47 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 November 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Some of the ClanTech should remain "slightly" more expensive than Inner Sphere Tech. The XL for instance still has only 2 side crits and although nerfed, still has that formidable advantage. But in general prices should fall quite a bit because of "The Balancing" of tech.

And don't forget, there are some pricing errors the other way as well.

Clan ECM costs the same as IS ECM but takes fewer slots and weighs less (or should...I'm not bothering to look it up). Same same with the LBX10s and Gauss Rifles. Clan tech SHOULD cost more because it's lighter, takes up fewer slots and/or has better range. No question about it there.

The question is "how much more" should it cost? Example: The Clan ERPPC does 15 points of damage like it should, it simply doesn't do it all to one spot (like it should). So, 33% of it's damage potential (5/15) is wasted on extraneous nonsense balancing. We'll start at "it should cost 33% less than it does."

The IS ERPPC weighs 7 tons and takes 3 slots. The Clan ERPPC weighs 6 tons and takes 2 slots. They have the same cooldown and heat. I'm not good with math, but I'm thinking that the Clan ERPPC should cost more than the IS ERPPC and it doesn't. Does this make sense to you?

[Apnu]

Clantech is better because the clans are supposed to be balanced by having less mechs on the field and less tonnage one-on-one. None of that exists in this game. PGI and people expect to have clans match tonnage and numbers in this game, and yet clan players expect all of the clans advantages with none of the down sides.

I'd agree with clan players if they were arguing for 10v12 matches and lower tonnage limits to balance thier better range, harder hitting, less weight weapns. To say nothing of clan battle doctrine. But I don't see those arguments from clan players. Clantech is OP by design. Since all the other TT balancing aspects hve been removed in this game, we have IS quirks in an attempt to make half the player base on the same level as clans.

The clans should be alien to the IS. I think its not a good fit to treat clan players like IS players and have a IS based economy. The clans, in the warrior caste, are more like communists and should have a different economic model from the IS. But we don't have that, and probably won't, so the only downside for the clans, besides beam duration on some weapons, is cost.

Given the number of clan players I see in the PUG underhive, they clearly have no problems with the cost of thier tech.

[Sky Hawk]

So.. why not just Clan Mechs for free? PGI has some cost-counter-algoritm.. They will it change, in the moment, when you buy the whole firm..

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

And don't forget, there are some pricing errors the other way as well.

Clan ECM costs the same as IS ECM but takes fewer slots and weighs less (or should...I'm not bothering to look it up). Same same with the LBX10s and Gauss Rifles. Clan tech SHOULD cost more because it's lighter, takes up fewer slots and/or has better range. No question about it there.

The question is "how much more" should it cost? Example: The Clan ERPPC does 15 points of damage like it should, it simply doesn't do it all to one spot (like it should). So, 33% of it's damage potential (5/15) is wasted on extraneous nonsense balancing. We'll start at "it should cost 33% less than it does."

The IS ERPPC weighs 7 tons and takes 3 slots. The Clan ERPPC weighs 6 tons and takes 2 slots. They have the same cooldown and heat. I'm not good with math, but I'm thinking that the Clan ERPPC should cost more than the IS ERPPC and it doesn't. Does this make sense to you?

Well the weight savings on most Clan ACs was around 15% IIRC, so Price them 15% more than the IS equivalent???

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 November 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[The Boz]

...because out-of-match metrics are valid in-match balancing tools.

[Willard Phule]

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

That's my entire point.

Ok, let's use the Medim Laser comparison here.

The Clan ERML is 100% more in price than the IS ML.

It does 40% more damage than the IS ML. It does 50% more heat (6 heat for Clan, 4 for IS). Although it's range is significantly farther than the IS ML, it also has a significantly longer laze time, thus insuring that it won't do it's full 7 points of damage to a single location.

And somehow this is worth twice as much as the IS Medium Laser?

[Joseph Mallan]

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

...because out-of-match metrics are valid in-match balancing tools.

We are talking cost for those In game metrics. A Dire Wolf is not worth the TT cost in this game. Not by a long shot.

[The Boz]

Ok, let's use the Medim Laser comparison here.

The LL is 250% more in price than the ML.

It does 80% more damage than the ML, 165% DPS. It does 75% more heat (7 heat for LL, 4 for ML). Although it's range is significantly farther than the ML, it also has a significantly longer laze time, thus insuring that it won't do it's full 9 points of damage to a single location. It is also one slot larger and four tonnes heavier.

And somehow this is worth two and a half times as much as the Medium Laser?

Would you like to try and compare the IS LL and C ERML next?

[Ascaloth]

Clan weapons have better range, better damage and weight less.

"But lazor beams has lunger duratiom and clam atom-cannom cant do pim pointz"

Clan mechs are supposed to be used by the best Mechwarriors for a reason, right? You can't hold a laser beam steadly? You can't fire all those AC pellets on the same place? You are not worth to pilot a Clan mech, go find an Elemental battlearmor and bury yourself inside it.

[Redshift2k5]

They still have weapons with higher damage, greater range, and lbx & ultra versions of weapons the IS doesn't have. The majority of their weapons are also smaller and lighter than IS counterparts. All of those changes result in deserving an overall higher price point, even if overall DPS is not that different. compare the IS LBX10 and ultra/5.

The Clan mech themselves are coming with Clan XL which are all kinds of superior to IS XLs, 7 slot Endo (in most mechs), 2 slot DHS, access to lighter active probes, lighter AMS, lighter ECM, targetting computers, etc. as well as omnipod swapping which produces the most ideal clan mech builds.

don't forget than the total cost of upgrading an IS mech with DHS, endo, and an XL is going to cost you roughly the same as n clan mech, just not in one single purchase.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 21 November 2014 - 05:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Redshift2k5, on 21 November 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

They still have weapons with higher damage, greater range, and lbx & ultra versions of weapons the IS doesn't have. The majority of their weapons are also smaller and lighter than IS counterparts. All of those changes result in deserving an overall higher price point, even if overall DPS is not that different. compare the IS LBX10 and ultra/5.

The Clan mech themselves are coming with Clan XL which are all kinds of superior to IS XLs, 7 slot Endo (in most mechs), 2 slot DHS, access to lighter active probes, lighter AMS, lighter ECM, targetting computers, etc. as well as omnipod swapping which produces the most ideal clan mech builds.

don't forget than the total cost of upgrading an IS mech with DHS, endo, and an XL is going to cost you roughly the same as n clan mech, just not in one single purchase.

Yup... but not AS OP as they are on TT. Not saying make em 1:1 but maybe 1.2:1 or 1.3:1.

[Lily from animove]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

True enough, however, my point is still made valid by the other "tweaks" they did to Clan tech to make them more on par with IS tech.

We'll use the LLs as the example.

Everything you said is true, however, it neglects to mention the all the other "behind the scenes" things they've done to Clan ERLLs to make them more in line with IS LLs. The laze time is longer and it generates more heat. Granted, back when they REALLY hit it with the nerf hammer it was significantly worse but even now, it's hardly worth using. There's NO WAY you can get a comparable amount of damage out of a Clan LL unless your target is stationary and you're real good at holding the laze still.

Watch any ECM Raven with 2 IS LLs and compare it to a Clan ECM light with two CERLLs. The Raven will almost always do more damage.



Ok, I didn't know about that. The original plan was to effect speed as well. Either way.

I still don't think we should be paying as much for crap that is the equivalent of IS stuff with just different cosmetics.

that raven comparison relies not only on the engines, imaien the raven woul ahve to use CERLL and the clanner would use ISLL, then a lot things would change. ISLL, are very heat efficient range weapon with a lot more PP damage than the CERLL.
light mechs without additional heatsinks are bound to their rather low heat treshold. And then heat efficiency is more important than high damage for high heat.

Quirks aside, the IS lasers are just better.

an IS LL deals 9,0 damage/second in beam duration, while it has an heat efficiency of 1,285 dmg/heat
an IS ER LL is 7,5 damage/second in beam duration, while it has an heat efficency of 1,125 dmg/heat
an C-ER LL is 7,3 damage/second in beam duration, while it has an heat efficiency of 1,100 dmg/heat

So clanners are inefficient in squeezing out damage from their heat treshold, and they are inefficient at landing this damage in pinpoint damage. And as long as IS pilots do not use that in combat, allowing a TBR to vomit and retreat for cooldown, they will always have trouble with clanners, because IS clan be the better lasermechs they can push out more damage at all if they keep the pressure on the clanners. Especially now with some chassis having really weird quirks.

basically if you take above numbers, the IS LL is kind of a lighter CLPL pulse laser version of the LL.

and why are pulselasers such a big deal atm?

Well after they got buffed:
an IS LPL is 16,4 damage/second in beam duration, while it has an heat efficency of 1,57 dmg/heat *
an C- LPL is 11,6 damage/second in beam duration, while it has an heat efficiency of 1,30 dmg/heat

* ok it will cap the damage already at 11 damage.

The Pulselasers now are extremely heat efficient, and a standard IS LL is basically a shorter ranged CLPL because both play very similar. yet the IS LL weights less.

and related to their tonnage, the 1t that clan ERLL is lighter is not what an single additonal DHS can squeeze out to make that CERLL such a big more heat efficient deal.

give clanners access to the IS LPL, and they own the world.

together with the IS quirks that some mechs have gotten for energyweapons and LPL's probably explains you why the wubshee and wubverine are uch ig deals, they are unreal beasts of heat efficiency and dps that on top of that at a very well PPoint like behavior. Not FLD; but extremely close. They partially even negate torso twisting for their opponents because of such a short beam duration.

[The Boz]

Your math is off.

[Kdogg788]

These threads really are redundant. Just the fact that clan XLs cannot be destroyed by removing one side torso is a major advantage. You can talk weapon stats all day, but just that one thing makes for a huge advantage in competitive matches where experienced players can surgically remove components including side torsos from IS mechs which regularly carry XLs.

-k

[Livewyr]

Yeah, prices are pretty bogus in a lot of ways.

[Lily from animove]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Ok, let's use the Medim Laser comparison here.

The Clan ERML is 100% more in price than the IS ML.

It does 40% more damage than the IS ML. It does 50% more heat (6 heat for Clan, 4 for IS). Although it's range is significantly farther than the IS ML, it also has a significantly longer laze time, thus insuring that it won't do it's full 7 points of damage to a single location.

And somehow this is worth twice as much as the IS Medium Laser?

ER is the reason for beign twice as expensive, One day when IS will get ER mediums, they will pay the same price and all they get is more range with more heat. and that is what counts for smalls, mediums and large lasers. Why do people only shoose an example but don't even go through the other weapons just to see if their logic is at least conistent?

[Water Bear]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

If we're paying TT prices, we should be getting TT weaponry.

That's not even true of the inner sphere equipment. Just for example, inner sphere autocannons are a hundred times better in MWO than they are on tabletop. Other IS weapons have had range adjustements, and after quirks there are several chassis that behave vastly differently than their TT equivalents.

It's true those changes all make IS equipment better (excepting ECM), though.

Edited by Water Bear, 21 November 2014 - 06:22 AM.

[That Dawg]

Sirius Drake, on 21 November 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

Not to mention that the hard Cash prices have to go down as well then.
So it will never happen.

theres a reason the largest discount store is making millions each week.
lower the price, and they would sell more....
ask anyone who ever spent a HUNDRED dollars cause they thought they were saving 20!!!

I can't begin to guess how many 14.00 packs I bought here over the year or two. ..when I know full well, I should just spend 40-50 and get a better deal...

and the OP is spot on.

[Sirius Drake]

That Dawg, on 21 November 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

theres a reason the largest discount store is making millions each week.
lower the price, and they would sell more....
ask anyone who ever spent a HUNDRED dollars cause they thought they were saving 20!!!

I can't begin to guess how many 14.00 packs I bought here over the year or two. ..when I know full well, I should just spend 40-50 and get a better deal...

and the OP is spot on.

LoL true enough.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 November 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Well the weight savings on most Clan ACs was around 15% IIRC, so Price them 15% more than the IS equivalent???

Give or take any obvious adjustments for "nerfing" if there are any. As an example, the IS UAC5 does 5 points to whatever each projectile hits. If the guy is lucky enough and the target is oblivious, it could theoretically do 10 points to a single location. The CUAC5 fires 3 projectiles for every 5 points of damage it does ( I think..whatever, it's good enough for example). That's 3.33 points per projectile for 10 projectiles. Although theoretically possible, it's unlikely you're going to put those 10 points into a single location.

The question is, how much is that worth expressed as a percentage? We all agree that it is more difficult to do damage with the CUAC5 than it is the UAC5, the primary difference is that the Clans have different flavors of UACs. Me, I'd try to keep it simple. The UAC5 fires 2 shots for 10 points. The CUAC5 fires 6. 2 divided by 6 is .33, or 33%, or 1/3. 1/3 of 15 is 5. 15-5= 10.

So, the answer is 10%. The CUAC5 should cost 10% more due to it's weight, space or range bonus that it has over the UAC5.

I mean, I could transfer the chart on http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment to a spreadsheet and do the math for everything, I'm pretty sure it'd work out about the same if you just use a common sense comparison.