107 replies to this topic

[James Pryde IIC]

if you go further forward in time to about 3085-3090, Clan Ghost Bear fully integrates with the Rasalhauge Dominion, forming the Rasalhauge Dominion

[Aethon]

Petroff Northrup, on 26 June 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Staunch Hell's Horses Warden the Inner Sphere needs to be taught how they are wrong, not slaughtered needlessly, the clans teach to not waste and look at how many lives were thrown away when the clans invaded, connecting peacefully with the IS as the Ghost Bears, Snow Ravens, and Sea Foxes eventually did is the right way to go, from there we will have more numbers, learn their style of warfare, and close suply lines from which we can attack Terra and seize if from the true enemies of Kerensky's children COMSTAR!

I am a Warden as well; good to see another hoss...and a Warden, at that.

[James Pryde IIC]

OOC for the sake of the timeline, I am more Crusader in this game, usually I am pretty neutral, and I appreciate the lower castes n be nice to them, for the sake of a happy Clan:)

[Jaroth Corbett]

Taigen, on 30 June 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Clan Ghost Bear did not join an IS house, they only consolidated their conquered space by moving their entire Clan into their occupation zone and renamed their occupation zone into Ghost Bear Dominion. A good move on their part, considering it has been a logistical nightmare for all invading Clans to keep their occupation zones well supplied. They still remained loyal to the Clans and still keep their seat in the Grand Council.

The Clan that betrayed the Clans and joined IS was Clan Nova Cat, not Ghost Bear. Even the Nova Cat's move was a controversial one, since it was a one sided decision by their elderly Khans and not a Clan wide decision. The Khans did not even call for a vote by the bloodnamed warriors, but simply changed side overnight and died shortly after, leaving behind an abjured Clan in a shocked and chaotic condition.

@CCC Dober: Interesting theory, makes me think maybe the Nova cat Khan was also corrupted and a comstar double agent , just like Ulric Kerensky. Both Khans sabotaged their own Clans , ulric almost managed to destroy Clan Wolf on top of sabotaging the invasion while being ilkhan. Eventhough I dislike Vlad Ward's antics, at least he is a true Wolf, thanks to Vlad Ward, Clan Wolf was saved from destruction and could make a come back.

Ahh the fun of conspiracy theory

Quite right which leads me to.....

JAMESPRYDE, on 30 June 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

if you go further forward in time to about 3085-3090, Clan Ghost Bear fully integrates with the Rasalhauge Dominion, forming the Rasalhauge Dominion

It was less of an integration & more of an absorption. The Draconis Combine LET the Nova Cats in. They did not have the Cats ruling them. Big difference.

JAMESPRYDE, on 30 June 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

OOC for the sake of the timeline, I am more Crusader in this game, usually I am pretty neutral, and I appreciate the lower castes n be nice to them, for the sake of a happy Clan:)

I am a Crusader first & foremost because reading the lore of the Clans, the Wardens ideal/philosophy/premise is illogical & thus flawed. It is based on a pre-condition that was NEVER fulfilled. (challenge me on that Wardens, I dare you!)

Also you can be a Trueborn & not be an *******. The Smoke jaguars were extreme but if you appreciate the lore you would understand what the Founder said:



A Clan is a pyramid & yes the Warriors are the apex but even so, a pyramid is like a house, it is only as good as its foundation. From a RP aspect, I appreciate everyone in a Clan because we all need each other to function. I do not look down on other castes & I definitely do no look down on freeborns. A man had coitus with a woman & made the Great Father, Aleksandr Kerensky who in turn had coitus with a woman who bore him the Founder, Nicholas. The Clans owe everything to two freebirths. That we should look down on them now is ludicrous.

Trueborns were a means to an end. Nicholas with his long term vision, realized the polulace could not sustain itself with regular coitus & needed the creation of the "iron wombs".



If you as a warrior think you are so superior to a someone from a lower caste & want to scorn them, read up on Ravill Pryde & find out what happened to him. Every caste has a part to play.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 30 June 2012 - 06:20 AM.

[Aethon]

A Crusader trying to convince Wardens that we are wrong, and should be Crusaders, is like a Republican trying to convince a bunch of Democrats that they are wrong, and should be Republicans. Warden vs. Crusader is an age-old argument, and it is based on each warrior's interpretations of The Remembrance, among other things. This decision is generally made a LONG time ago; you might as well try to dislodge 5 RCT's from a Castle Brian.

Also, the Dem/Rep reference is just that: a reference. I'm not trying to call Crusaders Republicans, etc.

Edited by Aethon, 30 June 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

No it is nothing like that. I have proof to back my position. You do not. I go by what was said. You go by what you think was meant by what was said. You have no argument. If you wish to go into details, please say so & I will gladly provide them.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 30 June 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Bloodweaver]

Aethon, on 30 June 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

A Crusader trying to convince Wardens that we are wrong, and should be Crusaders, is like... [trying] to dislodge 5 RCT's from a Castle Brian.

A Goliath Scorpion might very well say that this is not only possible, but in fact necessary and even destined

How ironic that he would claim Warden mentality.

[Aethon]

Jaroth Winson, on 30 June 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

No it is nothing like that. I have proof to back my position. You do not. I go by what was said. You go by what you think was meant by what was said. You have no argument. If you wish to go into details, please say so & I will gladly provide them.

...or so you think. I'm not about to get into a political argument on the internet, real or fictional, lol. I'm of the Warden persuasion, and that's that.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Aethon, on 01 July 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

...or so you think.

The proof is there is black & white.

Quote

I'm not about to get into a political argument on the internet, real or fictional, lol. I'm of the Warden persuasion, and that's that.

That is the point. There is NO argument. Wardens have NOTHING to back up their position. This is nothing personal, it is simply a matter of fact.

[BlazeKaiser]

JAMESPRYDE, on 30 June 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

if you go further forward in time to about 3085-3090, Clan Ghost Bear fully integrates with the Rasalhauge Dominion, forming the Rasalhauge Dominion

It was around 3100 that the Ghost Bear Dominion assimilated the last Free Rasalhague Republic worlds and became the Rasalhague Dominion.

Sorta the only working Clan-IS territory. Others are clan OR IS.

[Aethon]

Jaroth Winson, on 01 July 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

The proof is there is black & white.


That is the point. There is NO argument. Wardens have NOTHING to back up their position. This is nothing personal, it is simply a matter of fact.

I have my mech and my skill; I need nothing more to back up my position.

That said, you seem to want an answer as to why I prefer the Warden side of the debate, since you are trying to win an argument in which I never participated. I have a few minutes, and this is an interesting topic, so I will play ball while I wait for my pasta to boil.

First off, I consider myself a moderate Warden; while I believe that the people of the Inner Sphere are to be protected, I do agree that deliverance from the tyranny imposed upon them by some of their leaders will require military action. I do not believe, however, that EVERY state in the Inner Sphere should be 'liberated' without question. The bandit kingdoms, and any oppressive realms should be carefully liberated, but any realm that grants its citizens true freedom should not be needlessly engaged; rather, these states should be invited to join the reincarnated Star League as participants and member states. The benefits of membership to the people of that state, as well as its leaders, will be encouragement enough to join.

Alternatively, simply steamrolling every government in the Inner Sphere will lead to anarchy, interruption of services and trade that the common people require, and will erase certain governments that some of these people have built from the ground up to suit their needs. This would cause undue strife to the people of the Inner Sphere, and that was NOT the intention of the Star League OR the man who led the Exodus.

Consider the reason for the Exodus, the intentions of Aleksandr Kerensky, and his belief that we should be a beacon of hope to the masses of the Inner Sphere; it is difficult to be a beacon of hope when one approaches with his weapon drawn. However, if we protect the people of the Inner Sphere, while letting our actions speak for us, we can truly become that beacon of hope, an inspiration to the Inner Sphere.

I give you the following message for consideration, the sender of which should be obvious:

"Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.

"Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.

"Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.

"Farewell."

Those are not the words of a conqueror, or someone who would wish a great war upon the whole of the Inner Sphere. It is Kerensky himself...the man AND his actions throughout his life...which gives me cause to respect the Warden philosophy.

I am not trying to 'convert' anyone to my point of view, and I expect many to find what they believe are flaws in my decision; however, at this point, it truly is a matter of opinion, since Aleksandr Kerensky is not here to provide a definitive answer as to the intention of his words.

Therefore, while I respect your choice, I must agree to disagree.

Bloodweaver, on 30 June 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

A Goliath Scorpion might very well say that this is not only possible, but in fact necessary and even destined

Anything is possible; my point was that it would not be possible without a cost vastly disproportionate to the value of the goal. Such waste is not the way of the Clans.

[Squidhead Jax]

buckaroo, on 26 June 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

That's because they don't have to. Out of the hundreds of regiments of mechs in the IS, only a few dozen were involved with Operation Bulldog and Task Force Serpent.

And we only went to all that trouble because you distracted us from killing each other.

True enough.

I'm kinda sad that nobody called me on the ridiculous hypocrisy of my earlier claim

[Bloodweaver]

Aethon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Anything is possible; my point was that it would not be possible without a cost vastly disproportionate to the value of the goal. Such waste is not the way of the Clans.

No, Warden, we must not waste. But if one allows a man to commit murder, in spite of his own ability to forcefully disable the murderer before he acts, simply because he does not wish to become a murderer himself - is he not just as guilty as the man who does the actual killing? He had all the tools to prevent the attack, but did not use them. For him to then say he is innocent is myopic and self-ingratiating. It is little more than an excuse for selfishness and cowardice.

There is an old Terran saying, "evil prevails when good men fail to act." As I said earlier, darkness requires no active participation to spread. Call that darkness by whatever name you prefer -evil, corruption, contamination, disharmony- the principle and the phenomenon remain the same. Mankind does not perform evil acts because of evil men, it does so because by nature men are imperfect. Malintent is not a necessary prerequisite for chaos to emerge. It will do so on its own, by the very nature of mankind and even of the universe itself, unless there are brave souls who stand in its path and beat it back into submission. Day after day after day. And this is the position that remains desperately vacant in the Sphere today. There is no guard against the evil that man breeds. For that is what happens - evil does not "consume" men, it emerges from them. Unless they have a beacon guiding them, showing them how (and sometimes forcing them) to subjugate it, a hope to which they can aspire. A Way.

The resources and the lives of the Inner Sphere will be spent, with or without our involvement. To absolve ourselves of guilt because our own hands were not on the triggers that caused the fields to burn, is solipsistic. It necessitates a self-involvement to the point of veritable cognitive dissonance. We have the tools to prevent the Sphere from collapsing in on itself - the technology, the culture, and, most importantly, the will bursting from our hearts and the focus to channel it. For us to refuse to carry these to the place they are most needed, when they are most needed, is tantamount to telling those of the Sphere that they should extinguish themselves. For this is what will occur. There are only three possible paths from here:

First. We leave the Sphere alone, and it continues to devolve into barbarism and hedonism, only worsening until it one day destroys itself. This is unacceptable. What is more, it is despicable. For all eternity we would be left asking ourselves if we could not have prevented such a tragedy, and for all eternity will be forced to wander the stars with an answer found in none of them. Forever. And our only consolation available will be, "at least we didn't kill them ourselves."

Second. We invade the Sphere, but it refuses to learn from the lessons we had to accept, and resists us to the point of annihilation. This too would be despicable. But, it would allow us our answer to the question that would have otherwise plagued us for the rest of our existence. We would know for a fact that those in the Sphere were incurable. And in knowing that, we could also know that there was no loss in wiping them out. Unfortunate, tragic in fact. But existence is filled with such undeniable misfortunes. This is what makes mankind special; he alone has the ability to carve glory from the field of misfortunes and despair. To cut out that which plagues, and cultivate that which nurtures. One would hope that there are at least some in the Sphere who can learn from us. I believe there are many. But if there are not, IF the Sphere is solely populated with deviants so entrenched in their horrid ways that they refuse to accept anything else, why should they be allowed to exist? And not only exist, but to occupy our one true home, Terra? Should its soil not be given the chance to wash their polluted blood from its banks, and be allowed to thus grow life anew?

Third, and this is where our sights must be set. We invade the Sphere, and once its inhabitants see how superior our technology is, they begin to question whether or not our ways may be superior as well. They see our complete devotion to battle, but also see how it is so fully balanced against a minimal amount of battle. They see that we were able to carve out strong, undeterred societies and values from a few hundred people landing on planets that could hardly provide food and shelter for them. And how we not only survived, but flourished, creating new technology and new ways of thought despite our exile. Those who say we should come into the Sphere and attempt this with words fail to understand human nature. By telling the realms of the Sphere that improvement -nay, salvation- is preferable, you are also telling them that it is optional. That their own ways are just as valid as our own. If this were true, we could have survived the Exodus without changing our ways. The salvation we bring is only optional to those who do not know what is good for them. And so we must carry our message with arms as well as tongues, for there will always be those who choose to plug their ears.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 01 July 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[Aethon]

Bloodweaver, on 01 July 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

No, Warden, we must not waste. But if one allows a man to commit murder, in spite of his own ability to forcefully disable the murderer before he acts, simply because he does not wish to become a murderer himself - is he not just as guilty as the man who does the actual killing? He had all the tools to prevent the attack, but did not use them. For him to then say he is innocent is myopic and self-ingratiating. It is little more than an excuse for selfishness and cowardice.

There is an old Terran saying, "evil prevails when good men fail to do nothing." As I said earlier, darkness requires no active participation to spread. Call that darkness by whatever name you prefer -evil, corruption, contamination, disharmony- the principle and the phenomenon remain the same. Mankind does not perform evil acts because of evil men, it does so because by nature men are imperfect. Malintent is not a necessary prerequisite for chaos to emerge. It will do so on its own, by the very nature of mankind and even of the universe itself, unless there are brave souls who stand in its path and beat it back into submission. Day after day after day. And this is the position that remains desperately vacant in the Sphere today. There is no guard against the evil that man breeds. For that is what happens - evil does not "consume" men, it emerges from them. Unless they have a beacon guiding them, showing them how (and sometimes forcing them) to subjugate it, a hope to which they can aspire. A Way.

The resources and the lives of the Inner Sphere will be spent, with or without our involvement. To absolve ourselves of guilt because our own hands were not on the triggers that caused the fields to burn, is solipsistic. It necessitates a self-involvement to the point of veritable cognitive dissonance. We have the tools to prevent the Sphere from collapsing in on itself - the technology, the culture, and, most importantly, the will bursting from our hearts and the focus to channel it. For us to refuse to carry these to the place they are most needed, when they are most needed, is tantamount to telling those of the Sphere that they should extinguish themselves. For this is what will occur. There are only three possible paths from here:

First. We leave the Sphere alone, and it continues to devolve into barbarism and hedonism, only worsening until it one day destroys itself. This is unacceptable. What is more, it is despicable. For all eternity we would be left asking ourselves if we could not have prevented such a tragedy, and for all eternity will be forced to wander the stars with an answer found in none of them. Forever. And our only consolation available will be, "at least we didn't kill them ourselves."

Second. We invade the Sphere, but it refuses to learn from the lessons we had to accept, and resists us to the point of annihilation. This too would be despicable. But, it would allow us our answer to the question that would have otherwise plagued us for the rest of our existence. We would know for a fact that those in the Sphere were incurable. And in knowing that, we could also know that there was no loss in wiping them out. Unfortunate, tragic in fact. But existence is filled with such undeniable misfortunes. This is what makes mankind special; he alone has the ability to carve glory from the field of misfortunes and despair. To cut out that which plagues, and cultivate that which nurtures. One would hope that there are at least some in the Sphere who can learn from us. I believe there are many. But if there are not, IF the Sphere is solely populated with deviants so entrenched in their horrid ways that they refuse to accept anything else, why should they be allowed to exist? And not only exist, but to occupy our one true home, Terra? Should its soil not be given the chance to wash their polluted blood from its banks, and be allowed to thus grow life anew?

Third, and this is where our sights must be set. We invade the Sphere, and once its inhabitants see how superior our technology is, they begin to question whether or not our ways may be superior as well. They see our complete devotion to battle, but also see how it is so fully balanced against a minimal amount of battle. They see that we were able to carve out strong, undeterred societies and values from a few hundred people landing on planets that could hardly provide food and shelter for them. And how we not only survived, but flourished, creating new technology and new ways of thought despite our exile. Those who say we should come into the Sphere and attempt this with words fail to understand human nature. By telling the realms of the Sphere that improvement -nay, salvation- is preferable, you are also telling them that it is optional. That their own ways our just as valid as our own. If this were true, we could have survived the Exodus without changing our ways. The salvation we bring is only optional to those who do not know what is good for them. And so we must carry our message with arms as well as tongues, for there will always be those who choose to plug their ears.

*takes a deep breath*

























Ok.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Aethon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

I have my mech and my skill; I need nothing more to back up my position.

That said, you seem to want an answer as to why I prefer the Warden side of the debate, since you are trying to win an argument in which I never participated. I have a few minutes, and this is an interesting topic, so I will play ball while I wait for my pasta to boil.

First off, I consider myself a moderate Warden; while I believe that the people of the Inner Sphere are to be protected, I do agree that deliverance from the tyranny imposed upon them by some of their leaders will require military action. I do not believe, however, that EVERY state in the Inner Sphere should be 'liberated' without question. The bandit kingdoms, and any oppressive realms should be carefully liberated, but any realm that grants its citizens true freedom should not be needlessly engaged; rather, these states should be invited to join the reincarnated Star League as participants and member states. The benefits of membership to the people of that state, as well as its leaders, will be encouragement enough to join.

Alternatively, simply steamrolling every government in the Inner Sphere will lead to anarchy, interruption of services and trade that the common people require, and will erase certain governments that some of these people have built from the ground up to suit their needs. This would cause undue strife to the people of the Inner Sphere, and that was NOT the intention of the Star League OR the man who led the Exodus.

Consider the reason for the Exodus, the intentions of Aleksandr Kerensky, and his belief that we should be a beacon of hope to the masses of the Inner Sphere; it is difficult to be a beacon of hope when one approaches with his weapon drawn. However, if we protect the people of the Inner Sphere, while letting our actions speak for us, we can truly become that beacon of hope, an inspiration to the Inner Sphere.

I give you the following message for consideration, the sender of which should be obvious:

"Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.

"Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.

"Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.

"Farewell."

Those are not the words of a conqueror, or someone who would wish a great war upon the whole of the Inner Sphere. It is Kerensky himself...the man AND his actions throughout his life...which gives me cause to respect the Warden philosophy.

I am not trying to 'convert' anyone to my point of view, and I expect many to find what they believe are flaws in my decision; however, at this point, it truly is a matter of opinion, since Aleksandr Kerensky is not here to provide a definitive answer as to the intention of his words.

Therefore, while I respect your choice, I must agree to disagree.

Anything is possible; my point was that it would not be possible without a cost vastly disproportionate to the value of the goal. Such waste is not the way of the Clans.

Thank you for making my point for me. That is the quote I use to make my case every time.

My point is you have NO argument because there should never have been a Warden view to begin with.

Quote

Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.

Perhaps firstly is not a certainty. Should is a reactionary word; If A happens then we do B. The problem is, A NEVER happened. MY proof? FOUR Succession Wars + 1 Kentares Massacre. It is there in black & white. Thanks for assisting me with my post.

Following up on that:



It is clearly stated, Wardens want us to believe what they think the words that were said, mean.

When asked for specifics:



So we were supposed to head home after all this time, with all the hopes & dreams of a people eagerly waiting to return, to get back to the IS & wait for E.T. to show up? Nonsense. So we get back & what?

"Hello Inner Sphere. Fear not. We are the descendants of Kerensky. We have had enough of our self imposed exile & have come home, sort of. We will not realy be coming home. We will be staying on the edge of space here just watching you all kill yourselves for some noble ***** greed. Yes we have Warships & mechs but fret not, we will only fight E.T. if & when he shows up."

NONSENSE

The words are there. The Inner Sphere NEVER stepped back from the abyss, on the contrary they dove off head first. I follow what the Great Father said, not I think he might have meant.

Stepping out of the BT universe for a bit, this is not someone who watched Ducktales & said "I want to be rich like Scrooge McDuck & bathe in money." I would get you mean you would want to be on the same level of financial security not that you would actually like to strip to your shorts & dive into a pool full of coins.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 01 July 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[Aethon]

You do realize that a threat from outside the Inner Sphere has arisen, right? It is called Goonswarm.

But, seriously...I like that there are both sides; if all the Clans worked together in perfect harmony, the Inner Sphere would quickly become a very boring place, until a Battlestar Galactica-type thing happened, and the Star League fell again, with a new Exodus, etc.

[Squidhead Jax]

Aethon, on 01 July 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

You do realize that a threat from outside the Inner Sphere has arisen, right? It is called Goonswarm.

But, seriously...I like that there are both sides; if all the Clans worked together in perfect harmony, the Inner Sphere would quickly become a very boring place, until a Battlestar Galactica-type thing happened, and the Star League fell again, with a new Exodus, etc.

Shhhh, if we don't speak its name, it might not arise...

[Aethon]

Squidhead Jax, on 01 July 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Shhhh, if we don't speak its name, it might not arise...

lol They're good in World of Tanks; you should be glad they're in the Confederation.

[Squidhead Jax]

Aethon, on 01 July 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

lol They're good in World of Tanks; you should be glad they're in the Confederation.

Oh, they're on our side? Summon away, then. We need some actual numbers...

[CCC Dober]

Is it possible to shoo the goons away from this game and have them rather stick to the simple game? I mean, they will only get confused when there is no auto-aim and no P2W or pet vehicles of the devs. Why should they bother to switch in the first place?

Here's me hoping they follow the way of least resistance heh