Barantor, on 26 November 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:
What? I've gotten 8 kills in a 5SS, direct damage with a 42 point alpha. It wasn't especially hard, but I know the game fairly well now. I think you've confused "brawl" with "furball".
My definition of brawl is getting in short/medium range and using things like medium pulse and srms to engage an enemy. It is hard to miss at those ranges and easy to get hit. A furball is when you are out in a brawl with about half the team engaging and that is a lot harder to bring in kills since damage can be focused on one mech by many.
I don't know where the pretentious comment comes from, just describing my experiences?
A brawl vs. furball, I guess we have different opinions on what each is. For me a brawl and 'furball' are the same thing really, it's just that a 'furball' is more intense with more 'mechs. 'Brawling' is just a few less 'mechs I guess... Yes, it's possible for a single 'mech to brawl multiple lesser skilled 'mechs one or two at a time, and get 8 kills, but again, the point is in a brawl or furball you're not doing damage to an enemy who can't see you.
In a match with equally skilled opponents '8 kills' not something that is anywhere near easy, nor common, unlike LRMs.
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Where are you getting those numbers from? I've found that LRMs has increased in pug queue significantly just because of the Clan mechs being able to mount them and clan LRMs having no minimal range?
It's an observation made over the last several challenges, not just by me but by damn near every other half-way observant player in this game.
Every time there's a challenge the number of LRM boating mechs that drop increases, it does, it's a fact, and it increases CONSIDERABLY, hence, EVERY dang time we have these challenges, there's post after post after post of people calling for LRM nerfs, and after the challenge is over, we see less LRM boats drop and the number of "new" LRM nerf posts decreases.
Now, I'm not calling for a LRM nerf, I'm calling for a change to the scoring so that damage that is occurring because the computer is guiding the weapon to the target, and where most damage is done with the assistance of other 'mechs, and taking advantage of all the plethora of enhancement modules and equipment.
LRMs in and of themselves ARE FINE.
It's the scoring that encourages a majority of people to default to LRM boat usage that needs to change.
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Except for the fact that a lot of your kills in the video you used as an example you could've direct fired with er large lasers, since you tagged the majority anyway. You had direct line of fire on those mechs, thus you could've just shot them. Lasers aren't hard to use either, it's just aim the flashlight.
Except that I did a majority of my damage with the LRMs, opening up crit locations so that the lasers could finish them off.
As a side note: You may not have noticed, but missiles are currently designed with a 'crit averse' logic. Take a stationary 'mech and start firing LRMs at it, watch how the missiles start landing when locations start getting darker. But that 'crit averse' logic is more or less defeated when you go from 2 or 3 mechs firing missiles at a target verses 6 or 8, or more...
Back on topic, in that drop we really on had two 'mechs boating LRMs, mine and another, and the affect was fairly significant, especially since most of the missiles I fired and hit I did not have line of site, yet I was able to have a significant affect on the enemy with them, however, had there been no spotting and I'd been limited to my own direct line of sight visuals for the aiming, I'd have been a lot less effective.
The advantage is the ease at which I can take advantage of what my teammate's are doing.
For CHALLENGE scoring this seems a bit wrong as the other members of the team who are doing the spotting TYPICALLY aren't getting any score benefit from assisting me. The typical challenge calc has been something on the order of:
((Kills * x)+(Assists * y)+(damage on enemy - damage on team)/15)
So... Missile boats who are primarily utilizing indirect fire, getting lots of damage, lots of assist and maybe a few kills primarily benefit from the efforts of the rest of the team at very low risk to themselves.
While those team members who are in line of sight really aren't rewarded for the risks they are taking.
This encourages a shift from the standard mix of 2 or 3 missile boats being dropped per side each match to 6 to 9 being dropped per match during challenges.
Reduce/eliminate the scoring vs. risk advantage these 'mechs get during challenges and the problem of 'too much' LRM usage during challenges will go away.
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I'm not saying you aren't a good player, that's actually the point. You are using your knowledge of the game mechanics themselves (piloting, positioning, map knowledge) to say that one weapon system is 'easy'. I'm saying that is unfair since you don't take into account the rest of the skill that it takes just to survive in a match to get any kills whatsoever, or get set up for them.
As one who has experience with every weapon system and darn near every weapon layout possible in this game, I can say from my experience of playing since closed beta to date, has led me to have a very informed opinion that for the most part LRM boating is "EASY MODE" in MWO.
All things taken into account, it's easier to do well with computer guided missiles than it is to do well with any other weapon system. LRMs are by far the easiest. Streak missiles is another subject but those have, at best, a 'situational' ease.
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I'm not comparing sniping heads and lrming. One is obviously more difficult than the other. There isn't a challenge for sniping heads, though there is an achievement.
It seemed you were, and if not, fine, yet, the fact that there isn't currently an achievement for LRM usage ought to tell us something about them.
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My whole point is that there are levels with weapon system knowledge.
Hitting an enemy at 100m with gauss rifles while they aren't moving is not hard.
Hitting an enemy at 1000m wth gauss rifles while they aren't moving is harder.
Hitting an enemy with LRMs in the open with tag and artemis isn't hard (you showed that in the video).
Hitting an enemy with LRMs behind cover between you and them is harder.
Yes, but knowledge isn't skill. That's why whenever I've seen a PGI employee drop in a match, 19 times out of 20, they appear to do poorly vs. the rest of us. These employees would be in a position to have the most 'knowledge' of the weapon systems, but it's the ability to put that knowledge to use that measures the skill.
Unfortunately with LRMs... You only need a little knowledge, and very little practice to be able to utilize them to near their maximum potential. The ultimate result is they don't require much skill.
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You used a video where the majority of your kills were with tag, in the open staggered fire, with artemis and tons of ammo on an assault. Your positioning and teamwork attributed a lot to this. I saw very little in the way of AMS on the other team. The assaults on the enemy team walked out into the water in the open. You devoted a lot of tonnage to LRMs on an assault mech when now, there are only so many assaults per team, whereas then you guys had 7 assaults.
See where I'm going with this?
Sure, but if they just sat behind buildings cowering in fear of my missiles, they'd still have been just as dead. AT SOME POINT if you have direct fire weapons you HAVE to come out from behind cover to fire them.
Unlike missiles, that can utilize what your team members see to provide you your indirect targeting. During a challenge, why should I be allowed full score for that?
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If I linked a video where the enemy peeked over a hill at me and I head shot them with gauss rifles at 100m and called them 'easy' you would flip you snots.
Because the level of skill I utilize to headshot someone playing peek-a-boo vs. the skill I utilize to launch LRMs at the same target when someone else is doing the spotting, or because I can take advantage of a UAV, are "snot loads" different. We're back to Pintos vs Space Shuttles again.
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Are LRMs easy to get some hits on the enemy with? Yeah they are, they track, so are streaks.
Are LRMs so easy they are just one dimensional? No, there are ways you can make yourself better with them (you even proved this in your own video).
Streaks are easy but the one thing streaks require that LRMs don't is direct line of sight, and the fact that the range is so limited also adds a level of risk not experienced by LRM boaters, so now we're comparing apples and pears. Similar, but not quite the same.
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I don't think they need to be taken out of challenges. Hell I got a 2 second hit with lasers on a dying mech right before another person cored it out for an assist for one of my points so should that not be counted either?
I've made my points, like em or not I think LRMs are here to stay pretty much like they are, they have been adjusted in the past and caused so many issues. I think they are right where they need to be.
Actually you bring up an interesting point. Perhaps challenges should be scored as follows:
(solo kill * X)+(assists * Y)+(((damage on enemy-LRM damage)-damage on team)/15))
This would reward players for only for the kills where they did the most damage, still reward for assists, and discouraging the over use of LRMs.
Edited by Dimento Graven, 26 November 2014 - 11:25 AM.
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