread needs to read it first and wading through page after page of what should be a private argument is asking a lot.

However, a monthly thread for hot-button topics like ECM and LRM balance would be a nice compromise. Sticky each for a month then let it drop off when the new month rolls around. Keeps things tidy without folks feeling that any new comments are buried.

[pwnface]

Gauvan, on 17 November 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

I don’t think a single thread is going to cut it as certain topics seem to develop a poor signal to noise ratio. You quickly get five or six folks who spend 75% of the thread arguing with each other. I think anyone posting to a thread needs to read it first and wading through page after page of what should be a private argument is asking a lot.

However, a monthly thread for hot-button topics like ECM and LRM balance would be a nice compromise. Sticky each for a month then let it drop off when the new month rolls around. Keeps things tidy without folks feeling that any new comments are buried.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking for official ECM / LRM balance forums that would be reset every month. If this keeps it from flooding general discussion I'm all for it. There haven't been any significant changes to ECM or LRMs recently, many of the discussions regarding them have already happened in the past.

[-Halcyon-]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

If LRMs are so good with "universal shared targeting" why are there NO comp teams that use them?

LRMs are good in solo drop queue/pug matches, and horrible with highly competitive clan matches.

Pug players:

- rarely use any communication
- don't use VOX...because for some weird reason we don't have it
- don't fight as a team, mostly because of lack of communication
- don't stick with their lances
- don't use any tactics whatsoever

Competitive clan matches do all that, mostly because they're all on ventrilo, or teamspeak, or whatever.

Yeah, I agree...LRMs aren't even an issue in the high league ladders and all that, but the majority of players aren't playing in those games.
The meat and potatoes of this game is full of solo dropping lone wolf players. That's where this issue is the strongest.

[Sjorpha]

I agree, but unfortunately people won't stop the endless complaining about LRMs because I do, so the only thing complaining in response to their complaining achieves is to double the total mass of complaints.

What we need to do is collect the "discussion" in one stickied thread and moderate people who start new threads about topics that have existing threads.

I understod from a previous moderator post that merging isn't funtioning. Well, merging isn't needed. Just close every new thread on the topic with a post like this: "Please discuss this topic in this existing thread instead_____ /closed."

That goes for BOTH positive and negative threads btw, they are equally redundant as anything you might have to say about LRMs goes perfectly well into any of the existing threads.

[Kain Demos]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

you definitely shouldn't be charging across open ground or standing at the top of a hill trying to trade,

I don't know about the hill part, I've wrecked many LRM boats doing that.

Now granted, they were "bad" LRM boats that clearly aren't running target decay and don't know how radar deprivation works because they repeatedly fired missiles at me while I PPC/Gauss their dumb stationary asses in the CT then creep back down the hill and watch the missiles impact the location I was standing at 3 seconds ago.

These type of LRM boats are more common than people think. I tend to see them on Catapults, Timberwolves, and Stormcrows the most.

The most baffling was a Stormcrow on Alpine once--the guy literally never moved so much as a meter. Every time I crested the hill to shoot him in the CT he was in the exact same spot. By the time he fired his missiles I was already on the way back down and after 4 alphas direct to his CT he was dead.

The only thing I like doing better than finding these types of LRM boats is to flank the defenseless/nearly defenseless ones that run few to no backup weapons.

Edited by Kain Thul, 17 November 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[pwnface]

Halcyon201, on 17 November 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

LRMs are good in solo drop queue/pug matches, and horrible with highly competitive clan matches.

Pug players:

- rarely use any communication
- don't use VOX...because for some weird reason we don't have it
- don't fight as a team, mostly because of lack of communication
- don't stick with their lances
- don't use any tactics whatsoever

Competitive clan matches do all that, mostly because they're all on ventrilo, or teamspeak, or whatever.

Yeah, I agree...LRMs aren't even an issue in the high league ladders and all that, but the majority of players aren't playing in those games.
The meat and potatoes of this game is full of solo dropping lone wolf players. That's where this issue is the strongest.

Games should be balanced on the merit of the mechanics and NOT on the lowest common denominator. If something can be easily overcome by something as simple as COMMUNICATION, it shouldn't be rebalanced because certain players don't want to communicate.

Kain Thul, on 17 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

I don't know about the hill part, I've wrecked many LRM boats doing that.

Now granted, they were "bad" LRM boats that clearly aren't running target decay and don't know how radar deprivation works because they repeatedly fired missiles at me while I PPC/Gauss their dumb stationary asses in the CT then creep back down the hill and watch the missiles impact the location I was standing at 3 seconds ago.

These type of LRM boats are more common than people think. I tend to see them on Catapults, Timberwolves, and Stormcrows the most.

The most baffling was a Stormcrow on Alpine once--the guy literally never moved so much as a meter. Every time I crested the hill to shoot him in the CT he was in the exact same spot. By the time he fired his missiles I was already on the way back down and after 4 alphas direct to his CT he was dead.

Hill humping and standing at the top of a hill aren't the same thing .

Edited by pwnface, 17 November 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Davegt27]

to late they already changed the game radar is not line of sight but visual sight

we have 1960's era radar rather then 31 century radar

what is needed is a true multi spectrum detection system
one that incorporates 1) magnetic detection, 2) electronic detection, 3) over obstacle radar, 4) seismic, 5) inferred. and 6) laser

a true 31st century system
that way you would not have to get your targeting from someone else

that with advanced target prioritization and multiple lock on capability would really be something

[Kiiyor]

BAH.

LRM's are never overpowered, if you know how to deal with them.

Unfortunately the best way to deal with them is to lurk behind cover.

This isn't an issue if there's only one or two boats on the opposing side, but if half their freaking team are packing LURMS, matches devolve into both teams hiding, and waiting to see who gets the most bored first and charges to their doom.

LRM's aren't overpowered. They just lead to stagnant and boring matches if they are over represented.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I felt they were fine before the BAP range increase. Now they are back to OP status. Hell took my ECM Kit for a spin this weekend and in at least half the matches where I tried to screen my team from LRMs, I might as well have saved the tonnage not mounted ECM at all. All I saw those entire matches was a big fat red "X" through my ECM. Wasn't even enjoyable to play those matches, especially since I ended up gimping my firepower to mount that ECM arm on the Kit.

What was worse was all the damn LRMs flying around each and every time I saw that X. Reminded me of Closed Beta <sigh>.

Anyway I am still hoping they revert or change things with ECM so we can get back to a much better game. Things where just a ton better when LRM boats had to actually do something aside from sitting behind a hill hitting "R" and left mouse button. Was really nice to see light mechs have roles too. TAG and NARC actually were needed, ECM screeners where needed, and LRM users had to actually venture out and Line of Sight locks of their own with TAG and NARC which also drew them out so they could actually be engaged with direct fire on an equal footing.

Magic Jesus Box my arse, game was tons better with ECM actually working as a screening tool.