45 replies to this topic

[El Moosechacho]

Can we roll back the range boots on bap yet? 360m is too damn much. Or am I the only one that thinks that's ridiculous? Maybe roll it back to 240m~200m?

[Slepnir]

No, ECM was implemented incorrectly, unt they change it BAP needs to stay as it is.

[SharpCookie]

No. Never had a problem with LRMs and still don't. ECM needed to be "balanced."

[Dont Brawl With This Atlas]

i usually play brawler as7 d dc with ecm now i dont even bring it cuz evertime im on a fight my ecm is off. Its like punishing myself and bringing extra baggage of ton

[Elizander]

I'd be nice to shave about 60m off it based on how I have to reposition myself to the back to keep ECM coverage on the team when I'm playing my light mechs.

This BAP change will probably discourage Brawler DDCs though because ECM is turned off well before you even reach SRM/ideal AC/20 range.

[aniviron]

I can live with ECM being canceled at 360m by BAP. On its own, I think it's not a terrible change overall.

I do however think that the change was made without considering the knock-on effects that this has to mechs that rely heavily on ECM. The Kitfox, SDR-5D, and RVN-3L are all pretty underwhelming now; the Kitfox and Spider in particular absolutely needed the ECM, and without being able to rely on having ECM for more than the first 2-3 minutes of the match, you're better off bringing something heavier. The 3L is significantly worse if you're a team player as well, but the people who just parked off in the distance with ER LL are pretty much unaffected. Still, at this point because the RVN-3L and AS7-D-DC took three levels of quirk category penalty in addition to the penalty just for having ECM, both mechs are now outshadowed by the other variants in their class.

[Mcgral18]

Slepnir, on 19 November 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

No, ECM was implemented incorrectly, unt they change it BAP needs to stay as it is.

I think that's fair. Perhaps change BAP to be a bit more useful at the same time.

As it stands, we have a Magic Jesus Box, and a Anti Jesus-Box Box.


What a nice information warfare setup.

[CrushLibs]

300m would be a good mix between IS and Clan SRM weapons ranges

[drtyddsdndrtchp]

Being an avid RVN-3L player and bringing ECM-BAP-NARC - it is odd to either know if its BAP or a UAV stopping your ECM. I look up for a UAV check, and suddenly there are 100 missles in the air and my mech computer is screaming INCOMING MISSLES. If the enemy mech have a BAP then your ECM mech should let the overlay of the mech carrying it an ICON or something on the HUD to let you know and can relay to your team. Its really hard to NARC or scout if they know your coming, with the leg hit boxes being so vulnerable to do a drive by now.

[MadPanda]

Only people who want the range reduced are the light-ecm noobs who run into the middle of enemy swarms and think they should live through it. No, you need to get double-gaussed to the face and die. Oh, and l2p.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

As it stands, we have a Magic Jesus Box, and a Anti Jesus-Box Box.

There are more ways to cancel ECM than there are ways to fit ECM onto a team.

Mechs with ECM are typically worse in some area, hardpoints or mod slots for example. Lesser quirks, less quirks overall.


Having a 1 to 1.5T piece of equipment that any mech can take, nullify ECM at double the radius has swung things too far in the other direction.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I agree with the OP. I actually liked it when mechs screened by ECM didn't automatically show up on the screen and we actually had to use skill to actually scan the terrain for movement to find enemies then use a little more skill to use visual ques to identify where you last damaged and enemy and were he might be vulnerable. I even enjoyed the skill it required to use a LRM boat effectively by actually having to move into line of sight and direct fire range to get my own locks. I also miss the skill involved with being good at reading the battlefield and being able to position and re-position myself to effectively cover my team, where needed, with ECM. I also miss the skill it required to use TAG and NARCs effectively to counter ECM effects and allow your LRM boats to lay waste to the enemy.

However I keep forgetting that MWO players don't want skill to be important. Instead they want bright red arrows telling them where the enemy is and to just stand back 800m behind a hill and push "R" and "left mouse" and do 1000 damage. I mean a game requiring skill actually takes effort you know and if you have to put effort into the game, how can you be stuffing your faces with Cheesy Puffs and Pizza and drinking a beer while playing at the same time?

This pretty much sums up why we have 360m BAP in the game and why people don't like ECM.

[AntharPrime]

I find it's perfect. The best place for an ECM mech is to be sniping from extreme range or just behind the main group providing ECM cover. This forces ECM enthusiasts to play with the team and we have much less lights pulling a Leroy into the main enemy force.

[kuangmk11]

ECM has be ridiculously OP forever, It deserves what it got. And bi bim bap is tasty.

[Jakob Knight]

I'd have to say it's fine as it is, with the understanding that the evaluation is based on ECM not being fine as it is. ECM simply has always been far too powerful than it was ever meant to be.

ECM was always only supposed to be a specific counter to other advanced tech such as Artemis, NARC, and BAP (though it would give away the ECM mech's presence by doing so) within its effective range only (about 180 meters), and expressly stipulated as to have no other effects whatsoever on other targeting systems. This is why it only cost 1.5 tons, 2 crits, and was always 'on' with no cost to usage. In MWO, however, it has also been given the ability to block LRMs, Streak SRMs, detection, and prevent information gaining and target lock-on, all at infinite ranges, none of which it was ever supposed to do. It, in effect, became a combination stealth system and missile nullification weapon at the same time with no additional cost in tonnage, crits, or usage penalties.

With the change in BAP, the ECM system now still functions far stronger than it was supposed to at longer ranges, but loses its effectiveness at short ranges if the enemy has equal or more BAP equipped units than the number of friendly ECM units, returning such units to their proper place on the battlefield. Scouts can still scout, but now they are no longer granted substantially and unrealistically increased protection at closer ranges. Beyond 750 meters, an ECM system is still uncounterable, so I don't see the 350 meter range as a bad thing. At least this allows missile units that may not have an energy hardpoint to avoid being totally locked down by a single light piece of equipment.

Now, if ECM were to lose its unintended and unearned abilities and be returned to the extremely limited functions it is supposed to be able to do, then I would be in favor of dropping the BAP's counter in direct proportion. However, until that happens, the current range is the best compromise between simply removing ECM from the game entirely and leaving other systems incapacitated by it that were never supposed to be affected at all. Reducing the range would provide too much of a boost to ECM units.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 19 November 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[Slepnir]

No viktor we want ECM to work like it is supposed to-removing stacking bonuses for TAG/artemis and nullifying NARC.

What we dont want is it acting like a null signature system and stealth armor all rolled into a zone of effect black hole.

That way important other things in the game like active/passive sensors could be implemented.

Sorry but I don't think anybody deserves a magic jesus box in the game. myself included.

[El Moosechacho]

kuangmk11, on 19 November 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

ECM has be ridiculously OP forever, It deserves what it got. And bi bim bap is tasty.

I can agree to this for the most part. But we have Narc, tags, and UAV's countering ECM and now 3 mechs with BAP can cover a CONSIDERABLE area to counter ECM. I'm not saying BAP should be switched back to the way it was, but 360m is just too much IMO (it's range was originally 180? HALF of what it is now? that's a pretty significant jump that still needs tuning). And if you want to keep it at 360m, I think it should only shield the mech equipped with BAP from the ECM field.

Either way, it needs some "tuning", just NOT the famous Paul Inouye "nerf-hammer" ;p

[kilgor]

BAP was originally only effective to 120m vs ECM's 180m. BAP would have been fine being bumped up to 180m. While there are many ways to counter ECM, there are fewer ways to counter those counters.

[Lynx7725]

I think it's still too early to see the full effects of a BAP ECM negate at 360m. ECM still has value now, it's riskier for the ECM user, which addresses the previous issue of low risks of ECM usage. Now it's a choice, since it forces people to consider whether it's 1.5 tons of ECM or weapons/ ammo.



The new issue is that most of the ECM carriers are lights. If the lights are off doing scouting (riiiight) or more likely, sniping, then the ECM isn't really helping the main group. If the lights tie themselves to the group and provide ECM support, then they aren't scouting. In that sense lights become more vulnerable, because they become much more predictable when tied to a group -- and still as vulnerable as other lights to DF.



ECM coverage for the main group as they close is critical for certain strategies, so forcing lights to take up the role of ECM coverage isn't ideal. We do need heavier medium and heavies that can carry ECM in the game, for both Clan and IS. Clan is getting their Loki, so they're good there, but IS is restricted to DDCs, which can be sub-optimal.

[dJellyfish]

I was already packing a BAP/CAP in a lot of my builds, so I definitely appreciate the boost... especially when an Advance Sensor Range module is equipped. However, I think it should be brought down to 270m. Right now ECM just doesn't stand a chance if two or more people are packing BAP/CAP.