94 replies to this topic

[damonwolf]

UrsusMorologus, on 26 November 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

AMS does nothing vs LRM 40 in those situations either

Nothing? Really? AMS will knock down several missiles out of that LRM 40. It's damage mitigation and worth it if it helps to save your ass, or a teammates ass until the TAG get's lifted, the NARC goes away, or you get to cover.

[Felicitatem Parco]

AMS is just like adding armor when you are already at max armor.

It's a supplemental armor add-on that only works against LRMs. It's not a waste of space if your goal is maximum armor, because for every 30 missiles that you prevent from hitting you or a teammate, you've just saved your team 1 ton of armor.

If you are saving weight by dropping armor, then you may not be interested in AMS. However, if you are maxing armor and want more than what's allowed, then adding AMS will give you additional protection from the enemy that would be normally prohibited by armor limits.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 26 November 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[UrsusMorologus]

I use AMS when (1) dont have ECM (2) mech is too slow to break LOS reliably (3) extra tonnage available

On the other hand, I have 15 keeper mechs and 16 Radar Deprivation modules

People posting here like AMS is the answer to LRM spam, it isnt by a long shot. Its nice when 3-4 other people have it, then it starts working, by itself its almost pointless. Earlier today in Bog, I jumped up on one of the elevated spots, and must have been target Alpha because I was dead by LRMs before I could get back down. I looked at the list of damage and it was LRM-5, LRM-10, LRM-15, LRM-15 Artemis, C-LRM 10, and a couple of projectile weapons. AMS wouldnt have done anything vs that. Nothing. Its nice, its not a cure for anything.

[R Razor]

If Lurms aren't easy mode and require inordinate skill to use, why do you never see them in the comp scene, always see them in the pug scene and see double and triple the amount when a challenge comes along that rewards damage and assists?

Nuff said.

[topgun505]

And to the OP, the below is why you don't see AMS. It generally isn't worth it. In group que you generally don't need it because both sides understand that with sufficient communication/coordination you can maneuver well enough that the LRM threat is minimized and they will be largely ineffective.

In Pug que you don't see them much because if you mount an AMS, but nobody else does, a single AMS isn't going to do diddly squat vs a dedicated LRM-70 boat. And your AMS will be ticking away its ammo constantly until it's out of ammo in just a minute or two (not to mention gives up your position). If AMS were brought in mass then yes they would be far more effective ... but you just can't count on other people bringing it. So most people rather put on Radar Derp which makes terrain cover actually work like it's supposed to (and thus blocks far more missiles than AMS would take out) and it doesn't take up space and tonnage.

AMS is a solution. It is not, however, an EFFECTIVE solution unless yer running a KF with 3 of them. If boats were limited to LRM-40 or less maybe they'd be worth something as single units.

You want to see a LRM deterrent? Run 10-20 games in the solo que with Radar Derp then run another 10-20 without and see the difference.

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 November 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

OP is right, about 20% or less of PUGs bring AMS...which is why I don't bring AMS and I PUG.

If I dedicate 1.5 or 2 tons to AMS, and the crit space in the location it has to go, the following happens...

I'm in a match and LRMs are incoming...
My AMS only blocks a small portion, so I still get hit and take damage. My AMS is also trying to help surrounding PUGs who are out in the open and getting rained on. Within a couple minutes, my AMS ammo is gone anyway.

Edited by topgun505, 26 November 2014 - 10:19 PM.

[Roadbuster]

topgun505, on 26 November 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

You want to see a LRM deterrent? Run 10-20 games in the solo que with Radar Derp then run another 10-20 without and see the difference.

To be honest, if you know how to use cover and move with minimal exposure, you don't need Radar Deprivation at all. It won't save you from making a mistake or from getting narced for example.
Against LRM40 or more, fired in a pack, a single AMS won't do very much. Maybe shoot down 5 missiles of the pack.
Against LRMs fired as constant stream, AMS works quite well, eliminating alot of the constant cockpit shaking.

Imho, Radar Deprivation is a nice module for fast mechs while AMS is better for slow mechs who have problems to break LoS.

Prosperity Park brought up a nice point of view.
Think of AMS as added armor, because, against LRMs, that's what it is.
It's a 100% reliable dmg reducing piece of equipment.

Let's do some rough "math":
If we say 10 AMS rounds shoot down 1 missile, that means 1t AMS ammo is enough to shoot down 200LRMs.
Now let's say only 50% of these 200 missiles would hit.
This means 100 dmg would be dealt, and if 30 points of armor is ~1t that would mean that the 1,5t AMS+ammo would be worth ~3t of armor.

[The Boz]

The 100 extra HP is rather deceptive, because it doesn't stop the FIRST 100 LRMs, but a total of 100, at 3 per launch. Stopping 3 missiles out of 40 is rather... meh?

[Black Ivan]

AMS does not save anybody from the omnipresent LRM spam that is running around in MWO.

[Roadbuster]

The Boz, on 27 November 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

The 100 extra HP is rather deceptive, because it doesn't stop the FIRST 100 LRMs, but a total of 100, at 3 per launch. Stopping 3 missiles out of 40 is rather... meh?

Black Ivan, on 27 November 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

AMS does not save anybody from the omnipresent LRM spam that is running around in MWO.

Where does it say that AMS should eliminate the threat of LRMs? Neither AMS nor Radar Deprivation do this.
It's a secure way to reduce incomming damage through LRMs, and, imho, the 1,25-1,50t are well worth it.

It depends on the mech you use of course. A light mech might not want to equip AMS, but an assault mech should have no problem equipping one.

[The Boz]

I agree that it's worth the weight, especially in a team, and my only mechs that don't carry AMS are two CN9s that run 98kph, but still... LRMs need a change, badly. Something that makes them less broken, more reliable, and less gang-rapey.

[GalmOne]

AMS is only realy effective in groups but you will be blown away by how good it is when you have enought

Some time ago during an event weekend i made a group with 6 people, we had 2 KTX and everyone brought atleast 1 AMS

What happened is that we had 11 AMS operational and at some point we actualy decided that it was better to remove ECM altogether, the sheer amount of AMS fire actualy made all of us consume less AMS ammo overall and at the same time rendered any missile weapon highly ineffective, hell, even 60 lrms were getting blown out of the sky instantly
Then all you needed to do was close in and take your shots while all those lrms boat were sitting with over 60% heat but no damage dealt

Just to show that lrms actualy have so many ways to be countered that it truly becomes a "high risk, high reward" kind of weapon, even if it has a low skill level compared to other weapons

[Ljusdahl]

Adding a C-bill reward for AMS is definitely a step in the right direction, especially since it would help PUG games more than groups.

[Kin3ticX]

Should read "If you don't like LRMs, bring direct fire and situational awareness, unless it's Caustic Valley, then kiss your #$% goodbye"

[Willard Phule]

damonwolf, on 26 November 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Nothing? Really? AMS will knock down several missiles out of that LRM 40. It's damage mitigation and worth it if it helps to save your ass, or a teammates ass until the TAG get's lifted, the NARC goes away, or you get to cover.

But, if you're in the solo queue, odds are good that you've got just as many LRMs as the other team. It IS the preferred weapon of the inexperienced, after all.

Wouldn't logic dictate that the team that covers it's LRMs with ECM the best will have a tactical advantage? Personally, I'd rather see a team with 12 BAP/CAP than a team with 12 AMS. It only takes a couple of guys to get within 360m to shut them down and open them up for friendly rain.

[Almond Brown]

The Boz, on 26 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Historically, bitching about LRMs on the forums has proven to be a more effective method of lowering LRM damage than equipping AMS.

Damage has bottomed out. Players can't really want LRM's below 1 pt. of damage each right?

Brody319, on 26 November 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Well if we have to post PSAs and topics asking people to bring AMS, then clearly a large portion of the population is not bringing it.

When they learn that it is not "only" about the dakka, perhaps the noise will subside. There are ways to play other than "rambo'in" it and hoping they don't see you coming.

Brody319, on 26 November 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

So putting in a c-bill reward for it would mean that portion of the population would bring AMS. my original comment stands.

CHAT would spread the good word...

UrsusMorologus, on 26 November 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

AMS does nothing vs LRM 40 in those situations either

Thank the man for Cover then right?

[Almond Brown]

The Boz, on 27 November 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

The 100 extra HP is rather deceptive, because it doesn't stop the FIRST 100 LRMs, but a total of 100, at 3 per launch. Stopping 3 missiles out of 40 is rather... meh?

LOL! Only if it would take 38 of 40 to kill you and when only 37 arrive you survive.

[The Boz]

Yes, but then think about how you got to where you are, at 38 CT/ST HP. Would an extra 1.5-2 tons of engine power or firepower have helped avoid some of the damage earlier in the match?

[Johnny Z]

I am going to do you all a huge favour, not sure why because none of you deserve it. Just kidding.

AMS is about if that 1.5 tons put into defense is worth 1.5 tons of armor put into defense or not. I am not even sure what it would be but I guess between 5 and 10 tons depending on the match.

I have a dual AMS STK with 4 tons of AMS ammo, Range 5, Overload and I can assure you no missile boat stands a chance against it one on one and it takes several huge missile boats for me to seek cover.

But heres the favour, with my STK's set up base missile turrets do not penetrate at all. WIth the upcomming faction wars base defense battles AMS may we worth far more than the 1.5 tons standard or even the 5 tons my STK uses and 2 module slots.

Again, my STK's set up completely shoots down a bases missile turrets missiles, in case someone trolls this reply and says that set up would only shoot down 5 missiles etc.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 November 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[MountainCopper]

Jonny Slam, on 25 November 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

If you don't want to get killed by missle... mount a anti missile system.

Good joke. As one AMS is shooting down what, 3 missiles from an IS launcher and maybe 5 missiles from a Clan LRM20 ?
The average LRM count is around 50 or 60. So you get a little something from 1.5 tons invested in an AMS, but for defence it's a joke compared to ECM or Radar Deprivation...

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 25 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Puggers will never commit to bringing an AMS without some kind of c-bill reward encouraging them. Just the way pugs work.

In PUGlife, if my mech can mount AMS I find at least 1.5 tons to shave from my weapons load for it... Offer 3 tons for IS mechs (BAP has always been a must have for me) or 2.5 tons for clans...

Guess I'm a strange pilot.