47 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

That got your attention, didn't it?

I wasn't referring to any nerfs or tweaks or anything, I'm referring to the cost of Clantech. Bear with me and if you're not familiar with 'mech creation rules from BT, you'll understand where I'm going with this.

When the Clans were first released back in June, it was determined that Clantech was overpowered in comparison to IS tech, so everything got beat with Paul's nerfhammer until they were close to the damage output the IS could achieve.

CERPPCs were designed so they would do 10 points to where it hits and another 2.5 points to the sections closest to the point of impact. CUACs were designed to spit out multiple projectiles instead of a single one, to spread the damage over multiple areas. CLRMs were designed to come out the same way for the same reason.

The Clan XL engine, which is the most expensive engine up to this point in the timeline, has been "adjusted" to give the correct penalties for losing a ST...heat increase and speed reduction were added, and although there aren't comparative penalties for Standard Engines, it is what it is.

What's the point of all of this?

The prices in the mechlab are on par with what the prices are in TT, give or take. Those prices are for technology that's supposed to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than anything the IS has. Unfortunately, that's not what we're paying full price for.

So, can we PLEASE take a look at the Clantech and determine a percentage of how everything has been toned down (say, 30% or so) and adjust the prices to reflect this? As it is, we're paying way more than things are worth just to say we're in a Clan mech. By the time Paul is done beating everything with his football bat, we'll be paying double the price for a TTK equivalent of IS tech.

[theta123]

I like this. And i used to be a Full IS nay-saying against clanner player

Also atrention should be paid to the warhawk, Nova & summoner. Its clearly these mechs need some help. With the nova being priority

[Lily from animove]

I hardly care about the c-bills, compared to how the clanmechs need balance. the balance of the clans lies within the chassis, not the weapons. and clan ERML is still better in range and damage and so more expensive.

[Sirius Drake]

I am saying that since month.
Absolutly with you on that topic.
Not to mention that the hard Cash prices have to go down as well then.
So it will never happen.

[Willard Phule]

Lily from animove, on 21 November 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

I hardly care about the c-bills, compared to how the clanmechs need balance. the balance of the clans lies within the chassis, not the weapons. and clan ERML is still better in range and damage and so more expensive.

The IS Medium Laser is 80,000 cbills. The Clan ER Medium Laser is 160,000 cbills. TWICE the amount of money to purchase. Why is it that it isn't the equivalent of anything even approaching something twice as good as the IS Medium Laser? Both weigh 1 ton and take 1 slot. The Clan version reaches a bit further and does 2 more points of damage IF you can hold the laze long enough for it to count.

Now, granted, there are imbalances the other direction as well. Both the Clan and IS ERPPC cost the same but the CERPPC does 2.5 points of damage to adjoining locations. Both the Clan and IS LBX10s and Gauss Rifles cost the same but Clan weaponry is supposed to either weigh less, take fewer slots and/or have further range. Either way, the Clan equipment SHOULD be more expensive than IS equipment.

The only question is "how much more should it cost?" If we're paying TT prices, we should be getting TT weaponry. The point is to determine the percentage of damage that has been lost due to Paul's beating them with his Hockey Racket and reduce the price by the same amount.

And, granted, you had a point there as well. Clan FF and Clan Endo Steel only take 7 slots as opposed to the Inner Sphere's 14. That, coupled with equipment taking fewer slots and weighing less, makes a huge difference. And THAT is an understandable expense.

As for not caring how much it costs, I understand your position. Keep in mind that I am exclusively a Solo Queue player which makes me officially a piece of crap to be ignored. I refuse to join a unit so I can play in the Group queue. Cost matters to me....unfortunately, I simply don't matter to PGI....and neither do any of the other people in the Solo Queue, including the new players. It is what it is.

Edited by Willard Phule, 21 November 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

The IS Medium Laser is 80,000 cbills. The Clan ER Medium Laser is 160,000 cbills. TWICE the amount of money to purchase. Why is it that it isn't the equivalent of anything even approaching something twice as good as the IS Medium Laser? Both weigh 1 ton and take 1 slot. The Clan version reaches a bit further and does 2 more points of damage IF you can hold the laze long enough for it to count.

Now, granted, there are imbalances the other direction as well. Both the Clan and IS ERPPC cost the same but the CERPPC does 2.5 points of damage to adjoining locations. Both the Clan and IS LBX10s and Gauss Rifles cost the same but Clan weaponry is supposed to either weigh less, take fewer slots and/or have further range. Either way, the Clan equipment SHOULD be more expensive than IS equipment.

And, granted, you had a point there as well. Clan FF and Clan Endo Steel only take 7 slots as opposed to the Inner Sphere's 14. That, coupled with equipment taking fewer slots and weighing less, makes a huge difference. And THAT is an understandable expense.

As for not caring how much it costs, I understand your position. Keep in mind that I am exclusively a Solo Queue player which makes me officially a piece of crap to be ignored. I refuse to join a unit so I can play in the Group queue. Cost matters to me....unfortunately, I (and none of the other Solo Queue players) simply don't matter to PGI. It is what it is.

your logic is strange, because try to apply your IS ML and CERML comparison on the IS LL and IS ERLL. the ER version is simply twice as expensive. Itsnot about clan vs IS; ist simply the fact that the one laser is an ER version of the other.

ER differs by: +100% price + 50% range.

PGI simply took the TT values and doubled them, because a CERLL is as expensive as an IS ERLL. and all the lasers currently are at twice the TT price. So when the IS would get an IS ERML they would also have to pay TWICE AS MUCH. and yet those would not have the better damage.
The prices are not about IS vs clan and the tech advantage, the price difference comes simply by the ER prefix. But I would kill for getting some IS ML looted from the battlefield then you people would see that IS Lasers are a way better deal, but not because they are IS lasers, they are the better deal because they don't come with the ER heat penalty. clanners not having access to the regular lasers is their big disadvantage, because those lasers are heat inefficient within MWO where you not very often can make use of the range advantage. Not having even spoken about beamduration. On top of that its one of the reasons why clanlights suck, they only cna use overhated lasers. Would clanlights be able to use non ER medium lasers, they would be a lot better.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 November 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[TheMadTypist]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

The Clan XL engine, which is the most expensive engine up to this point in the timeline, has been "adjusted" to give the correct penalties for losing a ST...heat increase and speed reduction were added, and although there aren't comparative penalties for Standard Engines, it is what it is.

No speed reduction was added. Only destruction of heatsinks, and even then only on the distruction of a section that contains engine crits, not on critically hitting the engine crits within that ST before it is destroyed. In that manner it is absolutely on par with a Standard engine of the same rating- you don't lose heat sinks until the section is destroyed, but getting destroyed loses the 'mech anyway- while being half the weight, and most clan designs would not be so significantly improved by the ability to popsicle stick around the map that it would be worth taking such a chunk out of the pod space. They also remain flatly superior to the IS XL engine of the same rating, which costs the same.

That said, purchasing an IS 'mech with an XL engine means you get both the 'mech, and the engine. You can pull it out and do with it what you please, where the Clan 'mech doesn't allow you to pull the engine and use it elsewhere. That alone makes me think clan XL's should factor into the price of a clan 'Mech at the going c-bill rate of an IS STD, because while superior in function the fact you can't do with the engine what you like reduces the value you're getting out of it. It's not a 'mech/engine combo deal, it's a 'mech that comes with tonnage and speed fixed onto it. The price of Omnipods and weapon systems still means clan mechs would be expensive, but it would take a chunk of change off that price tag - 3,060,000 off of 'mechs using a 300 rated engine, 3,570,000 off of 'mechs using a 350 rated engine (like the SMN), 3,672,000 off of 'mechs using a 360 rated engine (like the Ice Ferret) and 3,825,000 of 'mechs with a 375 engine (like the Timberwolf).

That's roughly 25% off of the current C-bill pricing that clans get for 'mechs like the Summoner or Timberwolf.

[Lily from animove]

TheMadTypist, on 21 November 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

No speed reduction was added. Only destruction of heatsinks, and even then only on the distruction of a section that contains engine crits, not on critically hitting the engine crits within that ST before it is destroyed. In that manner it is absolutely on par with a Standard engine of the same rating- you don't lose heat sinks until the section is destroyed, but getting destroyed loses the 'mech anyway- while being half the weight, and most clan designs would not be so significantly improved by the ability to popsicle stick around the map that it would be worth taking such a chunk out of the pod space. They also remain flatly superior to the IS XL engine of the same rating, which costs the same.

That said, purchasing an IS 'mech with an XL engine means you get both the 'mech, and the engine. You can pull it out and do with it what you please, where the Clan 'mech doesn't allow you to pull the engine and use it elsewhere. That alone makes me think clan XL's should factor into the price of a clan 'Mech at the going c-bill rate of an IS STD, because while superior in function the fact you can't do with the engine what you like reduces the value you're getting out of it. It's not a 'mech/engine combo deal, it's a 'mech that comes with tonnage and speed fixed onto it. The price of Omnipods and weapon systems still means clan mechs would be expensive, but it would take a chunk of change off that price tag - 3,060,000 off of 'mechs using a 300 rated engine, 3,570,000 off of 'mechs using a 350 rated engine (like the SMN), 3,672,000 off of 'mechs using a 360 rated engine (like the Ice Ferret) and 3,825,000 of 'mechs with a 375 engine (like the Timberwolf).

That's roughly 25% off of the current C-bill pricing that clans get for 'mechs like the Summoner or Timberwolf.

but isn't clantech engine not already more cheap? because you pay X money for an engine you use. Unless in the IS, where yo probably throw the engine away since you nevr use it and so its dead money. Sure you CAN swap them into other chassis, but most IS builds don't use the same XL size. And by this IS mechsperimenting gets quite superexpensive soon for things you may never use again..

[Sirius Drake]

Lily from animove, on 21 November 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

but isn't clantech engine not already more cheap? because you pay X money for an engine you use. Unless in the IS, where yo probably throw the engine away since you nevr use it and so its dead money. Sure you CAN swap them into other chassis, but most IS builds don't use the same XL size. And by this IS mechsperimenting gets quite superexpensive soon for things you may never use again..

Belive me we would love to be able to swap engines.

[The Boz]

I would gladly pay a million CB for a 1-slot 1-ton laser with 10x the damage of Medium Laser.


This thread is ******.

[Lily from animove]

Sirius Drake, on 21 November 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

Belive me we would love to be able to swap engines.

sure we would, but saying our engines should be cheaper because they are fixed is not really a correct argument.
ooops, my engine size is 5 over the one I can use wiht that weapon build. Let em just spend 4 MILLION to test this build with the other engine.

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

I would gladly pay a million CB for a 1-slot 1-ton laser with 10x the damage of Medium Laser.


This thread is ******.

would you still buy it when the heat is 10x higher and its beam duration?

you comment deservers the same amount of stars as your last word. Which funnily turns your signature into an entire manifestation of irony.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 November 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 21 November 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

That got your attention, didn't it?

I wasn't referring to any nerfs or tweaks or anything, I'm referring to the cost of Clantech. Bear with me and if you're not familiar with 'mech creation rules from BT, you'll understand where I'm going with this.

When the Clans were first released back in June, it was determined that Clantech was overpowered in comparison to IS tech, so everything got beat with Paul's nerfhammer until they were close to the damage output the IS could achieve.

CERPPCs were designed so they would do 10 points to where it hits and another 2.5 points to the sections closest to the point of impact. CUACs were designed to spit out multiple projectiles instead of a single one, to spread the damage over multiple areas. CLRMs were designed to come out the same way for the same reason.

The Clan XL engine, which is the most expensive engine up to this point in the timeline, has been "adjusted" to give the correct penalties for losing a ST...heat increase and speed reduction were added, and although there aren't comparative penalties for Standard Engines, it is what it is.

What's the point of all of this?

The prices in the mechlab are on par with what the prices are in TT, give or take. Those prices are for technology that's supposed to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than anything the IS has. Unfortunately, that's not what we're paying full price for.

So, can we PLEASE take a look at the Clantech and determine a percentage of how everything has been toned down (say, 30% or so) and adjust the prices to reflect this? As it is, we're paying way more than things are worth just to say we're in a Clan mech. By the time Paul is done beating everything with his football bat, we'll be paying double the price for a TTK equivalent of IS tech.

Some of the ClanTech should remain "slightly" more expensive than Inner Sphere Tech. The XL for instance still has only 2 side crits and although nerfed, still has that formidable advantage. But in general prices should fall quite a bit because of "The Balancing" of tech.

[Willard Phule]

Lily from animove, on 21 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

your logic is strange, because try to apply your IS ML and CERML comparison on the IS LL and IS ERLL. the ER version is simply twice as expensive. Itsnot about clan vs IS; ist simply the fact that the one laser is an ER version of the other.

ER differs by: +100% price + 50% range.

PGI simply took the TT values and doubled them, because a CERLL is as expensive as an IS ERLL. and all the lasers currently are at twice the TT price. So when the IS would get an IS ERML they would also have to pay TWICE AS MUCH. and yet those would not have the better damage.
The prices are not about IS vs clan and the tech advantage, the price difference comes simply by the ER prefix. But I would kill for getting some IS ML looted from the battlefield then you people would see that IS Lasers are a way better deal, but not because they are IS lasers, they are the better deal because they don't come with the ER heat penalty. clanners not having access to the regular lasers is their big disadvantage, because those lasers are heat inefficient within MWO where you not very often can make use of the range advantage. Not having even spoken about beamduration. On top of that its one of the reasons why clanlights suck, they only cna use overhated lasers. Would clanlights be able to use non ER medium lasers, they would be a lot better.

True enough, however, my point is still made valid by the other "tweaks" they did to Clan tech to make them more on par with IS tech.

We'll use the LLs as the example.

Everything you said is true, however, it neglects to mention the all the other "behind the scenes" things they've done to Clan ERLLs to make them more in line with IS LLs. The laze time is longer and it generates more heat. Granted, back when they REALLY hit it with the nerf hammer it was significantly worse but even now, it's hardly worth using. There's NO WAY you can get a comparable amount of damage out of a Clan LL unless your target is stationary and you're real good at holding the laze still.

Watch any ECM Raven with 2 IS LLs and compare it to a Clan ECM light with two CERLLs. The Raven will almost always do more damage.

TheMadTypist, on 21 November 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

No speed reduction was added. Only destruction of heatsinks, and even then only on the distruction of a section that contains engine crits, not on critically hitting the engine crits within that ST before it is destroyed. In that manner it is absolutely on par with a Standard engine of the same rating- you don't lose heat sinks until the section is destroyed, but getting destroyed loses the 'mech anyway- while being half the weight, and most clan designs would not be so significantly improved by the ability to popsicle stick around the map that it would be worth taking such a chunk out of the pod space. They also remain flatly superior to the IS XL engine of the same rating, which costs the same.

That said, purchasing an IS 'mech with an XL engine means you get both the 'mech, and the engine. You can pull it out and do with it what you please, where the Clan 'mech doesn't allow you to pull the engine and use it elsewhere. That alone makes me think clan XL's should factor into the price of a clan 'Mech at the going c-bill rate of an IS STD, because while superior in function the fact you can't do with the engine what you like reduces the value you're getting out of it. It's not a 'mech/engine combo deal, it's a 'mech that comes with tonnage and speed fixed onto it. The price of Omnipods and weapon systems still means clan mechs would be expensive, but it would take a chunk of change off that price tag - 3,060,000 off of 'mechs using a 300 rated engine, 3,570,000 off of 'mechs using a 350 rated engine (like the SMN), 3,672,000 off of 'mechs using a 360 rated engine (like the Ice Ferret) and 3,825,000 of 'mechs with a 375 engine (like the Timberwolf).

That's roughly 25% off of the current C-bill pricing that clans get for 'mechs like the Summoner or Timberwolf.

Ok, I didn't know about that. The original plan was to effect speed as well. Either way.

I still don't think we should be paying as much for crap that is the equivalent of IS stuff with just different cosmetics.

[Mawai]

From the perspective of playing MWO you are probably correct that clan pricing could use an adjustment.

However, the clan pricing from TT or MWO really has nothing to do with effectiveness. You cited TT as the source for the pricing. Keep in mind that at this part of the timeline, clan tech is extremely limited beyond the clans ... it is based on salvage of clan mechs in the rare engagements when they lost or when salvage was possible. I think the pricing in TT reflects the rarity factor in addition to the effectiveness. TT used battle value to balance the mechs in a match ... the cbills were part of the roleplaying game system providing limits in a campaign by IS forces on acquiring clan technology. Keep in mind that clanners did not have cbills and did not pay for their mechs.

So ... when assessing what to charge in MWO for clan mechs you pretty much have to toss out value arguments and look at it more as a rarity factor.

Finally, so many people have already purchased clan mechs at the current prices that I can't see PGI ever reducing them since it would likely cause a lot of disgruntled players. I think the best you can expect will be on-going sales from time to time (like the 45% cbill reduction on the Stormcrow a while back ... I bought 3).

[The Boz]

OK, it looks like I'll have to walk you through the logic here... Why is the Medium Laser nearly four times the cost of a Small Laser if it isn't four times better? Is the Large Laser three times better than a Medium Laser? Oh, wait, the LL is FOUR TONS HEAVIER? Hmm... Wait... what if we go... like... halfway between the stats of an ML and LL... for the size and weight of an ML?

[Willard Phule]

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

I would gladly pay a million CB for a 1-slot 1-ton laser with 10x the damage of Medium Laser.


This thread is ******.

Me too!

Let's see...IS Medium laser is 5 damage.....Clan ER Medium is 7 damage....multiply the X factor by a watermelon, carry the zero......

Nope, 7 isn't 100 times 5, no matter how you try to do it.

Sorry man. Hey, let me know when they DO release a 1 ton, 1 slot weapon that does 500 damage. I really, REALLY want one of those.

Your math skills are *******.

[Sirius Drake]

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

OK, it looks like I'll have to walk you through the logic here... Why is the Medium Laser nearly four times the cost of a Small Laser if it isn't four times better? Is the Large Laser three times better than a Medium Laser? Oh, wait, the LL is FOUR TONS HEAVIER? Hmm... Wait... what if we go... like... halfway between the stats of an ML and LL... for the size and weight of an ML?

And here i sit and thought i am an awfull Troll.

[The Boz]

OK, give me the universal CB cost of a single tonslotsizedamagerangehit.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Boz, on 21 November 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

OK, give me the universal CB cost of a single tonslotsizedamagerangehit.

No such thing! Silly man.

[The Boz]

That's my entire point.